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OfflineCubensisCutter
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PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE (cakes are colonizing)
    #9551810 - 01/05/09 03:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

just wondering if the pf tek can succeed using only brown rice flower during colonization, and no vermiculite


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Edited by CubensisCutter (01/09/09 11:13 AM)

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Offlinedead
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #9551818 - 01/05/09 03:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

How do you make PF cakes from flowers? :wow:


--------------------
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OfflineABC
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: dead]
    #9551827 - 01/05/09 03:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dead said:
How do you make PF cakes from flowers? :wow:




lol. but, I'd imagine that the moisture content may get thrown off by not using vermiculite. But in theory, it should still work. I'm wondering if sphagnum peat moss can be used instead of vermiculite..

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: ABC]
    #9552083 - 01/05/09 04:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It doesn't work because the vermiculite is a major source of food for the fungi.  Peat, coir, manure, etc, will not outperform vermiculite.  Even when growing wood decomposing species on brf cakes, they benefit from half sawdust and half verm, but do poorly on sawdust and brf alone.
RR


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OfflineVermonster420
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9552120 - 01/05/09 04:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

two other factors are that verm also provides a significant moisture content that the myc would run out of before full colonization without.  It also provides airation to the cake so it can colonize better by weaving in and out of the crevases.  A solid BRF cake would take forever to colonize and run out of moiture and/or contam before any success was realized. 
Verm is cheap, accessable and works great.  Stick to the tek, it took over 25 years to get it right.


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Invisiblearp180
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9552144 - 01/05/09 04:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The chemical formula for vermiculite
(MgFe,Al)3(Al,Si)4O10(OH)2ยท4H2O
I don't see what in this formula the mushrooms could be eating, with the exception of Iron an Magnesium.  With that said, why do they benefit from it so much, unless it is simply the water holding capabilities.

RR you said that verm outperforms, coir, manure, etc. in pf tek.  What about using equal parts verm to manure?  My real question though, is why does it outperform these other ingredients that we view as having more nutes?


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

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Invisiblearp180
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9552243 - 01/05/09 04:51 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

By no means am I arguing that verm is non nutritious for fungi, I just hope that you can help be to understand it, because I don't.


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9552302 - 01/05/09 05:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

why does it outperform these other ingredients that we view as having more nutes?




A few years ago when I started growing on coffee, folks said, "coffee has no nutes", so how can mushrooms grow on it?  A year or two later when I started growing on coir and called it a bulk substrate ingredient, people said, "coir has no nutes, how can you grow on it".  Now, they're saying it about vermiculite.  I really don't care 'what' the mycelium is eating in the verm.  I do know that it consumes the verm, and not just the moisture within.

Quote:

hat about using equal parts verm to manure?




It's what I've been recommending for a few years now.  Use verm at up to half of any bulk substrate.  In fact, you can mix your colonized rye grain or wbs half and half with verm, and it will fruit as well as if you'd used manure, coir, castings, coffee, compost, whatever.
RR


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Invisiblearp180
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9552395 - 01/05/09 05:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

RR,


Last sentence, you said you can mix rye grain or wbs with verm and it will fruit as well as if you'd used manure.... etc

Why would anyone use manure etc. then for cubes, verm is definitely less messy?  Or is this simply an either or, and not a combination?  I like to use a diverse substrate and I know you do too, but if verm works just as well, then why?

Also, have you noticed any relation to particle size and speed of colonization?  The last few tubs I have made I have put the straw and manure in the blender and made that to a paste before fluffing with coir and verm.


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
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Invisiblearp180
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9552402 - 01/05/09 05:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

or is it better to leave the straw in sections, due to the hollow centers


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
My AutoMono (11oz First Flush)
My Monster Mushroom Mono (9.3oz First Flush)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9552865 - 01/05/09 06:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Don't blend straw. Cut it into 1" to 3" sections. There's thousands of passageways inside a stalk of straw.  Check out the microscope photo of a cross section of straw.
RR


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OfflineMentonaut
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9552901 - 01/05/09 06:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:


It's what I've been recommending for a few years now.  Use verm at up to half of any bulk substrate.  In fact, you can mix your colonized rye grain or wbs half and half with verm, and it will fruit as well as if you'd used manure, coir, castings, coffee, compost, whatever.
RR




Should one pasteurize or sterilize the verm? Any idea if this works with cakes?

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9553277 - 01/05/09 07:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
It doesn't work because the vermiculite is a major source of food for the fungi.  Peat, coir, manure, etc, will not outperform vermiculite.  Even when growing wood decomposing species on brf cakes, they benefit from half sawdust and half verm, but do poorly on sawdust and brf alone.
RR




I dont get it, if vermiculite is a major food source and is actually nutritive why is it good for casing? I always heard time and time again that a coir/verm mix wasn't good for casing because coir is nutritive and defeats the purpose of a casing layer.

