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OfflineMojo_Risin
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Silversoul]
    #9567218 - 01/07/09 08:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well i think you shouldn't group his opinion, that's unfair.

I personally believe that the government should uphold the constitution that each member has sworn to uphold, especially facts such as that the government is not allowed to establish a central bank or a fiat monetary policy to regulate the value of a free market. American principles established for a reason, to fight the very authoritarian tyranny it broke  from but is still fighting today.


--------------------
Fear    attracts  energy  that can expose one to be coerced. Learn to overcome fear and develop enlightenment.


Freedom Equality Justice (3 of 12 Jewels of Life)

Nov.11th Veterans Ron Paul Moneybomb...www.Ronpaul2012.com

Check out campaignforliberty.com

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: anyone420]
    #9567234 - 01/07/09 08:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
I'm not a libertarian, not sure where you got that idea.



Maybe from statements like this:
Quote:

In all cases the private market operates more efficiently than the government, because the government is not incentivized the same way, and does not operate under a number of principle economic laws.



For one thing, the unfettered free market is an illusion.  Markets are a function of property rights, which it is the government's job to define.  Secondly, it's precisely because government exists outside the market that it can correct the market when the profit motive leads to perverse incentives.

Quote:

economics is black and white, especially in the case of the economic turmoil the US is facing.



Child, you have so much to learn.  There are layers to the economy you couldn't even begin to imagine.

Quote:

the answers have long been on the table, but have been obscured by the powers that be.



That I would somewhat agree with, but they aren't the answers you're thinking of.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Mojo_Risin]
    #9567308 - 01/07/09 08:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mojo_Risin said:
Well i think you shouldn't group his opinion, that's unfair.

I personally believe that the government should uphold the constitution that each member has sworn to uphold, especially facts such as that the government is not allowed to establish a central bank or a fiat monetary policy to regulate the value of a free market. American principles established for a reason, to fight the very authoritarian tyranny it broke  from but is still fighting today.



I find most "constitutionalists" have a rather tenuous grasp of the Constitution.  The Constitution is deliberately vague on a number of issues, because it was never meant to be an exhaustive list of everything the government can do.  In fact, one weakness of the Constitution is that it does not adequately define the monetary power of the government.  This is why Hamilton was able to establish a Central Bank in the first place.  Fiat currency is not against the Constitution.


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Offlineanyone420
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Silversoul]
    #9567328 - 01/07/09 08:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Hmm, i would advise against calling someone a child because you disagree with their viewpoint, it makes you lose credibility. 

I believe mechanisms for establishing property rights exist without the government.  Surely suggesting that government is the reason why private business has incentive is false.  The government does not have the tools necessary to adequately direct the economy, because it is just one identity.  The hundreds of thousands of millions of individual transactions based upon individual self interest in turn benefit the whole. 

I love the term you used, perverse incentive.  It captures the reality of the way government operates quite well.  Monopolizing violence yet again to bring in government dogs to keep everyone in line.  Its been done thousands of times, and guess what, it turns out it doesn't work.  It always grows, it always expands beyond its original intent, and it is tyranny no matter how small an amount you propose.


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: anyone420]
    #9567403 - 01/07/09 08:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
I believe mechanisms for establishing property rights exist without the government.



Well, property rights have their origin in social norms, but these are not universal.  A free market in, say, the Iroquois culture prior to European colonization would quite different than a free market in our own society.  The point is that property rights are not something given a priori.  They are distinct to different cultures.  Libertarians often make the mistake of assuming that the Anglo-Saxon conception of property rights is the "natural" one.

Quote:

Surely suggesting that government is the reason why private business has incentive is false.



I said no such thing.

Quote:

The government does not have the tools necessary to adequately direct the economy, because it is just one identity.  The hundreds of thousands of millions of individual transactions based upon individual self interest in turn benefit the whole.



Let's take an analogy:  You have one brain.  How can one entity govern millions of cells in your body?

Quote:

I love the term you used, perverse incentive.  It captures the reality of the way government operates quite well.  Monopolizing violence yet again to bring in government dogs to keep everyone in line.



The government monopolizes violence because that is the way to keep total violence to a minimum.  The incentive of government in a democratic society is to carry out the will of the voters and to secure the interests of the population.

Quote:

Its been done thousands of times, and guess what, it turns out it doesn't work.  It always grows, it always expands beyond its original intent, and it is tyranny no matter how small an amount you propose.



Government doesn't work?  It sure has been around a long time for something that doesn't work.  In fact, outside of hunter-gatherer societies, I don't believe I've seen any alternative that's been shown to work.


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OfflineMojo_Risin
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Silversoul]
    #9567435 - 01/07/09 09:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Mojo_Risin said:
Well i think you shouldn't group his opinion, that's unfair.

