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OfflineCubensisCutter
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PF tek w/o vermiculite UPDATE (cakes are colonizing)
    #9551810 - 01/05/09 03:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

just wondering if the pf tek can succeed using only brown rice flower during colonization, and no vermiculite


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                                                                  thats right cubes in december bitches

Edited by CubensisCutter (01/09/09 11:13 AM)

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Offlinedead
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #9551818 - 01/05/09 03:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

How do you make PF cakes from flowers? :wow:


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OfflineABC
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: dead]
    #9551827 - 01/05/09 03:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dead said:
How do you make PF cakes from flowers? :wow:




lol. but, I'd imagine that the moisture content may get thrown off by not using vermiculite. But in theory, it should still work. I'm wondering if sphagnum peat moss can be used instead of vermiculite..

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: ABC]
    #9552083 - 01/05/09 04:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It doesn't work because the vermiculite is a major source of food for the fungi.  Peat, coir, manure, etc, will not outperform vermiculite.  Even when growing wood decomposing species on brf cakes, they benefit from half sawdust and half verm, but do poorly on sawdust and brf alone.
RR


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OfflineVermonster420
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9552120 - 01/05/09 04:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

two other factors are that verm also provides a significant moisture content that the myc would run out of before full colonization without.  It also provides airation to the cake so it can colonize better by weaving in and out of the crevases.  A solid BRF cake would take forever to colonize and run out of moiture and/or contam before any success was realized. 
Verm is cheap, accessable and works great.  Stick to the tek, it took over 25 years to get it right.


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Invisiblearp180
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9552144 - 01/05/09 04:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The chemical formula for vermiculite
(MgFe,Al)3(Al,Si)4O10(OH)2ยท4H2O
I don't see what in this formula the mushrooms could be eating, with the exception of Iron an Magnesium.  With that said, why do they benefit from it so much, unless it is simply the water holding capabilities.

RR you said that verm outperforms, coir, manure, etc. in pf tek.  What about using equal parts verm to manure?  My real question though, is why does it outperform these other ingredients that we view as having more nutes?


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

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Invisiblearp180
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9552243 - 01/05/09 04:51 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

By no means am I arguing that verm is non nutritious for fungi, I just hope that you can help be to understand it, because I don't.


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
My AutoMono (11oz First Flush)
My Monster Mushroom Mono (9.3oz First Flush)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9552302 - 01/05/09 05:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

why does it outperform these other ingredients that we view as having more nutes?




A few years ago when I started growing on coffee, folks said, "coffee has no nutes", so how can mushrooms grow on it?  A year or two later when I started growing on coir and called it a bulk substrate ingredient, people said, "coir has no nutes, how can you grow on it".  Now, they're saying it about vermiculite.  I really don't care 'what' the mycelium is eating in the verm.  I do know that it consumes the verm, and not just the moisture within.

Quote:

hat about using equal parts verm to manure?




It's what I've been recommending for a few years now.  Use verm at up to half of any bulk substrate.  In fact, you can mix your colonized rye grain or wbs half and half with verm, and it will fruit as well as if you'd used manure, coir, castings, coffee, compost, whatever.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Invisiblearp180
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9552395 - 01/05/09 05:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

RR,


Last sentence, you said you can mix rye grain or wbs with verm and it will fruit as well as if you'd used manure.... etc

Why would anyone use manure etc. then for cubes, verm is definitely less messy?  Or is this simply an either or, and not a combination?  I like to use a diverse substrate and I know you do too, but if verm works just as well, then why?

Also, have you noticed any relation to particle size and speed of colonization?  The last few tubs I have made I have put the straw and manure in the blender and made that to a paste before fluffing with coir and verm.


