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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 204
Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #965307 - 10/16/02 05:34 AM (18 years, 18 days ago)

Traveller: I found one of those with a couple hours away. Thanks for the advice, I may give it a whirl.

"I wonder what the number of people who have a spiritual experience through meditation is compared to the number who try it? Is it practical for someone in the west working 12 hours a day to spend enough time meditating? If you have the psychedelic experience first and then want to try meditating to reach it then fine, but saying you can do it purely through meditation is a dead end for most people in my opinion."

Unfortunately I'd have to agree. Enlightenment via meditation takes practice and concentration. What helps a lot is not having a lot on your mind. This means not having a job, a family, responsibilities, etc. The more things you have to think about the harder it is. It's easiest for someone say 20 with no family and no job to do it on a retreat. It's hardest for someone 40 with kids and a job. But I wouldn't count yourself out! Everyone can do it, it's available to us all, just because it requires effort doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a shot!

"I have great doubts about taking the word of "guru's". Their living depends on people following their methods, buying their books etc. Like Terence Mckenna said he found almost all the indian gurus to be a confidence trick and that people were wasting their lives sweeping the ashram telling themselves that one day they'll find enlightenment. "

Oh, I definitely agree. Most gurus are shams. Any guru that accepts money I would be very wary of. Terence mckenna is right, but he probably was looking in Rishikesh (spelling is totally wrong). Rishikesh is where the beatles went and got their inspiration for the Sgt. peppers album and changed their lives. After that the state became highly known and tourism increased, especially for new agers seeking enlightenment--perfect for swindling swamis, which there are PLENTY of. I'd be wary of anyone who accepts the title "H.H" which means his holiness. The dali lama does, I don't know if he knows how to meditate properly, the H.H. distinction obviously isn't make it or break it, but these people are obviously missing the point if they accept "His holyness."
And actually if you read stories of the buddha's life from the tibetans (oldest source of Indian buddhism) the buddha is actually kind of a cocky guy in the stories, strangely enough. Whether that was mythed up or not, I don't know.

I have read some books and it's apparent that many a guru "know the words" but can't actually sing the tune. They'll make glaring errors that shows they have the words, but can't sing it... and it's especially hard for someone without any personal experience to tell!

"The story I read was that that Buddha was taking some form of soma?"

Well, he may or may have not taken soma at some point, we don't know. The tibetan versions are the oldest connected to indian buddhism (Padmasambava brought them over around 800AD). Indian buddhism was squashed by the muslims that destroyed the buddhists cities and most of the religion in india. But every version of the buddha's enlightenment story includes this meal. And this meal is a very important meal because it shows that fasting was not the answer. The buddha thought it would be for many years, he thought if he fasted that he'd get close to death and understand it. But when he went to the river he realized he was wrong and ate the meal. That's when all his followers left him and he went under the bodhi tree alone and achieved enlightenment.

" But pretty much every Buddhist, christian, Tao, Hindu etc master has undergone some form of mortification like fasting or meditating in a dark cave for 6 months. I think that's still the way most guru's become gurus.

There is not mention of fasting in "The Six Yogas of Naropa" a collection of some of the highest forms of yoga in tibetan buddhism. The specifically talk about meditation, techniques of meditation, lucid dreaming, and the combination of the two. But fasting you will not read; it may be in some texts as something to experience, but it is NOT at the core of the buddha's enlightenment.


Edited by Birdseye (10/16/02 05:52 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #965659 - 10/16/02 11:42 AM (18 years, 17 days ago)

Thanks for the info birdseye. I agree, I'd never tell anyone not to do standard meditation but I wouldn't say it was the best route to enlightenment.

I'm not sure about the extreme forms of meditation and Buddhism - there's a lot of it with Buddhist monks, I've seen pictures of shaolin monks literally hangng themselves from a tree by the neck to meditate and others who stand in the horse stance for 15-16 hours, plus vows of silence, solitude. I would consider all of those forms of self-mortification too. Perhaps extreme self-mortification is more common with Indian philosophies of meditation.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 204
Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #967947 - 10/17/02 02:11 AM (18 years, 17 days ago)

What path then would you suggest?