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: danielx]
    #9553307 - 01/05/09 07:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
I dont get it, if vermiculite is a major food source and is actually nutritive why is it good for casing? I always heard time and time again that a coir/verm mix wasn't good for casing because coir is nutritive and defeats the purpose of a casing layer.




Fungi nutrients are different than plant/mold/human nutrients. Verm is good for fungi, but not so much for other things. The point of a casing layer is not to just provide food. It has lots of water and keeps the mycelium separated from air which helps keep contams out. Coir will contam because other molds etc like it, while verm will not.

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OfflineMentonaut
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Shroominit]
    #9553328 - 01/05/09 07:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroominit said:
Quote:

danielx said:
I dont get it, if vermiculite is a major food source and is actually nutritive why is it good for casing? I always heard time and time again that a coir/verm mix wasn't good for casing because coir is nutritive and defeats the purpose of a casing layer.




Fungi nutrients are different than plant/mold/human nutrients. Verm is good for fungi, but not so much for other things.




Do you have a source for this? I'm not arguing, I just like to know the basis for statements.

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InvisibleShroominit
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Mentonaut]
    #9553360 - 01/05/09 07:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mentonaut said:
Do you have a source for this? I'm not arguing, I just like to know the basis for statements.




Just RR's words and my own experience. If I leave out moist coir and verm, coir gets devoured by trich and verm is pretty much untouched.

If you look at the chemical composition of verm and even coir, they're pretty non-nutritious to humans, but obviously other things thrive on them.

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Shroominit]
    #9553428 - 01/05/09 07:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

According to internet sources/google...

Mushrooms' main source of food is indeed organic matter, but fungi (especially lichen, although it's not a capped shroom) has been noted to break down rocks and other minerals. Something also I found about the mushrooms breakdown minerals so that plants can use them, like a symbiotic relationship.

I'm still a beginner though...

weird mushroom enzymes..

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: ABC]
    #9553453 - 01/05/09 07:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

All good info, yeah mushrooms/mycelium actually 'eat' their food, as in you will notice the quantity of substrate decreasing after each flush. Unlike plants who absorb nutrients from and leave their 'food source' in tact.

Mushrooms/fungi are very unique and definitely not covered enough in regular education (everything except mycology and some botany/o-chem courses)

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Shroominit]
    #9553475 - 01/05/09 07:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroominit said:
Fungi nutrients are different than plant/mold/human nutrients. Verm is good for fungi, but not so much for other things. The point of a casing layer is not to just provide food. It has lots of water and keeps the mycelium separated from air which helps keep contams out. Coir will contam because other molds etc like it, while verm will not.




I dont know, because peat can still contaminate. I've always thought coir wasn't recommended because it would just colonize defeating the purpose of the casing layer.

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: danielx]
    #9553515 - 01/05/09 07:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Uh, doesn't the mycelium always overtake the casing layer? That's where patching comes in, then once its done with that you get hypal knots, pins, then mushies?

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, I don't case.

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9553559 - 01/05/09 07:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

It's what I've been recommending for a few years now.  Use verm at up to half of any bulk substrate.  In fact, you can mix your colonized rye grain or wbs half and half with verm, and it will fruit as well as if you'd used manure, coir, castings, coffee, compost, whatever.
RR




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Invisiblearp180
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Shroominit]
    #9554248 - 01/05/09 09:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Once again RR,  Thank you for the answer along with an explanation.


Seriously though, tell me you didn't have that cross section of straw on hand. like I mentioned before, that makes since with the hollow center.  I have noticed though, once I begin sifting my substrate, the mycelium definitely goes through it quicker. That is what lead me to try a slurry, and then to fluff that up with uniform particles such as verm and coir.  I hadn't heard of anyone doing that before with the straw, but I see why.


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
My AutoMono (11oz First Flush)
My Monster Mushroom Mono (9.3oz First Flush)


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Offlinebakamono
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9554600 - 01/05/09 10:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Could anyone tell me what I can replace verm with for the roll? I am out of dry verm, and am just doing pf-tek.

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OfflineStimpy913
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9554612 - 01/05/09 10:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

why does it outperform these other ingredients that we view as having more nutes?




A few years ago when I started growing on coffee, folks said, "coffee has no nutes", so how can mushrooms grow on it?  A year or two later when I started growing on coir and called it a bulk substrate ingredient, people said, "coir has no nutes, how can you grow on it".  Now, they're saying it about vermiculite.  I really don't care 'what' the mycelium is eating in the verm.  I do know that it consumes the verm, and not just the moisture within.

