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Offlinescottprotege
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Registered: 12/03/08
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Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework!
    #9488892 - 12/24/08 11:47 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Alright first off let me preface this by saying...I have done my homework...likely more so than most newbies. I spent nearly 2 years on overgrow.com before attempting the fine art of cannabis cultivation and I put in my time here as well.

I got started right with a little bit of investment. I got my 25qt All-American cooker, the impulse sealer, the autoclaveable filter patch bags. I built myself a nice huge incubator which holds perfectly at 85f. I also made up some liquid culture jars in a rather nifty way. So what I am trying to tell you here is ive got a good start and a good head on my shoulders.

Currently I have 4 spawn bags going. 2 each PB and 2 B+. I ordered these bags from an online supplier which I will not mention here because the customer service blew, as did shipping.

I also have 6 LC jars going. 3 with GT and 3 more with Goliath (Pan Cyan) (i know people say pans are much tricker but I just cant help but think I got this covered) :wink:.

So far the spawn bags are kicking ass with nothing funky growing. The jars are also kicking ass. Super fast colonization with both the Golden Teachers and the Goliaths.

My idea for the future is to always use an LC to inoculate pre-steralized, pre-sealed bags of pure substrate, and case with the 50/50+ or a good casing soil(if i can find a recipe). With all of my research in substrates I have still yet to find a good recipe using the items I feel would work very well. I am wanting to use a mixture of

Worm Castings
Wheat Straw
Vermiculite (moisture retention)
Possibly a rye seed pocket in the middle of the bag to help things off to a rockin start

So my question for all of my new friends here is.... Does anyone have any ideas on ratios for the above ingredients, or any comments on why it might not be the best or anything of the sort.

Scottprotege

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OfflinePsychOfMSE
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: scottprotege]
    #9488898 - 12/24/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

85 is waaay too high to be colonizing.

75ish is a better temp.


--------------------
"I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves." - Orson Scott Card

Agar's Grain LC Tek <--- Never fool with honey water and contaminated LCs again!
Large_Dose's Ohmatic Monotub Tek
Monstermitch's LC/WBS/Monotub/Casing Tek

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Offlinescottprotege
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: PsychOfMSE]
    #9488911 - 12/24/08 11:51 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I appreciate your reply but that is in no way an answer to my question.

And what do you suggest...that I fruit at 65f? Seeing as how it seems highly reccomended to have a 10 degree drop from colonize to fruit.


Scottprotege

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OfflinePsychOfMSE
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: scottprotege]
    #9488936 - 12/24/08 11:55 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You don't need a 10 degree drop from colonize to fruit.

3-4 degrees would be fine (from what I've heard and my experiences).

The biggest fruiting triggers are 100% colonization and FAE. 

Sorry about your original question, I really don't have an answer for that, but I had to point out that your incubation temps are too high.


--------------------
"I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves." - Orson Scott Card

Agar's Grain LC Tek <--- Never fool with honey water and contaminated LCs again!
Large_Dose's Ohmatic Monotub Tek
Monstermitch's LC/WBS/Monotub/Casing Tek

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Offlinescottprotege
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: PsychOfMSE]
    #9488954 - 12/24/08 11:59 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Are you absolutely sure about this? It seems nearly EVERYTHING I have read says to incubate at 84-86f.


Scottprotege

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Offlinegrod31
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: PsychOfMSE]
    #9488960 - 12/24/08 12:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

get coir and poo mix both or one of those with 50% verm and add your other things aterwords
also. you have no clue that your lc are good so i wouldnt knock up to many things before you waist much money
edit- never incubate at 85


--------------------
Back the tape up.  I need it again!
Let it roll!  Just as high as the
fucker can go!  And when it comes
to that fantastic note where the
rabbit bites its own head off, I
want you to  THROW THAT FUCKING
RADIO INTO THE TUB WITH ME!
    Not me.  It would blast you through
the wall stone dead in ten
seconds and they'd make me explain
VVVVV Free Myco Thread

Edited by grod31 (12/24/08 12:01 PM)

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OfflinePsychOfMSE
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: scottprotege]
    #9488962 - 12/24/08 12:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yup, I'm pretty darn sure.  Most people don't even use incubators.  Room temperature is fine. 