I personally believe that the government should uphold the constitution that each member has sworn to uphold, especially facts such as that the government is not allowed to establish a central bank or a fiat monetary policy to regulate the value of a free market. American principles established for a reason, to fight the very authoritarian tyranny it broke  from but is still fighting today.



I find most "constitutionalists" have a rather tenuous grasp of the Constitution.  The Constitution is deliberately vague on a number of issues, because it was never meant to be an exhaustive list of everything the government can do.  In fact, one weakness of the Constitution is that it does not adequately define the monetary power of the government.  This is why Hamilton was able to establish a Central Bank in the first place.  Fiat currency is not against the Constitution.




Because its a constitution of the states, not a central authority over the states: Article 1 Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.


--------------------
Fear    attracts  energy  that can expose one to be coerced. Learn to overcome fear and develop enlightenment.


Freedom Equality Justice (3 of 12 Jewels of Life)

Nov.11th Veterans Ron Paul Moneybomb...www.Ronpaul2012.com

Check out campaignforliberty.com

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Offlineanyone420
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Silversoul]
    #9567445 - 01/07/09 09:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

And governments have routinely crashed and burned over and over, and often take millions and millions of lives with them.  The very concept of government is responsible for more death, destruction, and harm than the things it supposedly protects against.  I know you think monoply violence reduces net violence, but it just isn't so.  I'd like to believe that democracy works, and that government works at all times in the interest of the people but it just isn't so.  Democracy is mobocracy, and the government is just the cult with the most followers. 

The brain can direct cells, but ultimately each cell must operate for its own benefit, and in turn the whole is maintained.  Economy necessitates no central figure however.  Economy begins from the bottom up, and any central planning damages the diversified power that supply and demand allows for.


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Mojo_Risin]
    #9567463 - 01/07/09 09:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mojo_Risin said:
Because its a constitution of the states, not a central authority over the states: Article 1 Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.



What you quoted are limits on the states, not on the federal government.  In fact, Article 1 Section 8 specifies that the federal government shall have the power:
Quote:

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;



And that is exactly how the Reserve banking works.


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OfflineMojo_Risin
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Silversoul]
    #9567508 - 01/07/09 09:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:

What you quoted are limits on the states, not on the federal government.  In fact, Article 1 Section 8 specifies that the federal government shall have the power:
Quote:

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;



And that is exactly how the Reserve banking works.




That was written for a sound monetary system (Gold and Silver) not for the fraudulent Federal Reserve system that backs its tender with nothing. Thanks to government interference, the people now use political money instead of sound.


--------------------
Fear    attracts  energy  that can expose one to be coerced. Learn to overcome fear and develop enlightenment.


Freedom Equality Justice (3 of 12 Jewels of Life)

Nov.11th Veterans Ron Paul Moneybomb...www.Ronpaul2012.com

Check out campaignforliberty.com

Edited by Mojo_Risin (01/07/09 09:12 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: anyone420]
    #9567528 - 01/07/09 09:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
And governments have routinely crashed and burned over and over, and often take millions and millions of lives with them.  The very concept of government is responsible for more death, destruction, and harm than the things it supposedly protects against.



Only insofar as every advanced society has had government.  If you're saying humanity should go back to hunting and gathering in small tribes, it's too late for that.  But ever since we settled down into permanent settlements, we've had government.  To say that all the violence we've had since then(and by the way, there was plenty of violence before that) is to commit a post hoc fallacy.

Quote:

I know you think monoply violence reduces net violence, but it just isn't so.  I'd like to believe that democracy works, and that government works at all times in the interest of the people but it just isn't so.  Democracy is mobocracy, and the government is just the cult with the most followers.



So instead of doing what the majority wants, we should just you want?

Quote:

The brain can direct cells, but ultimately each cell must operate for its own benefit, and in turn the whole is maintained.



Government does not prevent anyone from acting in their own interests.  It is merely there to ensure that society's interests are served as well.

Quote:

Economy necessitates no central figure however.  Economy begins from the bottom up, and any central planning damages the diversified power that supply and demand allows for.



The market has benefited immensely from things that were centrally planned.  The internet was created by central planning.  So was the highway system.  Central planning got us to the moon.  Now I'm not saying that central planning is great and the free market sucks.  That would be just as stupid as what you're saying.  The government and the market can work together to produce optimal results.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Mojo_Risin]
    #9567615 - 01/07/09 09:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mojo_Risin said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:

What you quoted are limits on the states, not on the federal government.  In fact, Article 1 Section 8 specifies that the federal government shall have the power:
Quote:

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;



And that is exactly how the Reserve banking works.