Quote:

hat about using equal parts verm to manure?




It's what I've been recommending for a few years now.  Use verm at up to half of any bulk substrate.  In fact, you can mix your colonized rye grain or wbs half and half with verm, and it will fruit as well as if you'd used manure, coir, castings, coffee, compost, whatever.
RR




Verm is awesome for shroooms seein how it holds a ton of water. Shrooms need that. However i do not think there's any sufficient amount of useable nutrients in verm itself, otherwise why would dry verm be such a great contam stop barrier for cakes? You cant use dry peat and expect it to not get contammed.  Yes shroom myc will colonize verm, but imo its like the shrooms grasp out for a big glass of water, not food.


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Invisiblearp180
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Stimpy913]
    #9556407 - 01/06/09 07:47 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

As RR and anyone else who has ever grown cakes noted, why does a cake shrink so much after being eaten by the mycelium, if in fact the mycelium is not eating the verm as well.  Or is the mycelium only consuming the verm because it has become laden with nutrients leeched from the brf? Isn't that a possibility?


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
My AutoMono (11oz First Flush)
My Monster Mushroom Mono (9.3oz First Flush)


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Shroominit]
    #9556422 - 01/06/09 07:55 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Actually, I'm really glad someone asked this. I have always wondered what a solid brf cake would look like. Just BRF. I never woulda guessed that the mushrooms actually used the verm. I thought it was just filler to make it easier to manage.

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RasJeph]
    #9556431 - 01/06/09 07:59 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think the mycelium could even colonize a solid BRF-only cake.


--------------------
"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
:regularshroom:Nibin's Guide for Noobs
:regularshroom:some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RasJeph]
    #9556441 - 01/06/09 08:02 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Verm is way more than a filler, even if we put the nutrient discussion aside. Verm airates the substrate and fluffs it up making it easy for the mycelium to colonize, while at the same time holding massive amounts of water in storage.


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
My AutoMono (11oz First Flush)
My Monster Mushroom Mono (9.3oz First Flush)


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OfflineMentonaut
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9556445 - 01/06/09 08:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

arp180 said:
Verm is way more than a filler, even if we put the nutrient discussion aside. Verm airates the substrate and fluffs it up making it easy for the mycelium to colonize, while at the same time holding massive amounts of water in storage.




I wonder if it'd be possible to use a BRF and whole brown rice mix instead of verm. Seems the rice would aerate somewhat and hold water, but the expansion of it might be an issue. Any thoughts anyone?

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Mentonaut]
    #9556455 - 01/06/09 08:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BRF and whole brown rice mix




Would probably turn into mush...


--------------------
"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
:regularshroom:Nibin's Guide for Noobs
:regularshroom:some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: dead]
    #9556535 - 01/06/09 08:35 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You would not want to use Whole brown rice and brf for a cake. I have on occasion dusted my grain spawn with brf just for the hell of it, or because i was impatient and didn't want to wait for my grains to drain before loading into jars.  This worked fine and no the grains don't clump, but I don't see any added improvement besides quickness.  The only thing I could see, that could possibly improve a cake is maybe substituting like 25% of the vermiculite for manure and coir to give a diverse diet.  I will post a complete grow log on something similar to this in a week.


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
My AutoMono (11oz First Flush)
My Monster Mushroom Mono (9.3oz First Flush)


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9556672 - 01/06/09 09:16 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I have already done the experiment, with a cake that had half of the vermiculite replaced with coir. It colonized very quickly at first but then stalled a bit, but then picked up the pace and it's now almost at 100%. It has been colonizing for a month... I'll fruit it as a cake just to see how it performs vs. a standard cake.


--------------------
"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
:regularshroom:Nibin's Guide for Noobs
:regularshroom:some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: dead]
    #9557055 - 01/06/09 10:43 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

One thing you guys have to remember is the book hasn't been written on fungi and mushroom growing yet.  Mushroom cultivation is still in its infancy, compared to growing plants for food.  Therefore, we're all pioneers in the field and the results of our experiments are going to write the next chapter in the book.  Nothing is set in stone yet, just as five years ago, I got banned from mycotopia for suggesting that coir is a beneficial food for fungi, when the prevailing wisdom of the day said that coir was non-nutritious and suitable only for a casing layer.  Today, coir is the substrate of choice for city-based mushroom growers.  Ditto for coffee, and now vermiculite.