I only use an incubator because my house stays at around 65f.  My incubator stays at 77f pretty consistently.


--------------------
"I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves." - Orson Scott Card

Agar's Grain LC Tek <--- Never fool with honey water and contaminated LCs again!
Large_Dose's Ohmatic Monotub Tek
Monstermitch's LC/WBS/Monotub/Casing Tek

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OfflineAchilles89
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: PsychOfMSE]
    #9488966 - 12/24/08 12:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

you sure bought a lot of stuff for your first try lol.
Are you sure your talking about casings and not bulk?
...you don't really want anything nutritious in your casing (unless I'm very mistaken).

What are you using as spawn? It sounds like you just want to inoculate bulk bags and directly case them... right?

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Offlinescottprotege
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: grod31]
    #9488971 - 12/24/08 12:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What is a good way to test the LC...would a PF jar be a good candidate?

Scottprotege

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Offlinegrod31
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: scottprotege]
    #9488973 - 12/24/08 12:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

yep or agar


--------------------
Back the tape up.  I need it again!
Let it roll!  Just as high as the
fucker can go!  And when it comes
to that fantastic note where the
rabbit bites its own head off, I
want you to  THROW THAT FUCKING
RADIO INTO THE TUB WITH ME!
    Not me.  It would blast you through
the wall stone dead in ten
seconds and they'd make me explain
VVVVV Free Myco Thread

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Offlinescottprotege
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: Achilles89]
    #9488979 - 12/24/08 12:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Achilles89 said:
you sure bought a lot of stuff for your first try lol.
Are you sure your talking about casings and not bulk?
...you don't really want anything nutritious in your casing (unless I'm very mistaken).

What are you using as spawn? It sounds like you just want to inoculate bulk bags and directly case them... right?




Casings? No I am not talking about casings, I am talking Bulk substrate. Yes, inoculate a bag of bulk substrate, colonize, dump and case, fruit :cool:

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OfflinePsychOfMSE
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: scottprotege]
    #9488986 - 12/24/08 12:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

scottprotege said:
Quote:

Achilles89 said:
you sure bought a lot of stuff for your first try lol.
Are you sure your talking about casings and not bulk?
...you don't really want anything nutritious in your casing (unless I'm very mistaken).

What are you using as spawn? It sounds like you just want to inoculate bulk bags and directly case them... right?




Casings? No I am not talking about casings, I am talking Bulk substrate. Yes, inoculate a bag of bulk substrate, colonize, dump and case, fruit :cool:




Not sure why you'd want to do it that way.  If you wanting bulk grows my suggestion would be to use a grain spawn and colonize your bulk sub inside a monotub.  Case then fruit.


--------------------
"I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves." - Orson Scott Card

Agar's Grain LC Tek <--- Never fool with honey water and contaminated LCs again!
Large_Dose's Ohmatic Monotub Tek
Monstermitch's LC/WBS/Monotub/Casing Tek

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Offlinescottprotege
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: grod31]
    #9488997 - 12/24/08 12:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Rock on, thanks man. I will test my LC on some cakes before injecting a batch of substrate bags.

Scottprotege

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Offlinescottprotege
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: PsychOfMSE]
    #9489022 - 12/24/08 12:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

To cut down on chance of error and contamination, to decrease production time. Liquid cultures are FAST and why waste time (and take a chance on contam) by pouring spawn into my substrate when I can just make up the whole concoction in a nice little sterile bag?


In regards to incubation temps, what is suggested? I can not tell you how many times I have read 84-86 degrees for incubation. Not to mention the fact that according to these books on shrooms mycelium dies at 106f, so where is the danger of 85? So far it has taken me 2 days to go from a jar of water and karo to a jar swarming with this cute little while fluff. Are there any reasons for not incubating at 85f? or is this all just personal prefrence.


