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Invisiblesuperpimp
The boss of thefamily

Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 8,706
Loc: Philadelphia/NYC
Meditation question
    #955426 - 10/12/02 05:22 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)

I have decided I want to learn about meditation, but I really don't know where to start. I am not really a spiritual kind of guy, but I think meditating might help me to be more focused and centered. Anyone have any advice on where to start?


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Anonymous

Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #955436 - 10/12/02 05:30 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)

Read the FAQ.

Oh, sorry there isn't one! :grin:

There are a couple fo threads recently discussing the various aspects of meditation.

Generally, I focus my eyes on an object until I am in trance.

Lie down and get comfortable.

Stare at something.

Zone out.

Repeat when necessary.

Check out the other threads.

Nice to see you down here! :smile:

Welcome!


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OfflineBuddha1
journeyman
Registered: 05/22/02
Posts: 73
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Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #955527 - 10/12/02 06:26 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)

I am far from an expert on this topic but here is some of what I have learned.

Meditation is being totally aware, totally in the present. To meditate, watch your mind. Its hard to stay focused without your mind wondering. So let your mind wonder. But be aware of why your mind is wandering. Watch it jump from one idea to another. If you put in any effort to control your mind you are not meditating. Controlling your mind is the opposite of meditation. You cannot have a goal when you meditate. Just be aware of everything. Your breathing, your heartbeat, your mind wondering, everything. Once you have practiced a while you will be able to control your mind and stop it from wondering. A common misconception is that your eyes should be closed. Your eyes can be closed, but it is better that you find a beautiful place to sit outdoors, with plants and animals and a beautiful landscape. Be aware of everything as a whole, and see the beauty in everything. Dont focus on any one idea, be open to everything.

If you are really interested in how to meditate, check out a "meditation for beginners" book. And if you are interested in what meditation is, and what everything is for that matter, check out some books written by Jiddu Krishnamurti.

Good luck!


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OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 18 years, 16 days
Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #955572 - 10/12/02 07:01 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)

the great thing about meditation is that you don't have to be at all spiritual to engage or appreciate it. but i would recommend these books:
Zen Mind, Beginners Mind by Shunryu Suzuki, roshi
Miracle of Mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hahn
Meditation in Action by Chogyam Trungpa

Hope you find what you are looking for.

Peace,
JP


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OfflineLOPHO.MP
looker

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 101
Loc: Santa Cruz CA.
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #955652 - 10/12/02 07:48 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)


You know what superpimp, I think you can get a lot of good ideas and stuff from reading these books about meditation. These are especially helpful if you want to write a report on meditation or do a research project on different kinds of meditation. But, reading a book about meditation is not meditating.

I know that in our modern United States society DOing something is often replaced or overshadowed by BUYing something. If someone is interested in yoga for example these days they will go to the mall and buy a bunch of yoga gear and books. In the end they probably won't even do yoga that much. After buying something people feel good like they accomplished something, this feeling often replaces the original thing they were going to do.

If I were you I would just try sitting quiet on the floor. Pay some attention to your breathing and see how you feel. Try different things, stare at something like plato suggested. Try lying down on your back. Try silencing your thoughts. Try to observe your own thought processes objectively.
I'm sure that if you try some of these you will feel different results. You can discover what you like. If after doing this for some time you realize you are really into meditation THEN buy a book. However you might ralize meditation is not for you.

My main advice is don't read one type of meditation and decide that is what meditation is and nothing more. There are a lot of different types of meditation from different philosphies. Remember many of these will carry a lot of extra religous baggage. Try to stay focused on the meditative part unless you are also interested in exploring religous beliefs. Most of these schools will say that their way of meditation is the best. I think different forms work for different people.

Good Luck, meditation can be a very powerful tool


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---Still Searching---


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OfflineKemist
Soul ComponentsPrototype IssueM11983MF50 (x_x)

Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 160
Loc: The Orgin
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Meditation question [Re: LOPHO.MP]
    #955797 - 10/12/02 09:51 PM (18 years, 15 days ago)

LOPHO.MP you are so correct on that. i am very guilty of that. i guess having consumerism shoved down my throught since day 1 of my life has made me believe buying something will fill the void in my life. i just wanted to note that because i ust thinking about it and the idea hit me while i was glancing over on your post. i have been working on trying to cut my own trail as much as i can but i still keep a lookout for helpful hints along the way. even is it does come in the form of a purchased item.


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Rafa (x_X)

fuck a sig




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Offlinehyper_dermic
stranger withcandy

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 736
Loc: the land of excess
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #955877 - 10/12/02 10:48 PM (18 years, 15 days ago)

there are diffrences between contemplateing and meditation
thinking or focusing on something is contemplateing....
meditation is silencing the inner voice.... make everything go away.... theres constantly a running dialouge in your head...

theory being that you can recivce from the "spiritual world" "subconcious" or whatever you choose to belive

think of your concious mind as being a lake at the base of a huge moutain
during normal every day conciousness the lake is disturbed and full of ripples (inner dialouge and images)
but during true meditation the lake is calm, and it is only then the lake can reflect the image of the huge moutain....
much like your mind being able to recivce impressions from the divine....

please excuse my spelling, i dropped out of highschool and studied meta-physics instead
[hyp]


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OfflineCaliChronic
member
Registered: 06/23/02
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Loc: Gulf Coast, USA
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Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #958238 - 10/13/02 10:39 PM (18 years, 14 days ago)

simple. read buddhas teachings. he invented trancendental meditation as far as im concerned.

buddhanet.net


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...
overgrow


Edited by CaliChronic (10/13/02 10:43 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #962207 - 10/15/02 05:44 AM (18 years, 13 days ago)

It has been my experience no Book has been able to teach me How to Meditate. Yet I have stumbled upon a way to achieve a few moments of clarity , and then you can get in some Quality Meditation Time. Which in the end, is all you really need.