Remember, we're all still learning this shit, so feel free to experiment at will, and post the results of your trials, successes, and especially your failures.  That's how we all learn.
RR


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9557108 - 01/06/09 10:56 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the inspiring speech mr. R! :grin:


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: dead]
    #9557122 - 01/06/09 11:00 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Dead, I am way ahead of you, I did 12 manure based cakes a month back that are fruiting. I will post results this week.


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9557181 - 01/06/09 11:17 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:
But like I said, I also started my coir cake experiment a month ago. For some reason it stalled a bit but now it's almost done.


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9557185 - 01/06/09 11:17 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
One thing you guys have to remember is the book hasn't been written on fungi and mushroom growing yet.  Mushroom cultivation is still in its infancy, compared to growing plants for food.  Therefore, we're all pioneers in the field and the results of our experiments are going to write the next chapter in the book.  Nothing is set in stone yet, just as five years ago, I got banned from mycotopia for suggesting that coir is a beneficial food for fungi, when the prevailing wisdom of the day said that coir was non-nutritious and suitable only for a casing layer.  Today, coir is the substrate of choice for city-based mushroom growers.  Ditto for coffee, and now vermiculite.

Remember, we're all still learning this shit, so feel free to experiment at will, and post the results of your trials, successes, and especially your failures.  That's how we all learn.
RR




Great point, RR. As with anything, often the conventional wisdom turns out wrong. All the more reason people shouldn't be so doctrinal and defensive about the "right" way to do things. Personally, it seems to me if someone wants to knowingly try something different and share their results, we should applaud them since we all benefit, rather than chastising them and calling them names, as happens all too often.

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Mentonaut]
    #9557269 - 01/06/09 11:38 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Agreed Mentonaut, but if we know something is wrong it is better to voice that opinion and let whomever decide whether or not to heed the advice.

by the way dead, i wasn't trying to beat you to the punch, I am sure coir/manure/everything has been tried with cakes, I just couldn't find much on manure/coir cakes(in fact i got flamed for bringing it up).


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
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"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
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Edited by arp180 (01/06/09 11:41 AM)

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9557908 - 01/06/09 02:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

arp180 said:
Agreed Mentonaut, but if we know something is wrong it is better to voice that opinion and let whomever decide whether or not to heed the advice.

by the way dead, i wasn't trying to beat you to the punch, I am sure coir/manure/everything has been tried with cakes, I just couldn't find much on manure/coir cakes(in fact i got flamed for bringing it up).




Yeah, absolutely nothing wrong with voicing opinions. I just hate when people start making it personal rather than discussing differing points of view. There's no reason for it, and generally, nobody really wants to hear that crap.

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Mentonaut]
    #9558030 - 01/06/09 02:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

in my experience just listen to R.R. and read up on everything, to know whats suits u and the shroomies.  this from a still learning noob.


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9558365 - 01/06/09 03:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

why does it outperform these other ingredients that we view as having more nutes?




A few years ago when I started growing on coffee, folks said, "coffee has no nutes", so how can mushrooms grow on it?  A year or two later when I started growing on coir and called it a bulk substrate ingredient, people said, "coir has no nutes, how can you grow on it".  Now, they're saying it about vermiculite.  I really don't care 'what' the mycelium is eating in the verm.  I do know that it consumes the verm, and not just the moisture within.

Quote:

hat about using equal parts verm to manure?




It's what I've been recommending for a few years now.  Use verm at up to half of any bulk substrate.  In fact, you can mix your colonized rye grain or wbs half and half with verm, and it will fruit as well as if you'd used manure, coir, castings, coffee, compost, whatever.
RR




:thumbup: That is awesome, and great to know as I was thinking of doing a 50%verm 50% wbs bulk.


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: Lennyk]
    #9575958 - 01/09/09 08:36 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

5 days ago 10 jars were inoculated with aussie strain and one of them is  colonizing rapidly, and 3 others are starting to show first signs of colonization. ill keep you guys updated to let you know if colonization continues, stops, jars get contammed, etc.  hopefully some of these jars will fruit


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #9582067 - 01/10/09 10:20 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

now all of the cakes are colonizing nicely


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #9582089 - 01/10/09 10:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Pictures?  I can't imagine a feasible way that a cake of entirely brf would turn into anything but mush once hydrated.

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: libertaire]
    #9582220 - 01/10/09 10:54 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i dont have a camera. what do you mean by once hydrated?    anyways ALL 10 of the cakes with  3/4 cup BRF and 1/4 cup water are colonizing nicely exactly 1 week after inoculation


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #9582234 - 01/10/09 10:57 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Ya know....wet?  You should do what you can to get some pictures of these alleged brf only cakes.  I still can't see any way that would actually work.