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OfflineTraveller
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Registered: 04/13/01
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #968117 - 10/17/02 04:17 AM (18 years, 17 days ago)

the reason meditation is a dead end for most people is because most people can't be fucked meditating. it requires discipline and constant practice, you can't just sit down for a couple of minutes every few weeks and expect to have some sort of "spiritual experience". most people would rather jerk off or watch TV.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #968569 - 10/17/02 10:33 AM (18 years, 16 days ago)

Not sure if there is a path to follow - certainly i wouldn't recomend following anything be it Buddhism or Tao etc. We're all unique (or at least we SHOULD be) so we should each have our own path, i think it's more to do with uncovering our own true nature.

Some people are born awake, some people can reach it through psychedelics (tho certainly not all - certain members of this board have proved to me that you can take as many mushrooms as you like and still be utterly lacking in insight, honesty, humility or character) Some people can discover themselves through self-explorative arts, some people can reach it through boxing like Ali, and some can even do it through meditation.

Like Lennon said "I can't wake you up, you wake you up"


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Traveller]
    #968573 - 10/17/02 10:36 AM (18 years, 16 days ago)

the reason meditation is a dead end for most people is because most people can't be fucked meditating.

LOL! Yeah you've got a point traveller. But i've got my doubts that even if you do spend your life meditating you'll ever achive a spiritual experience. Some do but I'd make people aware that you may never achieve much through meditating even if you do it your entire life.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #968662 - 10/17/02 11:30 AM (18 years, 16 days ago)

I wouldn't agree with that.. I think that everyone and anyone can gain something from meditation. Whether it be increased concentration, insight into oneself, more stable personality, enlightenment.. or simply for stress relief.. meditation is a very powerful tool for self-healing and awareness.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Shroomism]
    #968872 - 10/17/02 12:50 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)

Yeah shroomism - that's certainly the case. Meditation for relaxation is worthwhile, it's just the spiritual experience through meditation that i have doubts about.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleCosmic_Monkey
PongidaeKosmikos

Registered: 08/06/02
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Re: Meditation question [Re: JPAtanat]
    #969564 - 10/17/02 04:08 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)

I agree with your post, sounds right to me. I too am certainly no expert though.
I would like to add that some who meditate try to keep that state all day long of watching themselves and everything else. I find this idea intriguing and plan to further investigate it.


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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 204
Re: Meditation question [Re: Cosmic_Monkey]
    #970276 - 10/17/02 07:25 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)

"Some people are born awake"

Really? Most people that are born don't even know who they are and are still forming the ego.
What type of "awakening" do you refer to?

I definitely agree everyone should blaze their own trail. Read all you can, think all you can, find what it best.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #970366 - 10/17/02 08:03 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)

Perhaps being born with extended awareness, transcending the ego is what he meant


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Registered: 04/19/02
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #970383 - 10/17/02 08:12 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)

I was just listening to Terence Mckenna on an Art Bell interview right before I read this. I agree with what you have to say, lately I have been trying to practice meditation, but I find it hard to get into a regular routine, which I think is necessary for any sort of effects from meditation. Psychedelics were originally used in buddhism and hinduism, just look at their pictures, and texts! Sounds psychedelic to me : )

And encase you havn't check out Mushrooms and Mankind. It has references to world religions and mushrooms, or SOMA.


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OfflineTraveller
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Registered: 04/13/01
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Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #970394 - 10/17/02 08:21 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)

you may never achieve much through meditating even if you do it your entire life.

dude this is bullshit! if like some people your idea of meditation is staring into space for a while, crashed out on the sofa after smoking a joint, then sure...but if you practice any genuine method of meditation regularly (ie every day) for some time you will definately get results!! like if you pick up a flute once a month, play a couple of horrible sounding notes then put it down quickly saying "i can't do this", you will never improve. if you practice, even for just 10 minutes, every day, you will DEFINATELY get better!!! and if you practice for ten minutes every day for ten years then playing the flute will become a very natural, normal and easy part of your life - in fact you will most likely end up playing for more than ten minutes some days, not for the sake of "practice" but out of joy and love of the experience itself. only in the beginning does it require discipline and practice.

if you practice awareness of your own breath for ten minutes every day, your awareness of your own breath will improve. with awareness of your own breath you will come to understand the mind/breath/body/mind relationship, and will inevitably become calmer, more relaxed, more aware of yourself, than you were before you started practicing.