I find that after a really 'good' session of autoerotic stimulation, my mind clears, and I am able to lay back and think. I mean  really think. The endless mind chatter ceases and I can slip into a deep introspective, even trance like state. It a sort of 'quiet' I can only achieve after I have expended that amount of emotional energy. The drained/euphoric feeling is sedating, coupled with that 'Just woke up' feeling, its a winning combination.  :laugh:

I have read a similar 'technique' in an book of ceremonial magick and it was referred to as the "8th Degree." It is used to prepare the Magician for 'Magickal Purposes' by clearing the mind, and releasing excess energy that may harm the incantation. So maybe it has some merit.

I practice this in the morning, and It allows me to collect my thoughts and be refreshed for the New Day.

/awaits the inapproprate comments from the Peanut Gallery. :smirk: - OoD   


Edited by OracleOfDelphi (10/15/02 05:47 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #962334 - 10/15/02 06:54 AM (18 years, 13 days ago)

There are several major forms of meditation scattered in different religious traditions, from watching every thought that arises non-judgementally (Vajrayana's Vipassana) to watching one's breathing and 'hara' (Japanese Zen), to becoming passively aware of all inner and outer phenomenon (Zen, and Taoist forms) to having one's Mind descend into the Heart (Orthodox Christian Hesychast) to envisioning elaborate mandalas and seed syllables (Vajrayana again) to envisioning the sacred Names of God in blazing flames (Jewish Kabbalistic) - you get the point. One must discover something about one's personality type (primarily introverted or extroverted) and work with this proclivity. A more exraverted, expansive form will be easier to begin with if one is an extrovert, because meditation in general is an introverted practice.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineLOPHO.MP
looker

Registered: 09/28/02
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Anonymous]
    #962398 - 10/15/02 07:33 AM (18 years, 13 days ago)


I have heard of lots of kinds of meditation, BUT, I have never heard of this style......




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---Still Searching---


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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 204
Re: Meditation question [Re: Anonymous]
    #962998 - 10/15/02 01:49 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)



All the different buddhist schools seem to be going towards the same goal. That's what you'll read when you read a book on mahamudra practice (called a million different things).

"There are several major forms of meditation scattered in different religious traditions, from watching every thought that arises non-judgementally (Vajrayana's Vipassana) to watching one's breathing and 'hara' (Japanese Zen), to becoming passively aware of all inner and outer phenomenon "

To achieve the 'goal' you will need to do what vajrayana says and what the japense zen tell you. If you talk to any tibtan lama they will agree that you must follow the breath in order to meditate properly.

and I would like to state that the meditation talked about in tibetan buddhism, the buddha's enlightenment, zen, etc. is a POWERFUL AS HELL experience, every bit as powerful as dmt. It's not sitting quiet and feeling oh so content. It's a real 'religious' experience of the ego dissolving, if done properly. It's rediculously hard. I have been able to achieve this 4 times, plus twice in lucid dreams. I am sure gurus who work on it all day can actually do it daily.

There are other states you can achieve, the tibetans call them bardos (or 'gaps'). Going into a dream lucid is a bardo. That's when you let yourself fall asleep, but maintain an observer's viewpoint to watch yourself go to sleep. You'll see hypnogogic imagery, then the entire world will vibrate, then the bardo happens (can't describe it, its like a nothing or emptiness) then you appear in the dream, fully lucid. It's an amazing experience.

If you really want to go for meditation for enlightenment purposes, I suggest trying to do a WILD (wake induced lucid dream) which is only possible if you know you will go directly into REM (the dreaming) sleep. this means naps, or waking up about 5 hours into sleep. I reccomend reading books on lucid dreaming first. it's easier to get success and it's just as amazing. Once you get a WILD down a couple times, and you have several lucid dreams a month, then you should go for meditation. That, of course, is just the formula that worked for me personally. Do whatever works for you.

I have heard people say there are other types of meditation, and while that may be true, as far as a i know (please prove me wrong, I'd love more possiblities!) all the different schools focus on the same goal of ego loss, but they have a different way of interpreting the experience. They will use different names and describe the experience differently, but I do think they are essentially all referring to the ego loss state.

Other forms, I think, don't have shatering experiences.


Edited by Birdseye (10/15/02 04:09 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Meditation question [Re: Anonymous]
    #963109 - 10/15/02 02:23 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

I think oracle's comments are insightful. Meditation the standard way - ie sit down and empty the mind - doesn't work as far as any powerful spiritual experiences go. Which is why every serious so-called master reaches most of their insights while fasting, avoiding all human contact for months on end or sitting in dark caves until they start hallucinating. Christ, Buddha etc all used methods like this rather than standard meditation.

