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OfflineCoaster
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Israel utilizing white phosphorus
    #9556383 - 01/06/09 07:39 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

According to the Genva convention incendiary weapons are not permitted in civilian areas
yet Israel is using white phosphorus, a notorious incendiary weapon on Gaza
in their defense they admit using it, but they say its purely used as a smoke screen
or a fog of war if you will, and not for killing therefore it is a legitamte use
WP is very good as a smoke screen, do you think it is needed
i dont no how many people were killed by WP so far in gaza but im betting its a heap



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Coaster]
    #9556619 - 01/06/09 09:03 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Article 1
Definitions

For the purpose of this Protocol:

  1. "Incendiary weapon" means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target.
      (a) Incendiary weapons can take the form of, for example, flame throwers, fougasses, shells, rockets, grenades, mines, bombs and other containers of incendiary substances.
      (b) Incendiary weapons do not include:
      (i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems;
      (ii) Munitions designed to combine penetration, blast or fragmentation effects with an additional incendiary effect, such as armour-piercing projectiles, fragmentation shells, explosive bombs and similar combined-effects munitions in which the incendiary effect is not specifically designed to cause burn injury to persons, but to be used against military objectives, such as armoured vehicles, aircraft and installations or facilities.



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Invisiblenw_shroomy
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Seuss]
    #9556835 - 01/06/09 09:54 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)


You have to admit though,It is cool


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Edited by nw_shroomy (01/06/09 09:54 AM)

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: nw_shroomy]
    #9557012 - 01/06/09 10:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

White phosphorous is a weapon I would not wish even on my worst enemies...

But seriously, it's VERY useful, and it is NOT prohibited.


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InvisibleArden
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Minstrel]
    #9557224 - 01/06/09 11:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

All is (supposedly) fair in love and war.

In situations where entire cities are demolished to the point where families are destroyed and people's lives are ruined beyond comprehension, does it really matter how that happens?

It's like saying death by Rambo knife is a little too extreme, but using a much classier and "moral" version of the Spanish sword is completely acceptable.

Many of the powerful developed nations abide by their own standards, and only give public credence to existing agreements (UN or otherwise) in order to save face. Atrocities take place on every possible level, and yet people think legislating how violence is committed is an intelligent solution or preventative?

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Arden]
    #9557359 - 01/06/09 12:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

There is nothing about war, that could be considered humane. However, don't assume that being "anti-war" is more humane!  (i.e., Sudan, Somalia; should someone go to war and fix these countries problems, or is the anti-war stance more humane?)

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Arden]
    #9557402 - 01/06/09 12:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The restraint on the force used is really just a matter of what the enemy's retaliation will be.  Throughout WW2, both the Germans and the allies were ready to deploy chemical weapons, but as a retaliatory measure, in case the enemy dared to use them.  Since neither side opened up that can of worms, WW2 never saw the gas attacks notable in WW1.  Same with the cold war.  The only restraint on the use of atomic munitions was the threat of retaliation. 

So, to answer to the question, does it really matter how bad the weapons used are?  Absolutely.  Sow your seeds, reap the whirlwind.

Of course, this is just the practical aspect of restraint on force.  The moral implications are far more complex.


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Edited by Minstrel (01/06/09 12:13 PM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Coaster]
    #9557547 - 01/06/09 12:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
i dont no how many people were killed by WP so far in gaza but im betting its a heap





willie petes dont always kill, a little contact leaves severe
disfigurement, why is white phosphorus all of a sudden an issue,
the US has been using it in Iraq and Afghanistan since we started
fighting over there

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9557798 - 01/06/09 01:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> why is white phosphorus all of a sudden an issue

Because somebody made a youtube video... :rolleyes:


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Coaster]
    #9558746 - 01/06/09 04:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

OMG Israel committing war crimes against Palestinian civilians? No fucking way :rolleyes:

Zionist scum


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #9558903 - 01/06/09 05:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> OMG Israel committing war crimes against Palestinian civilians? No fucking way :rolleyes:

Open mouth, insert foot... at least with respect to what Coaster claimed... assuming you read my reply to Coaster and understand the definition of "Incendiary weapon" (or more importantly, what is not considered an incendiary weapon).


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Seuss]
    #9558930 - 01/06/09 05:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I read it. You always seem to have convenient definitions that make you right. Israel kills civilians, probably horrifically.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #9558986 - 01/06/09 05:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> Israel kills civilians, probably horrifically.