Scottprotege

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OfflinePsychOfMSE
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: scottprotege]
    #9489029 - 12/24/08 12:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Incubating at 85 degrees does nothing positive for the myc, but is a GREAT breeding ground for contams.

You're gonna see a higher chance for contams in your spawn with a higher incubation temp.


--------------------
"I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves." - Orson Scott Card

Agar's Grain LC Tek <--- Never fool with honey water and contaminated LCs again!
Large_Dose's Ohmatic Monotub Tek
Monstermitch's LC/WBS/Monotub/Casing Tek

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Offlinegrod31
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: scottprotege]
    #9489033 - 12/24/08 12:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

substrate bags are not for noobs but its great that you are trying
here look through this http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/9488270/an/0/page/0
there is a link on the bottom that explains how i am plaing on doing this


--------------------
Back the tape up.  I need it again!
Let it roll!  Just as high as the
fucker can go!  And when it comes
to that fantastic note where the
rabbit bites its own head off, I
want you to  THROW THAT FUCKING
RADIO INTO THE TUB WITH ME!
    Not me.  It would blast you through
the wall stone dead in ten
seconds and they'd make me explain
VVVVV Free Myco Thread

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InvisibleCDS
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: scottprotege]
    #9489056 - 12/24/08 12:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

scottprotege said:
...EVERYTHING I have read says to incubate at 84-86f.





The mycelium generates its own heat while colonizing. I believe that anything higher than 86F (which is optimum temp for cube growth) the growth radically decreases, so to have your myc at 86, you would want your surrounding area lower, between 78-82F, at least that's what I've been told.

As far as bulk subs, I would recommend 10% dehydrated manure, 40% vermiculite, and 50% straw. Mix the dehydrated poo first with hot water and let it rehydrate before adding it to the rest, and then saturate to field capacity before pasteurizing for 4.5 hours in oven bags at 160F. IDK about the percentages of worm castings.

The three bulk teks I found most helpful when starting out were these:

Fahtsters, Legallyhomeless', and Monstermitchs...

-Hope this helps

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Offlinemadz
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: scottprotege]
    #9489057 - 12/24/08 12:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

scottprotege said:
To cut down on chance of error and contamination, to decrease production time. Liquid cultures are FAST and why waste time (and take a chance on contam) by pouring spawn into my substrate when I can just make up the whole concoction in a nice little sterile bag?


In regards to incubation temps, what is suggested? I can not tell you how many times I have read 84-86 degrees for incubation. Not to mention the fact that according to these books on shrooms mycelium dies at 106f, so where is the danger of 85? So far it has taken me 2 days to go from a jar of water and karo to a jar swarming with this cute little while fluff. Are there any reasons for not incubating at 85f? or is this all just personal prefrence.


Scottprotege




You also have to remember that the colony will provide a little warmth. Your incubator should be 75F but the actual colony is likely a bit higher.

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Offlinewidowmaker487
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: scottprotege]
    #9489068 - 12/24/08 12:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well.....  Incubating at 85 is for spawn and such but incubating bulk can make it susceptible to contam due to the ingredients.  Pretty soon,  you will want to step it up and grow real bulk, like a monotub..  Which is pretty dam easy, and will give you more shrooms than you can imagine.


--------------------
Everything I eat is from the Earth, right.
I am what I eat straight up Earth, right.
Nothing but a walking sack of Earth nice to meet you how do ya do.
Guess what. Ya you're one too.

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Offlinescottprotege
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: widowmaker487]
    #9489137 - 12/24/08 12:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I do plan on doing a monotub with my bags of substrate once they are done. I will only need to dump 2 bags or so into the tub, case, and fruit. I am just attempting to do it all with less steps.

So it seems I should drop my incubator down a few notches I suppose. I see what you guys are saying about it inviting contams...even though theoretically everything should be sterile, and being in a bag seems to protect from contams pretty well.

Scottprotege

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Offlinemadz
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: scottprotege]
    #9489148 - 12/24/08 12:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Im a shroom noob but I have been brewing beer and wine etc for years, and in my experience nothing is ever truly sterile. At least that is the way you should treat it. I dont think the heat so much is harmful because of contams, but from what i have been reading from peoples experiences on this forum. Too high of a temp will cause the mycelium to grow much slower.