The "sit and think of nothing" school is fine for general relaxation but I agree with Tim Leary - as far as spiritual experiences go it works for maybe 1 in 100,000 people. To reach a transcendent experience takes a bit more.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGrowingVines
Slowly Changinginto a Tree
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #963247 - 10/15/02 03:07 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

I am at the point in meditation where i am learning to controll my thought and try to have a clear mind. I tried counting in my head to stop the wondering thoughts. Is that a good way...i have also tried following my breaths but hard to visualize it. any ideas?


peace out my brothers for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 204
Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #963414 - 10/15/02 04:15 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

"Meditation the standard way - ie sit down and empty the mind - doesn't work as far as any powerful spiritual experiences go. Which is why every serious so-called master reaches most of their insights while fasting, avoiding all human contact for months on end or sitting in dark caves until they start hallucinating. "

This is false. I have personal experience (4 times but I was only able to hold it for about 30 seconds or less each time, gurus go minutes and into full depth of the experience, I just got on the edge), and I know gurus who have personal experience with this as well. The reason it doesn't seem to work is it is VERY hard. It takes tons of practice, focus, and a DMT trip is VERY helpful.

Fasting isn't the answer. If you recall the story of the buddha's enlightenment, it's after he finishes his years of fasting that he goes to the river to drink. Well, he couldn't have been fasting the whole time, and not eating just 4 seeds a day, I'm sure he got more nutritonal content than that sometimes, otherwise he would die, unless you believe the buddha is a superhuman being like many buddhists. I think the story has been mythed-up for sure...
Anyway, when he returns from the river a woman offers him some rice pudding (I think the food may depend on the story) and he accepts it because he realizes that fasting is not the way to enlightenment. Then all his followers leave him because they think he is a sham when they see him eat. It is after that he goes alone under the bodhi tree and reaches enlightenment.

Visualizations are a very abstract thing in meditation, and I think they can be very misleading. Visualizations are intended to help you get the experience to come on, and they are descriptions by gurus of what it looks like when the breakthrough occurs..the world changes in a profound manner, and visualizations are a description of what happens, although words are always extremely poor...so I think visualizations can be very misleading. Don't focus on those, focus on getting rid of attatchments, following the breath, and thiking of nothing. While meditating, you are thinking of nothing and following the breath (but not thinking about the breath, experiencing it). Visualizations really only seem to help for me after having a breakthrough experience. I just visualize the experience I had--and this is not just in vision but in feel, emotion, etc. You don't think about this visualization though, it's more of an abstract *let the experience come on* type deal. Or "be open to it"

One problem people have (and myself included) is while meditating people keep their normal conception of reality. Try as you might, you think of nothing for maybe an entire minute you are focued, and you don't get jack. But you forget that the nothingness you must focus on must be accompanied by getting rid of attatchments. You must get rid of your idea of what reality looks like and is. Because your conception of what it is like to be sit with eyes open or closed is a thought at some level. You have to get rid of your attatchments (preconceptions, thoughts about this world) to achieve enlightenment. You must fully let go.


Edited by Birdseye (10/15/02 04:28 PM)


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OfflineGrowingVines
Slowly Changinginto a Tree
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #963487 - 10/15/02 04:48 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

i have only tried meditaion 3 times...........for minuites, i will try longer but i will go in steps.


peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


--------------------
Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

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Re: Meditation question [Re: GrowingVines]
    #963975 - 10/15/02 08:01 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

really, once you do it more youll get into it, i dont like going a day with out at least one session. i know you can meditate anywhere, but i like to do it with my choice of setting


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #964203 - 10/15/02 09:28 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

nice man, sounds like you're having fun!

does anyone else around here practice standing meditation? chinese (daoist [taoist]) style?

a lot of daoist meditation involves breath control and moving the awareness through different meridians (energy lines) with many different aims: longevity, healing, martial power, spiritual insight....again these techniques all begin with awareness of the breath and usually with awareness of the body's center. probably the main difference between the daoist and buddhist traditions of meditation is the daoist emphasis on strengthening and healing the body (through meditation AND excercise). the healthiest people i've ever met, and the best healers and martial artists, have all been practicing daoist qigong meditation! maybe i'll check up some websites, it's bloody good fun to read about this stuff - kung fu masters and daoist immortals and all that...


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: Meditation question [Re: GrowingVines]
    #964245 - 10/15/02 09:41 PM (18 years, 12 days ago)

I recommend a FREE 10 DAY MEDITATION COURSE, all meals included, at a VIPASSANA meditation centre. 10 days of total silence (talking is forbidden) and detailed daily instruction in the basic (but profound) technique of vipassana - insight (awareness) meditation in the Theravada buddhist tradition.

really if you want to meditate it's great to kickstart things with a silent retreat, you get a very good idea of how the practice will change you, and you are forced to push through your self-created "i can't do this for more than a couple of minutes" mental barriers.

I've seen the light!!! vipassana is the way!!

i try not to talk too much shit about vipassana because it'll turn people off, like i'm a born again buddhist trying to convert you or something. but really, i've tried quite a few different kinds of meditation (and they are ALL benificial, better than not meditating for sure!) but vipassana is the real shit.

check vipassana (i'm not so savvy with this technical "URL" stuff so www.dhamma.org is the site) for information on centres and course times.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #964735 - 10/16/02 12:33 AM (18 years, 12 days ago)

The reason it doesn't seem to work is it is VERY hard.

I wonder what the number of people who have a spiritual experience through meditation is compared to the number who try it? Is it practical for someone in the west working 12 hours a day to spend enough time meditating? If you have the psychedelic experience first and then want to try meditating to reach it then fine, but saying you can do it purely through meditation is a dead end for most people in my opinion.