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: libertaire]
    #9582405 - 01/10/09 11:36 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

ill try to get some1 to lend me a camera. i assure you its working and dont appreciate your useless dribble calling me a liar on a subject  which your are completely ignorant of.  why the hell else would i make this post in the first place? and to the 'wet' question i used alot of BRF and a little bit of water so its not mushy at all.


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #9582438 - 01/10/09 11:43 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just saying I don't see anyway it could work.  If it's working, that would be very interesting to see, but I have no way of believing it without visual proof.

Can you be more specific about your exact procedure?  How much water did you use, and what was the texture of the brf once you added the water?  Also, did you steam the jars, or pressure cook them?  Did you inject the jars with spores of lc?

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: libertaire]
    #9582452 - 01/10/09 11:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I could imagine pure BRF being compacted, and thus leaving mycelium unable to grow. How did you get beyond this problem?


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: libertaire]
    #9582496 - 01/10/09 11:56 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i used 3/4 cup of BRF and 1/4 cup of water per jar. it was like really thick mud almost but not too wet, it was not as goopy as you would think.  i steamed the jars and used a syringe and now they are incubating and 1 jar is rapidly colonizing but the other 9 are colonizing as well at a normal rate. i really didnt think it was going to work at first either because i didnt even use a top layer of verm to hellp keep contams out. ill get a camera today because i have a feeling alot of people wont believe me which i dont understand becasue why would i post this if it wasnt true? because i want a bunch of people on a forum who i will never meet in real life to think im "cool" for not using vermiculite...yyyyyeeaahhhhh


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: Green_T]
    #9582525 - 01/10/09 12:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

green_titan said:
I could imagine pure BRF being compacted, and thus leaving mycelium unable to grow. How did you get beyond this problem?




i didnt use pure BRF. i bought long grain organic brown rice and put it in a blender. it is not fully powdered rice there are some decent chunks in there still. also, i lossely filled the jars. im not saying this is gonna be a successful grow im just saying that myc growth has began at all inoculation points and 1 jar is like 50% colonized with lots of rhizo.  now, will hte inside of the jars colonize? i dont know.  will the cakes just stall and be worthless? i dont know. this is just an experiment and as when i see more progress i will keep you all updated


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #9582696 - 01/10/09 12:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Plain flour has been used before, but the vermiculite is a major food source for the fungi, as well as a water reservoir, so all you're doing is starving your mycelium.

What sort of filter did you use?  If you said above, I missed it.
RR


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9589109 - 01/11/09 12:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

filter?


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #9590254 - 01/11/09 04:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You need a filter to stop contminant spores getting into your substrate.

If you didnt use dry verm, what did you use? Microporetape??


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: veda_sticks]
    #9590468 - 01/11/09 04:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i put tape over the holes....thats about it.

RR - so what your saying is that my mycellium will grow but eventually it will die?

i do not think this grow will be a success its just an experiment but its looking good so far. all cakes are colonizing with no contams at all


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #9593277 - 01/12/09 04:03 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

RR, if you think that a BRF ONLY substrate will starve the myc, then what about a VERM ONLY substrate? since you say that verm is a major food source for the fungi, and comes complete with excellent water-holding capabilities?

what then, is the point of adding BRF to the PF-TEK?

BRF is nutritious for the fungi i thought? why would the myc starve from BRF? i don't get it. unless you meant that the myc will starve from the lack of water-holding capacity and airiness of the BRF ONLY substrate?

i wonder, has anyone tried a VERM ONLY substrate?

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: holycow]
    #9593280 - 01/12/09 04:05 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

dude... RR never said verm was food for mycelium.


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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: P.Menace]
    #9593307 - 01/12/09 04:39 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Verm may be food, but that doesn't mean it has nutrients. I bet you could eat a bowl of ice cream, but not be so inclined to eat a bowl of flack seed.

Ice cream is delicious, flack seed is good for you. Might have the same situation here, fungi likes to consume verm (thus absorbing moisture), but needs a nutritious part added (BRF) to make it work.

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9593392 - 01/12/09 05:52 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Plain flour has been used before, but the vermiculite is a major food source for the fungi, as well as a water reservoir, so all you're doing is starving your mycelium.

RR




hi P.Menace,

i quoted the above...apparently, unless i misunderstand, RR is saying that verm is food for fungi?

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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE [Re: holycow]
    #9593470 - 01/12/09 06:27 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

holycow said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Plain flour has been used before, but the vermiculite is a major food source for the fungi, as well as a water reservoir, so all you're doing is starving your mycelium.

RR




hi P.Menace,

i quoted the above...apparently, unless i misunderstand, RR is saying that verm is food for fungi?




Yes he is.


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