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Offlinewidowmaker487
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: madz]
    #9489266 - 12/24/08 01:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Bulk isn't sterilized, its pasteurized.  There is a big difference.  Pasteurization doesn't get rid of everything like sterilizing does,  so....  Contams can pop up,  although ive read people getting away with incubating bulk,  most of the experts here will shun it.


--------------------
Everything I eat is from the Earth, right.
I am what I eat straight up Earth, right.
Nothing but a walking sack of Earth nice to meet you how do ya do.
Guess what. Ya you're one too.

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Offlinekinderfeld11
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: widowmaker487]
    #9491067 - 12/24/08 09:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Instead of jumping to a mono tub you could try doing bulk in trays first...better messing up on a tray than a whole tub and if you have say 3-4 trays if one gets contams it wont be a big mess, only that tray will have to go, long as you catch it quick enough and depending on how it got contamed. Also, it will probably be a faster, safer, easier to incubate and your best bet all around. The only bad thing is the yield, but I would imagine 3-4 6 inch think trays with 3-4 inches of substrate and a nice half inch casing layer would supply a lot of shrooms.

If you got that down going form that to a mono tub seems more realistic. I haven't even grown before but I have been researching like I mad man...my train basically goes from
cakes-> casing just cakes-> spawning to bulk and casing-> monotubs/double tubs->greenhouse->??? I try not to get ahead of myself and trays seem the place to start, as after learning cakes and casing its so easy.

as far as your questions...are you not planning on using poo or just replacing it rather with worm casings?


--------------------
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard.
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come.
(Julius Caesar, Act II, Scene 2).
:mushroom2:Host of new 'Kinderfeld's Kindness' monthly contest.:mushroom2:

Edited by kinderfeld11 (12/24/08 09:23 PM)

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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: kinderfeld11]
    #9491100 - 12/24/08 09:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I always hear that argument against monotubs. How does an FC that is only opened for casing and fruiting any more susceptible to contams than smaller, open trays? I've gotten far more contams from trays that were fanned and misted manually or by automation than from a closed monotub. If you're concerned about putting your eggs in one basket, use multiple smaller monotubs. I would also recommend not to case them. That's been the one area where I've gotten contams if I get them at all.


--------------------

Quick WBS Prep

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Offlinekinderfeld11
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: FooMan]
    #9491128 - 12/24/08 09:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

FooMan said:
I always hear that argument against monotubs. How does an FC that is only opened for casing and fruiting any more susceptible to contams than smaller, open trays?




Well I am not sure that they are 'more succeptable', I think if your getting contams whether it be trays or not a problem needs to be fixed. I just would think in theory that trays would be easier to get rid of said contams, and easier to control/handle especially given this is your first grow. I guess I am more thinking of what would be easier after the fact.

Getting a lot of monotubs running at once seems a little overbearing for a first grow IMO,a nd at least for me.... but hell you def bought/spent the money the equipment so maybe you are ready to go!

I was also a member of overgrow...if you have mastered growing MJ...cubes should be a piece of cake financially/physically AND mentally compared to MJ, at least this is what I find when reading. Other kinds of shrooms however I can not speak for.


--------------------
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard.
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come.
(Julius Caesar, Act II, Scene 2).
:mushroom2:Host of new 'Kinderfeld's Kindness' monthly contest.:mushroom2:

Edited by kinderfeld11 (12/24/08 09:34 PM)

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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: kinderfeld11]
    #9491159 - 12/24/08 09:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Cubes are definitely easy. If your spawn is free of contaminants, the bulk sub is prepared properly and you use enough spawn=> bulk sub you shouldn't have any problems with a monotub.

LOL @ you quoting "more susceptible" like it was a phrase I made up.