Hamas kills civilians, known horrifically.  Both sides are equally at fault in my mind.  However, my 'convenient definition' is correct.  Phosphorus smoke flares are not considered incendiary weapons by the Geneavoa Conventions, thus their use is not a violation as implied by Coaster.


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Seuss]
    #9559002 - 01/06/09 05:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

And because they're allowed by the geneva convention there's absolutely no way that burning WP could ever get on a palestinian civilian.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #9559111 - 01/06/09 05:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

So WP getting on civilians is a war crime?

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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Redstorm]
    #9559126 - 01/06/09 05:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No, the initial OMG warcrimes post was pretty sarcastic. War is hell, killing people is never pleasant. I just like to pop in and say Israel is wrong as often as possible.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #9559167 - 01/06/09 05:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> I just like to pop in and say Israel is wrong as often as possible.

Why not admit that Hamas is wrong as well?  Or do you feel that indiscriminately attacking civilians is acceptable?


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Seuss]
    #9559185 - 01/06/09 05:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Because you have to take a side and Hamas represents the side that I think is in the right. They do commit atrocities as well, but if Palestine had the military options Israel does it may not have come to that.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #9559204 - 01/06/09 05:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If they had the military options Israel has they would have murdered millions of Israelis.  For fun.  But they are moronic murdering troglodytes, so they don't.


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9559213 - 01/06/09 05:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Right because Palestine wants to destroy Israel rite? And OMG Hamas is Hitler and Israel can never be wrong because of the holocaust. And the Palestinians, well they're brown so they've gotta be murderers. Never mind those dudes with the deadly helicopter gunships.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #9559272 - 01/06/09 06:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> And OMG Hamas is Hitler

No, Hamas is a criminal gang of thugs that are pretending to play "country" while indiscriminately attacking civilians... unfortunately for the Palestinian people...

> And the Palestinians, well they're brown so they've gotta be murderers.

I think this is the mistake you are making... Hamas is not Palestine and Palestine is not Hamas.  Hamas is a small group of armed men that attack and kill civilians while using Palestinians for shields, and pretending to stand up for the rights of the Palestinian People.  It is Hamas that is doing this, not the Palestinian people.  These are two different things.  One can dislike Hamas, and still like Palestinians... the concept is not mutually exclusive.

If Israel were attacking 'the brown skins' (:rolleyes: not everybody is racist) then the west bank would be hurting right now as well.


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Seuss]
    #9559312 - 01/06/09 06:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Just so you know, Hamas is also a political organization. A political organization that hold majority seats in the Palestinian National Authority. So yeah... if they're common thugs I suppose that makes the Israeli army uncommon thugs?


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Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #9559314 - 01/06/09 06:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have an actual report about this?  Because that 6 second video is useless.  As usual, Coaster has supplied no source.


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9559321 - 01/06/09 06:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Not I, I tend to just disregard Coaster's posts in here


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Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #9559332 - 01/06/09 06:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Just so you know, Hamas is also a political organization. A political organization that hold majority seats in the Palestinian National Authority. So yeah... if they're common thugs I suppose that makes the Israeli army uncommon thugs?




What makes them thugs is their endless rocket barrage, stated desire to obliterate all Israelis and willingness to sacrifice any and all of their own people to further those aims.  You may have heard about it.


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9559365 - 01/06/09 06:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)



Result of an Israeli rocket barrage. They're doing those now. You may have heard about it.


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Coaster]
    #9559908 - 01/06/09 07:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:





GREAT SCOTT!  THEY'RE USING BUKKAKE!


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #9559918 - 01/06/09 07:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:


Result of an Israeli rocket barrage. They're doing those now. You may have heard about it.




And the lesson here, kids, is don't pick fights out of your weight.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #9560931 - 01/06/09 10:07 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
killing people is never pleasant.




depends on which side of the killing you're on

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: TGRR]
    #9560945 - 01/06/09 10:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It's not as if the Palestinians asked for Israel's prescience and constant aggressions against their territory. I don't think either side is inherently "right" but I'm not blind to the aggressions of both sides either.

Anyway on a broader note I think this is a relevant political issue because right now Iraq is developing nuclear weapons capable of attacking Israel (or is at least posturing as such). Since Israel also has nukes this is a dangerous standoff for the whole world.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Seuss]
    #9560947 - 01/06/09 10:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Hamas is a small group of armed men that attack and kill civilians while using Palestinians for shields





the IDF is a large group of well armed, well equipped men that
attack and kill civilians while using palestinians as human shields

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9560957 - 01/06/09 10:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Anyway on a broader note I think this is a relevant political issue because right now Iraq is developing nuclear weapons capable of attacking Israel (or is at least posturing as such). Since Israel also has nukes this is a dangerous standoff for the whole world.