That was written for a sound monetary system (Gold and Silver) not for the fraudulent Federal Reserve system that backs its tender with nothing. Thanks to government interference, the people now use political money instead of sound.



*sigh*  It also says this:
Quote:

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures



Emphasis mine.  Government's job is to REGULATE THE VALUE OF MONEY!  Besides, the money in the United States was never backed with full reserves, because fractional reserve banking has existed for as long as banking has been around.  That means that the government was counting on people not trying to redeem their paper money for gold, because there wasn't enough gold to back it up.  It's no different under our current fiat currency.  The gold standard has always been an illusion.  The value of a dollar has never actually corresponded to the value of gold.


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OfflineMojo_Risin
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Silversoul]
    #9567694 - 01/07/09 09:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Congress is a form of government correct?
The Federal Reserve is a private company correct?
We the people are represented in the congress but not in the federal reserve. Nowhere in the constitution is a authority for a private central bank, the founding fathers who understood it were against it and that was the majority of them.


--------------------
Fear    attracts  energy  that can expose one to be coerced. Learn to overcome fear and develop enlightenment.


Freedom Equality Justice (3 of 12 Jewels of Life)

Nov.11th Veterans Ron Paul Moneybomb...www.Ronpaul2012.com

Check out campaignforliberty.com

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Offlineanyone420
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Mojo_Risin]
    #9567721 - 01/07/09 09:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i have an essays worth of points to make here

but im too baked to elaborate on them right now

i'll come back and post that tomorrow


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Mojo_Risin]
    #9567739 - 01/07/09 09:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mojo_Risin said:
Congress is a form of government correct?
The Federal Reserve is a private company correct?



This is true, and I personally believe the Fed should be nationalized.  However, this has nothing to with fiat vs. gold standard.  The Fed did not replace the gold standard.  It was created to help enforce it.

Quote:

We the people are represented in the congress but not in the federal reserve. Nowhere in the constitution is a authority for a private central bank, the founding fathers who understood it were against it and that was the majority of them.



The Constitution grants Congress the power to borrow money, as I already pointed out.  This would reasonably include borrowing from a private bank.  And a good portion of the founding fathers were in favor of that system.  They were called the Federalists.


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OfflineMojo_Risin
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Silversoul]
    #9567827 - 01/07/09 09:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:

This is true, and I personally believe the Fed should be nationalized.  However, this has nothing to with fiat vs. gold standard.  The Fed did not replace the gold standard.  It was created to help enforce it.




If you truly believe that the purpose of the creation of the Fed was to protect the gold standard, then the Fed is an absolute failure and should not exist.

Quote:


The Constitution grants Congress the power to borrow money, as I already pointed out.  This would reasonably include borrowing from a private bank.  And a good portion of the founding fathers were in favor of that system.  They were called the Federalists.




Our representatives in Congress must get a majority approval from the people and they must stay within the law of the constitution which clearly states are only Gold and Silver is money. Under the Fed there is lack of or a major transfer of power from congressional authority to the Fed, and the law of what constitutes as money is broken.


--------------------
Fear    attracts  energy  that can expose one to be coerced. Learn to overcome fear and develop enlightenment.


Freedom Equality Justice (3 of 12 Jewels of Life)

Nov.11th Veterans Ron Paul Moneybomb...www.Ronpaul2012.com

Check out campaignforliberty.com

Edited by Mojo_Risin (01/07/09 10:00 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ron Paul: U.S. crash possible "Blessing in Disguise" [Re: Mojo_Risin]
    #9567891 - 01/07/09 10:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mojo_Risin said:
If you truly believe that the purpose of the creation of the Fed was to protect the gold standard, then the Fed is an absolute failure and should not exist.



No, what I meant was that it was meant to keep money stable, thus enforcing what the gold standard was supposed to accomplish(Surpise!  It does no such thing).  Price stability is still important, but a gold standard will not accomplish that.  The Fed was meant to put a check on the power of private banks to create money on their own.  What the federal government really needs to do is seize that power for itself and be solely responsible for money creation: something it hadn't done since the American Revolution.

Quote:

Our representatives in Congress must get a majority approval from the people and they must stay within the law of the constitution which clearly states are only Gold and Silver is money.



I already debunked this claim.  The part of the Constitution you cited applies only to the states.

Quote:

Under the Fed there is lack of or a major transfer of power from congressional authority to the Fed and the law of what constitutes as money is broken.



I agree that the government should have greater control over money creation, but as I said, that has nothing to do with gold or silver vs. fiat.  The federal government should nationalize the Fed, end the practice of fractional reserve banking, and spend fiat money directly into circulation through infrastructure projects rather than borrowing it into existence as it currently does.


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