I have great doubts about taking the word of "guru's". Their living depends on people following their methods, buying their books etc. Like Terence Mckenna said he found almost all the indian gurus to be a confidence trick and that people were wasting their lives sweeping the ashram telling themselves that one day they'll find enlightenment.

a woman offers him some rice pudding

The story I read was that that Buddha was taking some form of soma? But pretty much every Buddhist, christian, Tao, Hindu etc master has undergone some form of mortification like fasting or meditating in a dark cave for 6 months. I think that's still the way most guru's become gurus.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 204
Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #965307 - 10/16/02 05:34 AM (18 years, 12 days ago)

Traveller: I found one of those with a couple hours away. Thanks for the advice, I may give it a whirl.

"I wonder what the number of people who have a spiritual experience through meditation is compared to the number who try it? Is it practical for someone in the west working 12 hours a day to spend enough time meditating? If you have the psychedelic experience first and then want to try meditating to reach it then fine, but saying you can do it purely through meditation is a dead end for most people in my opinion."

Unfortunately I'd have to agree. Enlightenment via meditation takes practice and concentration. What helps a lot is not having a lot on your mind. This means not having a job, a family, responsibilities, etc. The more things you have to think about the harder it is. It's easiest for someone say 20 with no family and no job to do it on a retreat. It's hardest for someone 40 with kids and a job. But I wouldn't count yourself out! Everyone can do it, it's available to us all, just because it requires effort doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a shot!

"I have great doubts about taking the word of "guru's". Their living depends on people following their methods, buying their books etc. Like Terence Mckenna said he found almost all the indian gurus to be a confidence trick and that people were wasting their lives sweeping the ashram telling themselves that one day they'll find enlightenment. "

Oh, I definitely agree. Most gurus are shams. Any guru that accepts money I would be very wary of. Terence mckenna is right, but he probably was looking in Rishikesh (spelling is totally wrong). Rishikesh is where the beatles went and got their inspiration for the Sgt. peppers album and changed their lives. After that the state became highly known and tourism increased, especially for new agers seeking enlightenment--perfect for swindling swamis, which there are PLENTY of. I'd be wary of anyone who accepts the title "H.H" which means his holiness. The dali lama does, I don't know if he knows how to meditate properly, the H.H. distinction obviously isn't make it or break it, but these people are obviously missing the point if they accept "His holyness."
And actually if you read stories of the buddha's life from the tibetans (oldest source of Indian buddhism) the buddha is actually kind of a cocky guy in the stories, strangely enough. Whether that was mythed up or not, I don't know.

I have read some books and it's apparent that many a guru "know the words" but can't actually sing the tune. They'll make glaring errors that shows they have the words, but can't sing it... and it's especially hard for someone without any personal experience to tell!

"The story I read was that that Buddha was taking some form of soma?"

Well, he may or may have not taken soma at some point, we don't know. The tibetan versions are the oldest connected to indian buddhism (Padmasambava brought them over around 800AD). Indian buddhism was squashed by the muslims that destroyed the buddhists cities and most of the religion in india. But every version of the buddha's enlightenment story includes this meal. And this meal is a very important meal because it shows that fasting was not the answer. The buddha thought it would be for many years, he thought if he fasted that he'd get close to death and understand it. But when he went to the river he realized he was wrong and ate the meal. That's when all his followers left him and he went under the bodhi tree alone and achieved enlightenment.

" But pretty much every Buddhist, christian, Tao, Hindu etc master has undergone some form of mortification like fasting or meditating in a dark cave for 6 months. I think that's still the way most guru's become gurus.

There is not mention of fasting in "The Six Yogas of Naropa" a collection of some of the highest forms of yoga in tibetan buddhism. The specifically talk about meditation, techniques of meditation, lucid dreaming, and the combination of the two. But fasting you will not read; it may be in some texts as something to experience, but it is NOT at the core of the buddha's enlightenment.


Edited by Birdseye (10/16/02 05:52 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #965659 - 10/16/02 11:42 AM (18 years, 12 days ago)

Thanks for the info birdseye. I agree, I'd never tell anyone not to do standard meditation but I wouldn't say it was the best route to enlightenment.

I'm not sure about the extreme forms of meditation and Buddhism - there's a lot of it with Buddhist monks, I've seen pictures of shaolin monks literally hangng themselves from a tree by the neck to meditate and others who stand in the horse stance for 15-16 hours, plus vows of silence, solitude. I would consider all of those forms of self-mortification too. Perhaps extreme self-mortification is more common with Indian philosophies of meditation.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/30/00
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #967947 - 10/17/02 02:11 AM (18 years, 11 days ago)

What path then would you suggest?


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #968117 - 10/17/02 04:17 AM (18 years, 11 days ago)

the reason meditation is a dead end for most people is because most people can't be fucked meditating. it requires discipline and constant practice, you can't just sit down for a couple of minutes every few weeks and expect to have some sort of "spiritual experience". most people would rather jerk off or watch TV.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #968569 - 10/17/02 10:33 AM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Not sure if there is a path to follow - certainly i wouldn't recomend following anything be it Buddhism or Tao etc. We're all unique (or at least we SHOULD be) so we should each have our own path, i think it's more to do with uncovering our own true nature.

Some people are born awake, some people can reach it through psychedelics (tho certainly not all - certain members of this board have proved to me that you can take as many mushrooms as you like and still be utterly lacking in insight, honesty, humility or character) Some people can discover themselves through self-explorative arts, some people can reach it through boxing like Ali, and some can even do it through meditation.

Like Lennon said "I can't wake you up, you wake you up"


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Traveller]
    #968573 - 10/17/02 10:36 AM (18 years, 11 days ago)

the reason meditation is a dead end for most people is because most people can't be fucked meditating.