I believe you meant Iran, and frankly, I'm glad they're working on nukes, it levels the playing field

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9560974 - 01/06/09 10:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Anyway on a broader note I think this is a relevant political issue because right now Iraq is developing nuclear weapons capable of attacking Israel (or is at least posturing as such). Since Israel also has nukes this is a dangerous standoff for the whole world.





I believe you meant Iran, and frankly, I'm glad they're working on nukes, it levels the playing field




Means more funny, anyway, even if it might mean the end of the series.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9560984 - 01/06/09 10:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Anyway on a broader note I think this is a relevant political issue because right now Iraq is developing nuclear weapons capable of attacking Israel (or is at least posturing as such). Since Israel also has nukes this is a dangerous standoff for the whole world.





I believe you meant Iran, and frankly, I'm glad they're working on nukes, it levels the playing field





Oh, it will be level all right.




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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #9561034 - 01/06/09 10:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Wait that's no good that's where all the oil is. You thing gas prices and pollution are bad now.

Yea I meant Iran sorry for the error.

You may say it levels the playing field but I'm afraid whenever a new religious fanatic gets a new nuclear toy. They may not show the same restraint of US/USSR or Axes/Allies.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9561060 - 01/06/09 10:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Wait that's no good that's where all the oil is.




can you think of a quicker way to get us off of this foreign oil addiction?

Quote:

They may not show the same restraint of US/USSR or Axes/Allies.





and you believe this is a bad thing?

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9561083 - 01/06/09 10:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

no but other methods may be more profitable for the US.

I may add that when a considerable amount of nuclear material is detonated it will get into the atmosphere and spread around the world. This is why all testing is done underground nowadays.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (01/06/09 10:32 PM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9561201 - 01/06/09 10:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

next you'll be telling me how the camel spider may suffer if there's a nuclear blast in it's immediate vicinity,

obviously these risks are worth taking

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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9561542 - 01/06/09 11:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have an actual report about this?  Because that 6 second video is useless.  As usual, Coaster has supplied no source.




http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

This is the only direct link I've been able to find.  All other links are linking to this.  Not sure how credible this is, but knowing you, not at all.  :smirk:


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #9561626 - 01/07/09 12:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

it's questionable, Brittan claims to have banned the use of white
phosphorus in '97  and say they use other agents to produce smoke
the article says the brits were using it in 2003 in 'other wars'

what ever happened to those good old smoke grenades for producing smoke

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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9561904 - 01/07/09 12:53 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

They don't burn through flesh quite as well :wink:


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Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9561990 - 01/07/09 01:18 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
next you'll be telling me how the camel spider may suffer if there's a nuclear blast in it's immediate vicinity,

obviously these risks are worth taking




Are you being sarcastic or serious?


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9562796 - 01/07/09 06:59 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
next you'll be telling me how the camel spider may suffer if there's a nuclear blast in it's immediate vicinity,

obviously these risks are worth taking




Are you being sarcastic or serious?





hahahaha.... let me have the button for a few minutes and we'll see

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #9563008 - 01/07/09 08:26 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:


Result of an Israeli rocket barrage. They're doing those now. You may have heard about it.




Palestinian territory is probably the worst place to be injured.  Instead of being rushed to a hospital to receive medical care, you can expect to be  paraded before cameras, with your clothes pulled open to expose your wounds for publicity, risking shock and further infection.  You are worth more to Hamas as a causality on camera, rather than alive and healthy.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #9563287 - 01/07/09 09:25 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Penguarky Tunguin said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have an actual report about this?  Because that 6 second video is useless.  As usual, Coaster has supplied no source.




http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

This is the only direct link I've been able to find.  All other links are linking to this.  Not sure how credible this is, but knowing you, not at all.  :smirk:




December 5.  LOL.  Can we ban the trolls Coaster and Prisoner 1?


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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
f n o r d
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9563588 - 01/07/09 10:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

At least Coaster!


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Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9564050 - 01/07/09 11:51 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Penguarky Tunguin said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have an actual report about this?  Because that 6 second video is useless.  As usual, Coaster has supplied no source.




http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

This is the only direct link I've been able to find.  All other links are linking to this.  Not sure how credible this is, but knowing you, not at all.  :smirk:




December 5.  LOL.  Can we ban the trolls Coaster and Prisoner 1?





wait a second... would that mean that the israelis were fighting before the end of the cease fire?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Israel utilizing white phosphorus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9564297 - 01/07/09 12:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Nope.  It means the whole thread is a canard.


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