--------------------

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Invisiblearp180
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: kinderfeld11]
    #9491160 - 12/24/08 09:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Slow down chief.  A lot of your knowledge is off base. Start slow, learn the process and progress from there.  You should never incubate at 86 degrees. That information is outdated and incorrect. An 86 degree incubation temp will not increase colonization speed, but will greatly increase contamination's since they prefer the warmer temps.  You should colonize your jars at a temperature of around 73-78 degrees.  Also there is no reason to directly inject your bulk substrate, unless you are just experimenting for fun. There are several reasons for this. One being that it really isn't any good reason for it.  A bulk sub without first using grain as spawn is less nutritious.  Second, to get those bags to work you will have to sterilize them instead of pasteurizing them.  This kills beneficial bacteria that helps in a bulk substrate and is even necessary for some species.  It is also much easier to pasteurize a large quantity of substrate then it is to sterilize, unless you have several large pc's.  4 quarts of grain spawn can easily be used to colonize 20 quarts of pasteurized bulk sub.  Also directly inoculating a bulk substrate is not easy.  Even the experts at this site such as agar, have had contamination problems to the point where they determined it wasn't worth it.  It is possible and blue helix does it with good success.  But for a beginner, it isn't a wise choice.


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

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Offlinekinderfeld11
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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: FooMan]
    #9491179 - 12/24/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

FooMan said:
LOL @ you quoting "more susceptible" like it was a phrase I made up.




No offense but your just attaching intentions/meanings to my sentences. I put '' simply because I was quoting your words in your post, nothing more.

Really, not being sterile or as sterile as you can in your procedures are the only things that make contams more susceptible, given your materials and produces are down to the book. For one example one way might be more succeptable due to more processing, and more materials needing to be fully sterlized...I guess I see these procedures more easy to fuck up, than more succeptable to contams...and  fuck ups=contams.


--------------------
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard.
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come.
(Julius Caesar, Act II, Scene 2).
:mushroom2:Host of new 'Kinderfeld's Kindness' monthly contest.:mushroom2:

Edited by kinderfeld11 (12/24/08 09:57 PM)

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Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: kinderfeld11]
    #9491215 - 12/24/08 09:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

kinderfeld11 said:
Quote:

FooMan said:
LOL @ you quoting "more susceptible" like it was a phrase I made up.




No offense but your just attaching intentions/meanings to my sentences. I put '' simply because I was quoting your words in your post, nothing more.

Really, not being sterile or as sterile as you can in your procedures are the only things that make contams more susceptible, given your materials and produces are down to the book.




No offense taken bro. That's the problem with typing words on a forum as opposed to being face to face with someone. Sometimes our intentions don't come across the way we intended.


--------------------

Quick WBS Prep

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Offlinekinderfeld11
kill your master


Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 315
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: FooMan]
    #9491245 - 12/24/08 10:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

FooMan said:
No offense taken bro. That's the problem with typing words on a forum as opposed to being face to face with someone. Sometimes our intentions don't come across the way we intended.





True that...
All good man, all good!


--------------------
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard.
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come.
(Julius Caesar, Act II, Scene 2).
:mushroom2:Host of new 'Kinderfeld's Kindness' monthly contest.:mushroom2:

Edited by kinderfeld11 (12/24/08 10:00 PM)

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Offlinescottprotege
Stranger

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 59
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: kinderfeld11]
    #9496533 - 12/26/08 09:06 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You guys are great with all the help and what nots but I don't need advice on how to best go about all this. I have done my research, I have had very good success with any project I have ever tried...I know my methods will work and I know my flushes will be beautiful. My question originally was just some advice on bulk substrate.

I know from experience that coming at a newbie and criticizing their chosen methods can be very harmful to their future success because you have gotten them second guessing their decisions. I am not saying this has happened to me because I have ignored every bit of advice that is not what I asked for. So just sit back on your asses and wait for my pictures because there is obviously way too much skepticism about my chosen techniques :grin:

Scottprotege

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Offlinedead
grateful
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 2,761
Loc: North pole
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Need help preparing a bulk substrate! I have done my homework! [Re: scottprotege]
    #9496558 - 12/26/08 09:19 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I don't need advice on how to best go about all this.




:rolleyes:


--------------------
"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
:regularshroom:Nibin's Guide for Noobs
:regularshroom:some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)

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