LOL! Yeah you've got a point traveller. But i've got my doubts that even if you do spend your life meditating you'll ever achive a spiritual experience. Some do but I'd make people aware that you may never achieve much through meditating even if you do it your entire life.


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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #968662 - 10/17/02 11:30 AM (18 years, 11 days ago)

I wouldn't agree with that.. I think that everyone and anyone can gain something from meditation. Whether it be increased concentration, insight into oneself, more stable personality, enlightenment.. or simply for stress relief.. meditation is a very powerful tool for self-healing and awareness.


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Re: Meditation question [Re: Shroomism]
    #968872 - 10/17/02 12:50 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Yeah shroomism - that's certainly the case. Meditation for relaxation is worthwhile, it's just the spiritual experience through meditation that i have doubts about.


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InvisibleCosmic_Monkey
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Re: Meditation question [Re: JPAtanat]
    #969564 - 10/17/02 04:08 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

I agree with your post, sounds right to me. I too am certainly no expert though.
I would like to add that some who meditate try to keep that state all day long of watching themselves and everything else. I find this idea intriguing and plan to further investigate it.


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InvisibleBirdseye
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Cosmic_Monkey]
    #970276 - 10/17/02 07:25 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

"Some people are born awake"

Really? Most people that are born don't even know who they are and are still forming the ego.
What type of "awakening" do you refer to?

I definitely agree everyone should blaze their own trail. Read all you can, think all you can, find what it best.


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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #970366 - 10/17/02 08:03 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Perhaps being born with extended awareness, transcending the ego is what he meant


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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #970383 - 10/17/02 08:12 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

I was just listening to Terence Mckenna on an Art Bell interview right before I read this. I agree with what you have to say, lately I have been trying to practice meditation, but I find it hard to get into a regular routine, which I think is necessary for any sort of effects from meditation. Psychedelics were originally used in buddhism and hinduism, just look at their pictures, and texts! Sounds psychedelic to me : )

And encase you havn't check out Mushrooms and Mankind. It has references to world religions and mushrooms, or SOMA.


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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #970394 - 10/17/02 08:21 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

you may never achieve much through meditating even if you do it your entire life.

dude this is bullshit! if like some people your idea of meditation is staring into space for a while, crashed out on the sofa after smoking a joint, then sure...but if you practice any genuine method of meditation regularly (ie every day) for some time you will definately get results!! like if you pick up a flute once a month, play a couple of horrible sounding notes then put it down quickly saying "i can't do this", you will never improve. if you practice, even for just 10 minutes, every day, you will DEFINATELY get better!!! and if you practice for ten minutes every day for ten years then playing the flute will become a very natural, normal and easy part of your life - in fact you will most likely end up playing for more than ten minutes some days, not for the sake of "practice" but out of joy and love of the experience itself. only in the beginning does it require discipline and practice.

if you practice awareness of your own breath for ten minutes every day, your awareness of your own breath will improve. with awareness of your own breath you will come to understand the mind/breath/body/mind relationship, and will inevitably become calmer, more relaxed, more aware of yourself, than you were before you started practicing.


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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #970402 - 10/17/02 08:29 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

what is this "spiritual experience" you keep talking about? meditation is NOT the same thing as eating mushrooms! while it is possible to have similar experiences with the two, the point is completely different.

what could be more spiritual than the pure experience of the breath? breathing in, breathing out, breathing in and out, now, now, now....


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Re: Meditation question [Re: Traveller]
    #970579 - 10/17/02 09:39 PM (18 years, 10 days ago)

how about meditating thru every moment of your existance in space and time and viewing every experience therein as a spiritual experience, as though god is dealing directly with your soul?


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Re: Meditation question [Re: Traveller]
    #971065 - 10/18/02 12:41 AM (18 years, 10 days ago)

what is this "spiritual experience" you keep talking about?

Not sure whether I can "define" a spiritual experience. You'll know one when you have one is the best I can do.

If you're prepared to work on your meditation for the next 60 years in the hope of having a spiritual experience then good luck to you. Life doesn't tend to be that kind tho. A lot of people will spend their entire lives hoping for a spiritual experience from meditation and then get cancer and die before they ever have one. You might get hit by a bus tomorrow. If you can live with delaying your spirituality in the hope that one day it might come then that's fine.

If you just want relaxation from meditation then that's something else. That is just like learning the flute.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #971068 - 10/18/02 12:43 AM (18 years, 10 days ago)

don't even know who they are and are still forming the ego.

That's probably as good a definition of being awake as I've ever heard. The ego doesn't tend to help much - the less you have the better.


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #971874 - 10/18/02 09:46 AM (18 years, 10 days ago)

sure man i love relaxing, and over the past few years i've been learning to relax more and more - see i'm getting better at relaxing through regular practice!! and it feels great! fuck being tense man!!

people practice meditation for different reasons. I practice martial arts. specifically chinese internal martial arts, which means if i want to develope any sort of skill and power i need to spend long hours sitting or preferably standing perfectly still almost every day for several years. the standing meditation i practice gradually strengthens and realigns the joints: from the ankles, knees, hips to the lower back, entire spine, neck, shoulders...even the toes and fingers are stretched, strengthened and straightened out. while standing i practice keeping my attention fixed on my body's centre, gradually improving my sensitivity to posture, balance, and their relationship to the breath while calming my mind which then further relaxes my body, slowing my heart rate, making my breath deeper and improving the blood flow throughout my entire body.

just a few of the more obvious benefits of the very earliest stages of this particular kind of meditation practice. peace.