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
My AutoMono (11oz First Flush)
My Monster Mushroom Mono (9.3oz First Flush)


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Invisiblearp180
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9552402 - 01/05/09 05:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

or is it better to leave the straw in sections, due to the hollow centers


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
My AutoMono (11oz First Flush)
My Monster Mushroom Mono (9.3oz First Flush)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: arp180]
    #9552865 - 01/05/09 06:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Don't blend straw. Cut it into 1" to 3" sections. There's thousands of passageways inside a stalk of straw.  Check out the microscope photo of a cross section of straw.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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OfflineMentonaut
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9552901 - 01/05/09 06:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:


It's what I've been recommending for a few years now.  Use verm at up to half of any bulk substrate.  In fact, you can mix your colonized rye grain or wbs half and half with verm, and it will fruit as well as if you'd used manure, coir, castings, coffee, compost, whatever.
RR




Should one pasteurize or sterilize the verm? Any idea if this works with cakes?

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9553277 - 01/05/09 07:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
It doesn't work because the vermiculite is a major source of food for the fungi.  Peat, coir, manure, etc, will not outperform vermiculite.  Even when growing wood decomposing species on brf cakes, they benefit from half sawdust and half verm, but do poorly on sawdust and brf alone.
RR




I dont get it, if vermiculite is a major food source and is actually nutritive why is it good for casing? I always heard time and time again that a coir/verm mix wasn't good for casing because coir is nutritive and defeats the purpose of a casing layer.

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InvisibleShroominit
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: danielx]
    #9553307 - 01/05/09 07:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
I dont get it, if vermiculite is a major food source and is actually nutritive why is it good for casing? I always heard time and time again that a coir/verm mix wasn't good for casing because coir is nutritive and defeats the purpose of a casing layer.




Fungi nutrients are different than plant/mold/human nutrients. Verm is good for fungi, but not so much for other things. The point of a casing layer is not to just provide food. It has lots of water and keeps the mycelium separated from air which helps keep contams out. Coir will contam because other molds etc like it, while verm will not.

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OfflineMentonaut
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Shroominit]
    #9553328 - 01/05/09 07:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroominit said:
Quote:

danielx said:
I dont get it, if vermiculite is a major food source and is actually nutritive why is it good for casing? I always heard time and time again that a coir/verm mix wasn't good for casing because coir is nutritive and defeats the purpose of a casing layer.




Fungi nutrients are different than plant/mold/human nutrients. Verm is good for fungi, but not so much for other things.




Do you have a source for this? I'm not arguing, I just like to know the basis for statements.

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InvisibleShroominit
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Mentonaut]
    #9553360 - 01/05/09 07:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mentonaut said:
Do you have a source for this? I'm not arguing, I just like to know the basis for statements.




Just RR's words and my own experience. If I leave out moist coir and verm, coir gets devoured by trich and verm is pretty much untouched.

If you look at the chemical composition of verm and even coir, they're pretty non-nutritious to humans, but obviously other things thrive on them.

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OfflineABC
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Shroominit]
    #9553428 - 01/05/09 07:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

According to internet sources/google...

Mushrooms' main source of food is indeed organic matter, but fungi (especially lichen, although it's not a capped shroom) has been noted to break down rocks and other minerals. Something also I found about the mushrooms breakdown minerals so that plants can use them, like a symbiotic relationship.

I'm still a beginner though...

weird mushroom enzymes..

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InvisibleShroominit
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: ABC]
    #9553453 - 01/05/09 07:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

All good info, yeah mushrooms/mycelium actually 'eat' their food, as in you will notice the quantity of substrate decreasing after each flush. Unlike plants who absorb nutrients from and leave their 'food source' in tact.

Mushrooms/fungi are very unique and definitely not covered enough in regular education (everything except mycology and some botany/o-chem courses)

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: Shroominit]
    #9553475 - 01/05/09 07:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroominit said:
Fungi nutrients are different than plant/mold/human nutrients. Verm is good for fungi, but not so much for other things. The point of a casing layer is not to just provide food. It has lots of water and keeps the mycelium separated from air which helps keep contams out. Coir will contam because other molds etc like it, while verm will not.




I dont know, because peat can still contaminate. I've always thought coir wasn't recommended because it would just colonize defeating the purpose of the casing layer.

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InvisibleShroominit
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Re: PF tek w/o vermiculite [Re: danielx]
    #9553515 - 01/05/09 07:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Uh, doesn't the mycelium always overtake the casing layer? That's where patching comes in, then once its done with that you get hypal knots, pins, then mushies?

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, I don't case.

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