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #970402 - 10/17/02 08:29 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)

what is this "spiritual experience" you keep talking about? meditation is NOT the same thing as eating mushrooms! while it is possible to have similar experiences with the two, the point is completely different.

what could be more spiritual than the pure experience of the breath? breathing in, breathing out, breathing in and out, now, now, now....


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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 928
Re: Meditation question [Re: Traveller]
    #970579 - 10/17/02 09:39 PM (18 years, 16 days ago)

how about meditating thru every moment of your existance in space and time and viewing every experience therein as a spiritual experience, as though god is dealing directly with your soul?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Meditation question [Re: Traveller]
    #971065 - 10/18/02 12:41 AM (18 years, 16 days ago)

what is this "spiritual experience" you keep talking about?

Not sure whether I can "define" a spiritual experience. You'll know one when you have one is the best I can do.

If you're prepared to work on your meditation for the next 60 years in the hope of having a spiritual experience then good luck to you. Life doesn't tend to be that kind tho. A lot of people will spend their entire lives hoping for a spiritual experience from meditation and then get cancer and die before they ever have one. You might get hit by a bus tomorrow. If you can live with delaying your spirituality in the hope that one day it might come then that's fine.

If you just want relaxation from meditation then that's something else. That is just like learning the flute.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
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Posts: 9,134
Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #971068 - 10/18/02 12:43 AM (18 years, 16 days ago)

don't even know who they are and are still forming the ego.

That's probably as good a definition of being awake as I've ever heard. The ego doesn't tend to help much - the less you have the better.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineTraveller
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Registered: 04/13/01
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Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #971874 - 10/18/02 09:46 AM (18 years, 15 days ago)

sure man i love relaxing, and over the past few years i've been learning to relax more and more - see i'm getting better at relaxing through regular practice!! and it feels great! fuck being tense man!!

people practice meditation for different reasons. I practice martial arts. specifically chinese internal martial arts, which means if i want to develope any sort of skill and power i need to spend long hours sitting or preferably standing perfectly still almost every day for several years. the standing meditation i practice gradually strengthens and realigns the joints: from the ankles, knees, hips to the lower back, entire spine, neck, shoulders...even the toes and fingers are stretched, strengthened and straightened out. while standing i practice keeping my attention fixed on my body's centre, gradually improving my sensitivity to posture, balance, and their relationship to the breath while calming my mind which then further relaxes my body, slowing my heart rate, making my breath deeper and improving the blood flow throughout my entire body.

just a few of the more obvious benefits of the very earliest stages of this particular kind of meditation practice. peace.


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Anonymous

Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #972104 - 10/18/02 12:17 PM (18 years, 15 days ago)

your on the right track superpimp... i find it influenced my life in many area?s.

i was asked to go to one of the similar retreats discussed in the thread... i didn?t go because i could not see myself "chair sitting" over 7 days... to sit in a chair all day and just breath was too heavy...the thought blew my mind... i?m nowhere near that disciplined... but i do some form of it everyday...

i got into reading alan watts... i?m reading his "cloud hidden-whereabouts unknown" at this time.... reading this stuff has opened my mind to many things, including meditation. i have a 30 minute tape on meditation of his somewhere in the house.... i can get u off a copy once i find it

you can meditate and still be a superpimp ya know....  :smile:


 


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OfflineMsPacMan
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Registered: 10/05/02
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Loc: Florida, USA
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Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #972113 - 10/18/02 12:22 PM (18 years, 15 days ago)

candles. definitely candles


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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