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Anonymous

Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #972104 - 10/18/02 12:17 PM (18 years, 10 days ago)

your on the right track superpimp... i find it influenced my life in many area?s.

i was asked to go to one of the similar retreats discussed in the thread... i didn?t go because i could not see myself "chair sitting" over 7 days... to sit in a chair all day and just breath was too heavy...the thought blew my mind... i?m nowhere near that disciplined... but i do some form of it everyday...

i got into reading alan watts... i?m reading his "cloud hidden-whereabouts unknown" at this time.... reading this stuff has opened my mind to many things, including meditation. i have a 30 minute tape on meditation of his somewhere in the house.... i can get u off a copy once i find it

you can meditate and still be a superpimp ya know....  :smile:


 


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OfflineMsPacMan
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Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #972113 - 10/18/02 12:22 PM (18 years, 10 days ago)

candles. definitely candles


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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: Meditation question [Re: MsPacMan]
    #972308 - 10/18/02 02:10 PM (18 years, 10 days ago)

Regardless of what tradition or path you decide to follow, there are two main groups or styles of meditation: stabilizing and analytical. The purpose of all meditation is to quiet and tame the mind in order to generate pure wisdom.

Anyone who says they can't learn meditation from a book is misled: you can. Read up on several schools of thought and meditation to find one that really "sits well" with you. Once you find a method that you really like I would suggest finding a meditation or dharma center in your area to study with a teacher. Whenever you begin a new practice, you need the guidance and advice from a skilled teacher to help refine your own process and practice.

I personally have been practicing several Tibetan Buddhist styles of meditation; Tonglen, Maitri and have been progressing into Emptiness training.

An excellent book that covers the basics of all four major schools within Tibetan Buddhism is "How To Meditate: A Pracitcal Guide" by Kathleen MacDonald. Also, any book by Chogyam Trungpa would also give you great examples of Tibetan styles. Also, the Dalai Lama released a new book this year entitled "How to Practice: The Way to a Meaningful Life"...I highly recommend this book for not only showing you basic meditations that will enrich your mind and life, but it's also a great introduction into the Tibetan Buddhist mentality. The Dalai Lama expresses himself in very fluent and beautiful ways...very easy to comprehend as you read.

Most importantly...you need to practice every day. Meditation is exercising your mind. It takes time to start seeing results. Find a practice you like and stick with it. Meditation has changed my life forever...all in greater and greater ways with each passing year. Do not harbor feelings of upset/anger/disappointment if your progress isn't as fast as you'd like it to be...you have to untrain your mind from so many perceptions and reactions you've cultivated your entire life, you can't undo it all in one session on the mat.

Love & Light,

Boppity


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #972329 - 10/18/02 02:20 PM (18 years, 10 days ago)

It's a real 'religious' experience of the ego dissolving, if done properly. It's rediculously hard. I have been able to achieve this 4 times, plus twice in lucid dreams.

That's awesome, man! You are the first person I ever heard of who has achieved samadhi in a lucid dream... how did you accomplish that trick? Did you actually sit down in the dreamscape and meditate? Was it willed or spontaneous? How long did it last? Did you wake up afterwards? If not, was the dream after that still lucid?

I've noticed that a lucid dream is easy to remember when you wake up, but if you don't recall it consciously then, it tends to fade away just as quickly as a non-lucid one. When you had that experience in the dream, did it "fade away" after you woke up? Or was it still as powerful and "real" as it would have been when you were awake?

Also (yeah, question time....), could you elaborate on the relationship between DMT and samadhi? Because, from what I gathered, DMT seems to be a powerful hallucinogenic substance, i.e. not something in particular to increase awareness or dissolve the ego. Alan Watts said that LSD would give him a full-blown zen-style mystical experience, but DMT he considered just "fun". (And what about the tykes, anyway?)


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Re: Meditation question [Re: Nomad]
    #972444 - 10/18/02 03:01 PM (18 years, 10 days ago)

I had a lucid dream last night... I never try for them though... they just happen sometimes.

Every other dream or so, I realize I am dreaming (stuff doesn't make sense like it should) and I can sometimes take the reins. Last night (well, this morning) I did just so. I was able to look up criminal records online... long story and not a very interesting dream.


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Re: Meditation question [Re: Sclorch]
    #973068 - 10/18/02 07:51 PM (18 years, 10 days ago)

"Psychedelics were originally used in buddhism and hinduism, just look at their pictures, and texts! Sounds psychedelic to me : "

I actually know a lama of tibetan buddhism who is writing a book on just that.

"what is this "spiritual experience" you keep talking about? meditation is NOT the same thing as eating mushrooms! while it is possible to have similar experiences with the two, the point is completely different."

Oh, of course they aren't identical. There are for sure variations. But the point is the same. If you think it is different, please explain
1) the point of of psychedelics
2) the point of meditation
3) how they differ and how they are similar

The basic idea of enlightenment is that we draw a non existant line between ourselves and everything else. The ego loss experience shows this.

"If you're prepared to work on your meditation for the next 60 years in the hope of having a spiritual experience then good luck to you"

You don't need to work for 60 years. A person with focus could do it in a year. A person without may never.

"That's probably as good a definition of being awake as I've ever heard. The ego doesn't tend to help much - the less you have the better. "

Usually in a conversation about ego-loss, the word "awake" refers to enlightenment, as the buddha is "the one who awoke."

