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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9544659 - 01/04/09 04:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know about you... but I don't call it self defense when I walk into anacostia with an M16 while wearing a white power shirt looking for someone to shoot.


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InvisiblePhish_Dude
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Silversoul]
    #9544666 - 01/04/09 04:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Phish_Dude said:
I just hate how war is glorified on tv, while the general population is too stupid and believes everything the gov't says about going to war.



I guess that must be why the majority of Americans now think the Iraq War was a mistake.



YEp except for the few who still back bush. "Well Sadam was, um, raping people!" "He is a bad man we had to do it". Shut the fuck up stupid people that happens every day in africa, and tons of third world countries that lack the oil and resources so we dont give a shit.


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InvisiblePhish_Dude
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9544678 - 01/04/09 04:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
I don't know about you... but I don't call it self defense when I walk into anacostia with an M16 while wearing a white power shirt looking for someone to shoot.



It's called race preservation, because the blacks are going to intermarry our children and we will loose our beloved imbred race.:rolleyes:


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OfflineCalix
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9544679 - 01/04/09 04:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
So, I have to back up my claim citing every war for the past 24,000 years to make the claim that war is bullshit 90% of the time? No. Self-defense and self-preservation is one thing, conquering lands and resources from other people, or having religious feuds is quite another

No matter HOW you try and justify it and slice it, war IS murder, THE VAST MAJORITY of the time. 




Can you back this up.....or just make noise about it. Were you there, did you participate?

im not trying to bust your balls, but when you say something dumb like "war is bullshit 90% of the time" Im gonna wanna know a viable source of information backing up your 90% of the time statistic.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9544682 - 01/04/09 04:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

No matter HOW you try and justify it and slice it, war IS murder, THE VAST MAJORITY of the time.




Not when you consider that roughly 50% of those taking part in war are doing so in self-defense.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9544683 - 01/04/09 04:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Another thing you have to consider is that every war has two(or more) sides.  In some cases, both sides are wrong.  But in many cases one side is right and the other is wrong.  You could say that WWII was "bullshit" insofar as it was bullshit for Hitler to invade Poland, but I think those fighting against him were quite justified.

I'd also like to cite for you another justification for war which I happen to agree with:
Quote:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.




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Offlinejazzillion
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Calix]
    #9544686 - 01/04/09 04:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Calix said:
Quote:

jazzillion said:
Murder is killing someone intentionally and with premeditation, and any war in which death is taking place is usually many murders happening under an umbrella of direction.  In relation to your question, whatever the purpose of the war is unimportant, and you can't support a war with casualties without supporting murder.




just because i go to war doesnt make me a premeditated murderer... you go to war knowing that if someone shoots at you, you will shoot back in self defense (this is your premeditation correct?)

I dont know about you but If someone attacks me ANYWHERE, I will fight back....to the death if necessary. And most people would follow this pattern.

Making us all premeditated murderers correct?




I'm not talking about civilian self-defense.  It's one thing for civilians to be firing back at troops, but I consider it premeditated if you are placed in a war zone with a weapon and a directive.  Whether it's an offensive or defensive political stance, if you are suited for war and are killing others you are committing murder.

Murder for political reasons makes you a hero.  Murder for personal reasons makes you a criminal and threat to society.  War is a sad display of human nature.  Everybody loses.


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"Consciousness is the Universe recognizing itself." Once we perceive that everything is conscious we can then ask, "How does consciousness take all these varied forms?" - The Primacy of Consciousness by Peter Russell

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9544692 - 01/04/09 04:07 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

There is a big difference between a person taking the law into their own hands and murdering people indiscriminately and a nation of millions that is represented by a democratically government and that decides to engage in a military action.  The latter has a lot more legitimacy.

Now, I'm not saying that all wars are justified.  Some are blatant land or resource grabs, some are for strategic reasons, some are for grudges, etc..

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OfflineCalix
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9544702 - 01/04/09 04:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
I don't know about you... but I don't call it self defense when I walk into anacostia with an M16 while wearing a white power shirt looking for someone to shoot.




this has absolutely nothing to do with war........


way to veer off topic and back up your false claims using a completely different circumstance.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Calix]
    #9544775 - 01/04/09 04:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You should know that 84% of statistics are made up on the spot. No, I have never been in War.. I would never willingly put myself into that situation, where I am invading other countries - as I don't support murder and occupation. But I do know many people that have. They recount their tales of legal homicide. Oftentimes, it's not even the "enemy" they are killing.

I would, fight to the death to defend my own freedom, or the lives of my loved ones, were someone to be threatening them. And for self defense, war is fine. But you should know that the ones defending, at least these days, are the ones that lose, because they usually have inferior firepower and forces. Take the guys at Waco for example. Or lolAfghanistan. or lolIraq. or lolPanama. We crushed them like bugs. In vietnam we got our asses handed to us and for good reason. But none of these wars were a result of any kind of "self defense" on our part. It was pure old fashioned, lets take over the world, who cares who dies.

and people go yay america, turn the middle east into a parking lot!
But murder is bad!!!


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Calix]
    #9544785 - 01/04/09 04:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Calix said:
Quote:

Shroomism said:
I don't know about you... but I don't call it self defense when I walk into anacostia with an M16 while wearing a white power shirt looking for someone to shoot.




this has absolutely nothing to do with war........


way to veer off topic and back up your false claims using a completely different circumstance.




It's called an analogy, ever heard of one?

How about this one. If I go into the middle of someone elses country, with a platoon of armed soldiers, tell them how to run their own country, and they shoot at me, you call that self defense? lawl. I call that instigating a fight.

Maybe if they came into your house and shot at you, that would be self defense.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9544788 - 01/04/09 04:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Do you believe in using military force to stop humanitarian crises?

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Redstorm]
    #9544799 - 01/04/09 04:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Like Genocide? Absolutely. Too bad we don't more often.
We like to stick our noses where they don't belong, and then when people need real help we tend to ignore it.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9544831 - 01/04/09 04:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If someone else was going to kill two other people then i would support the murder of that person.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9544843 - 01/04/09 04:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Like Genocide? Absolutely. Too bad we don't more often.



So you think we should be getting into more wars?  How interesting...


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OfflineCalix
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9544856 - 01/04/09 04:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
You should know that 84% of statistics are made up on the spot. No, I have never been in War.. I would never willingly put myself into that situation, where I am invading other countries - as I don't support murder and occupation. But I do know many people that have. They recount their tales of legal homicide. Oftentimes, it's not even the "enemy" they are killing.

I would, fight to the death to defend my own freedom, or the lives of my loved ones, were someone to be threatening them. And for self defense, war is fine. But you should know that the ones defending, at least these days, are the ones that lose, because they usually have inferior firepower and forces. Take the guys at Waco for example. Or lolAfghanistan. or lolIraq. or lolPanama. We crushed them like bugs. In vietnam we got our asses handed to us and for good reason. But none of these wars were a result of any kind of "self defense" on our part. It was pure old fashioned, lets take over the world, who cares who dies.

and people go yay america, turn the middle east into a parking lot!
But murder is bad!!!




You really like to talk about circumstances and situations youv never been in like you have experience huh?

I have friends who are bbadd marines/rangers too (iv heard wild stories as well).  But there still are not enough to base a theory like yours on. Its always the few bad apples that stand out.

I agree with you more than you know, but your still flat out  wrong to say war has no purpose and its wrong 90% of the time. You werent there, you didnt participate...and your in no place to say for fact the political reasons why (if you think we have any real idea what's going on in the highest echelons of government your crazy)


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Calix]
    #9545160 - 01/04/09 05:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
So you think we should be getting into more wars?  How interesting...




No, I think we should mind our own fucking business for the most part, and intervene in the case of extreme crisis, not constantly stick our nose into the affairs of other countries and only intervene in extreme situations when it is beneficial to us in some way.

Quote:

Calix said:
I agree with you more than you know, but your still flat out  wrong to say war has no purpose and its wrong 90% of the time. You werent there, you didnt participate...and your in no place to say for fact the political reasons why (if you think we have any real idea what's going on in the highest echelons of government your crazy)




I am indeed crazy. Yet not devoid of logic. But I don't have to blow someones head off for someone else's cause.. to know that I would not enjoy it. Some things do not need to be experienced in order to be renounced.

I never said there was no place for war, in cases of self defense it is justified.. but especially now in modern times, how often is it defense rather than for political gain or likewise? And the people orchestrating said wars are certainly not going in the front lines, no they send in other warm bodies to do their dirty work.


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OfflineCalix
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9545196 - 01/04/09 05:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Calix said:
I agree with you more than you know, but your still flat out  wrong to say war has no purpose and its wrong 90% of the time. You werent there, you didnt participate...and your in no place to say for fact the political reasons why (if you think we have any real idea what's going on in the highest echelons of government your crazy)




I am indeed crazy. Yet not devoid of logic. But I don't have to blow someones head off for someone else's cause.. to know that I would not enjoy it. Some things do not need to be experienced in order to be renounced.

I never said there was no place for war, in cases of self defense it is justified.. but especially now in modern times, how often is it defense rather than for political gain or likewise? And the people orchestrating said wars are certainly not going in the front lines, no they send in other warm bodies to do their dirty work.




Just to clarify I never said i enjoyed anything even remotely related to war, IMO war is (correction: should be) a product of necessity not pleasure or virtue.


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Offlinewildchild68
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #9545646 - 01/04/09 06:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
There is a big difference between a person taking the law into their own hands and murdering people indiscriminately and a nation of millions that is represented by a democratically government and that decides to engage in a military action.  The latter has a lot more legitimacy.




Legitimacy doesn't really change anything...


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OfflineYour Destination
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Re: Those who support War but are against cold-blood murder [Re: Shroomism]
    #9545880 - 01/04/09 06:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If war is murder, are soldiers murderers?


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