And your use of ego is also not correct to the context of thread. Ego loss is not the loss of propping up your idea of yourself, it is the loss of the self completely.

"Anyone who says they can't learn meditation from a book is misled: you can. "

I agree. I learned first by reading, next by exploring on my own time with dilligence. Books are sort of a starting point, but YOU must figure it out, essentially. You must take a creative approach to it.

"You are the first person I ever heard of who has achieved samadhi in a lucid dream... how did you accomplish that trick? Did you actually sit down in the dreamscape and meditate? Was it willed or spontaneous? How long did it last? Did you wake up afterwards? If not, was the dream after that still lucid? "

Since I meditate quite frequently, meditation tends to inevitably crop up in my dreams. When you really get into lucid dreaming, you should figure out your dream signs. These are things you frequently do in dreams, and when you do the things in real life you should do a reality check.

Both occasions I began meditating in the dream without knowing I was dreaming. But since I always do a reality check before I meditate, I realized it was a dream. The really hard part is starting the meditation and getting it going in the dream. Since I had already started it was easy to "grab the reins" and keep going. Whenever I meditate in a lucid dream my ego begins dissolving in under 30 seconds. That's the great thing about lucid dreams--my success rate for beginning ego dissolving is highest in them. About the 10 times I have tried to meditate in a lucid dream, 2 were cannon shots. But I must say I wasn't able to hold it. I woke up about 30 seconds into it. It's so startling I really need to learn how to hold it--that has been my problem in both 'real life' and in dreams. You don't need to sit down in a dream. One of the dreams I had my eyes closed, the other I was doing an open eye meditation. It was a lot of fun to watch the dream shatter into pieces ;-)

It was very powerful. I remembered it just like any other lucid dream.

". Alan Watts said that LSD would give him a full-blown zen-style mystical experience, but DMT he considered just "fun".

Well there is a stark difference in the nature of how the two things occur. With DMT you can smoke it and really have no clue what the hell happened. That's what smoking DPT for my first time was like. Mystical, but little understanding.

If you meditate and achieve it (no I haven't achieved the full state via meditation yet) your understanding is so much more full! With DMT it's like someone drives you there, but meditation you must make the journey on your own steam. You learn SO MUCH more through meditation. DMT is a great learning experience and really helps as a starter with meditation, but it can't compare to doing it yourself. So I definitely can see what alan watts said, even though I am not as experienced as him.






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OfflineViBrAnT
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #973214 - 10/18/02 08:55 PM (18 years, 10 days ago)

if you concentrate on your breath long enough your state will become so natural that held long enough will provoke a revelation or possible enlightenment. i speak from experience.


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #973351 - 10/18/02 10:00 PM (18 years, 9 days ago)

Oh, of course they aren't identical. There are for sure variations. But the point is the same. If you think it is different, please explain

ok it was me who said that so i guess now i have to try and explain....

first then, the point - or the most important point in my opinion - of meditation is the training - or re-training - of the mind. the point of meditation is NOT to have some mushroom like "trip", although such states can occur during meditation. meditating in the hope of experiencing such states will only lead to disappointment.

when i say the point of meditation practice is the training of the mind i should say that the point of each meditation session, and of each moment within each session (and ideally continued throughout the day) is to experience NOW, thus sitting and thinking "i'm training my mind, must train my mind" is no better than sitting and thinking "i want a spiritual experience, will it happen soon?". but the point of the PRACTICE is to train the mind to get better at experiencing this NOW, without reliving the past, imagining the future, or whatever.

what is the point of psychedelics?? that's another good question. i don't know the answer. i'd say that the point is similar to that of meditation - for people who meditate. ie if you're not doing both....

I'm reaching here, i don't really know how to answer this question since i can only go on my own experience and what i've seen among people i know, but i'll keep trying for a few minutes and see what comes out.

first, i consider psychedelics to be an excellent learning tool. my first trips were back in high school and were all wonderful, beautiful experiences - as all of my trips since have been. i seem naturally suited to mushrooms and LSD, cactus and DMT and others i haven't tried but i think i'll most likely enjoy them too. there are plenty of people i know who definately should NOT eat mushrooms!!!

so, learning tool. the first trips opened my eyes to a world of magic and limitless, unknown possibilities - the world of my childhood! i'm so glad to be back where anything is possible, refreshing change from cynical teenage years. now though, i look at mushrooms as an EXTENSION of my training. i see this in my friends as well: those who are "training" (in anything, kung fu, meditation, massage, any musical instrument) take the mushroom and continue to "train" - playing their instrument, practicing movements, sitting still, dancing!!, drawing painting - while under the influence, and then take that intense learning experience back into sobriety. everyone here must have had amazing breakthroughs with this.

I have other friends however who do NOT train, under the influence or otherwise, but like to talk about things like "chaos magic" and "eliminating the ego"...these friends continue to take drugs regularly, and continue to talk about the same things while making no actual progress towards the goals they are talking about. among the younger ones this seems to be ok, but in those who are now getting into their late twenties and older the physical signs are becoming more obvious: these people have been damaging their bodies for too long and their no-longer-young bodies are WEAK because of it.

so, if you are a meditator and use psychedelics they will naturally be an extension of your meditation practice, you will find yourself wanting to meditate during trips. same if you are a musician, dancer, artist...the intensity of the psychedelic experience allows you to absorb more information (???) more quickly through your heightened senses. the important thing is how you USE this brief period of heightened awareness to LEARN. eating mushrooms and watching TV is not (in my humble opinion) a step on the path to liberation from suffering. eating mushrooms outdoors will almost certainly be a spiritual experience though...for sure i know some uptight meditators who would be completely blown away by a full on mushroom trip in a forest!

ok i'm losing it. hope some of this makes sense to somebody.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Sclorch]
    #974207 - 10/19/02 06:31 AM (18 years, 9 days ago)

I had a lucid dream last night... I never try for them though... they just happen sometimes. Every other dream or so, I realize I am dreaming (stuff doesn't make sense like it should) and I can sometimes take the reins.

I'm in a dry phase at the moment (which sucks) but I've had times when I had a lucid dream almost every night for something like two weeks... but my dream control was usually very weak. I never managed to start flying, for example. My style is by approaching the "point of no return", trying to stay conscious as long as possible when falling asleep. I'm not much into dream signs because my dream recall is weak, and I guess I'm not critical enough to notice that something is going wrong without doing an explicit reality check.

I was able to look up criminal records online... long story and not a very interesting dream.

Yeah, sounds much fun. :laugh: 


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Nomad]
    #978956 - 10/21/02 05:58 AM (18 years, 7 days ago)

there was an issue of "tricycle" a few years ago (fall '96) focused on buddhism & psychedelics, very much worth picking up a copy....
www.tricycle.com


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Edited by gnrm23 (10/21/02 05:59 AM)


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InvisibleBirdseye
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Re: Meditation question [Re: gnrm23]
    #979986 - 10/21/02 02:48 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

Traveller,

The point of meditation as I understand it is to liberate yourself from the darkness of ignorance. This ignorance is the idea that you are a seperate self from everything else.

It's very hard to say "what the point" is and I believe that is where we both erred in this argument. For me all I can see is the big point, the transcending experience... But I have had your 'learning tool' experiences on psychedelics as well. Thinking, cutting out BS in my life, getting down to what makes sense and is important to me.

The fundamental realization in meditation which is the foundation of buddhism is also available, by a speed route with much less understanding, through psychedelics. That's my only argument. We fell into arguing about "what the point was" and we simply had a difference in definition.

I don't reccomend repeated drug use. I think doing dmt or something like that a couple times is enough. Occasionally if you are having severe block a little 'refresher' trip once a year might be a nice guide. But besides that, I wouldn't reccomend it.


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #981174 - 10/21/02 10:43 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

birdseye,

different kinds of meditation have different points. the point of vipassana meditation is to observe reality as it is at this moment without trying to change it in any way. the point of yiquan meditation is do develope physical power through relaxation and concentration. temporary experiences of ego loss are definately not the point, and that was my original point! the final goal of the buddhist path is PERMANENT liberation from suffering, illusion, duality. and in my opinion this is very very different from any drug induced "spiritual experience".

i'm not dissing mushrooms. i love mushrooms.

and i'm not trying to argue, just in case my writing tone sounds a bit hard or something, here's a yellow smiley face to show how lighthearted i'm being  :cool:


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InvisibleBirdseye
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Traveller]
    #983699 - 10/22/02 04:59 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

:smile:
I suppose it depends on which angle you attack the problem. The way buddhism liberates is through the realization

"temporary experiences of ego loss are definately not the point, and that was my original point! the final goal of the buddhist path is PERMANENT liberation from suffering, illusion, duality. and in my opinion this is very very different from any drug induced "spiritual experience"."

Ah yes but it is the ego loss experience which brings about the permanent liberation. That's my point. I suppose your definition of the final goal is in fact more precise, I was focusing on the experience that causes the final goal.

As far as different schools go, they are generally all attempting to liberate you through the same experience. They just have different ways of interpreting how to get there and what it is or how to describe it.


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #985425 - 10/23/02 01:13 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

right-o!


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Traveller]
    #985945 - 10/23/02 08:41 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

Permanent dissolution of the ego - perhaps that only happens when we pop our clogs? I like the theory that the point of meditation and the psychdelic experience is to gain experience of this egoless state you will encounter when you die. So you are prepared for the experience and do not panic. What the exact benefits of not panicking would be I dont know but i could speculate endlessly!


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #15560075 - 12/23/11 04:10 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

You do realize you're replying to a 9 year old thread?


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Rahz]
    #15560101 - 12/23/11 04:32 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Vibrant wrote:
Quote:

if you concentrate on your breath long enough your state will become so natural that held long enough will provoke a revelation or possible enlightenment. i speak from experience.




Sadly, he committed suicide many years ago. I guess all that sitting and doing nothing really balanced him out.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (12/23/11 04:42 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #15560239 - 12/23/11 06:23 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

alvinsmith said:
Try to Relax. It is important that you switch off from all thoughts when you are meditating. As you sit down and start meditating, remind yourself that you will not think about anything for the next few minutes. Relax your muscles slowly. Imagine your body tension slowly draining away. Have the Correct Posture. This is vital in meditation. The best posture for meditation is to sit cross-legged with a straight back. You can lie down but will likely to make you feel sleepy while meditating. Calm Your Mind. This is the most difficult part of learning how to meditate properly. The mind is used to continually receive and process information. When your mind is completely quiet, you’ll begin to look into your soul and discover your true self. This is a form of expanding your consciousness.





Bullshit Alert!:haha:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 27,635
Re: Meditation question [Re: Icelander]
    #15560580 - 12/23/11 09:14 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

good call, ice

how does superpimp feel about all this help?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Meditation question [Re: redgreenvines]
    #15560720 - 12/23/11 10:00 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

My life is a mediation on thinking. :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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