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Offlinemr_kite
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Ants in the garden
    #9476891 - 12/22/08 07:30 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

What does this mean for the question "Does a tree falling in the forest make a sound if no one is there to hear it?"

Taken from http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_9.html (2nd article down)

Quote:

There is a major "dangerous" scientific idea in contemporary physics, with a potential impact comparable to Copernicus or Darwin. It is the idea that what the physics of the 20th century says about the world might in fact be true.

Let me explain. Take quantum mechanics. If taken seriously, it changes our understanding of reality truly dramatically. For instance, if we take quantum mechanics seriously, we cannot think that objects have ever a definite position. They have a positions only when they interact with something else. And even in this case, they are in that position only with respect to that "something else": they are still without position with respect to the rest of the world. This is a change of image of the world far more dramatic that Copernicus. And also a change about our possibility of thinking about ourselves far more far-reaching than Darwin. Still, few people take the quantum revolution really seriously. The danger is exorcized by saying "well, quantum mechanics is only relevant for atoms and very small objects...", or similar other strategies, aimed at not taking the theory seriously. We still haven't digested that the world is quantum mechanical, and the immense conceptual revolution needed to make sense of this basic factual discovery about nature.

Another example: take Einstein's relativity theory. Relativity makes completely clear that asking "what happens right now on Andromeda?" is a complete non-sense. There is no right now elsewhere in the universe. Nevertheless, we keep thinking at the universe as if there was an immense external clock that ticked away the instants, and we have a lot of difficulty in adapting to the idea that "the present state of the universe right now", is a physical non-sense.

In these cases, what we do is to use concepts that we have developed in our very special environment (characterized by low velocities, low energy...) and we think the world as if it was all like that. We are like ants that have grown in a little garden with green grass and small stones, and cannot think reality differently than made of green grass and small stones.

I think that seen from 200 years in the future, the dangerous scientific idea that was around at the beginning of the 20th century, and that everybody was afraid to accept, will simply be that the world is completely different from our simple minded picture of it. As the physics of the 20th century had already shown.

What makes me smile is that even many of todays "audacious scientific speculations" about things like extra-dimensions, multi-universes, and the likely, are not only completely unsupported experimentally, but are even always formulated within world view that, at a close look, has not yet digested quantum mechanics and relativity!




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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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OfflineBernackums
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: mr_kite]
    #9480464 - 12/22/08 09:24 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I don't understand how a theory can be dangerous, it's not like "Oh no we all agreed on this crazy theory and the universe is collapsing!" or something. :smirk:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: Bernackums]
    #9481094 - 12/22/08 11:28 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Nothing like overstating a non-point.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9481474 - 12/23/08 01:05 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Dangerous and compelling ideas are not just pointed daggers. They spend most of their existence continually brushed off outside the palace gates. There's the problem of infiltration, navigation of the palace, slipping by the bodyguards, and finally going through with the deed. The most important detail is often forgotten in a plan, that someone has to carry this through.

Quote:


I have never seen anyone die for the ontological argument. Galileo, who held a scientific truth of great importance, abjured it with the greatest ease as soon as it endangered his life. In a certain sense he did right. That truth was not worth the stake. Whether the earth or sun revolves around the other is a matter of profound indifference.




-Albert Camus

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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: Bernackums]
    #9481844 - 12/23/08 04:15 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bernackums said:
I don't understand how a theory can be dangerous, it's not like "Oh no we all agreed on this crazy theory and the universe is collapsing!" or something. :smirk:




I think that's why the writer put it in italics...not really an important aspect of the article, but hey thats what you picked up on


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: mr_kite]
    #9481881 - 12/23/08 04:44 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

ANTS IN THE KITCHEN - OC 2008
*to a marching beat*

There are
(dun dun)

Some hun-
(dun dun)

gry - Ants in the Kitchen

You nev
(dun dun)

er know
(dun dun)

What they'vvvvvvve
Been a snitchin'

*pause*

Back packin' home!


They come
(dun dun)

In thru
(dun dun)

In thru
(dun dun)

The window!


They come
(dun dun)

Under
(dun dun)

Under
(dun dun)

The door!


They're walking on the ceiling!

They're walking on the floor!

*bass solo*

Milyuns
(dun dun)

Of ti-
(dun dun)

ny Ants in the Kitchen!


Nothing
(dun dun)

to do
(dun dun)

So stop your bitchin!

*finish with mega amplified ant 'growl' & synth sweep)


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OfflineBernackums
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9481989 - 12/23/08 06:37 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

None of it is in italics. :confused: The general tone I picked up is somewhere along the lines of "Do you understand the implications of this!?", and of course the answer is nothing. It's a theory, so it won't change anything.

What does this mean for the question "Does a tree falling in the forest make a sound if no one is there to hear it?"

Nothing, sound waves are still sound waves.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: Bernackums]
    #9483503 - 12/23/08 02:01 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

What is "just" a theory?

I do not need quantum theory to feel undermined, but I have noticed that it offers the same spirit of philosophy that I have gotten used to. What I have noticed, is that a good theory does not have a point.

Evolutionary theory has no point. It only seems this way, because it has successfully undermined many people, and people have become attached to the games of attack and defense. I am no expert by any means, but I am sure there is no point to the theory of evolution.

Music theory also, has not point to it. There is only the blunt conclusion that it comes in octaves and other arbitrary measures. Why does tonality arbitrarily progress only to come back to itself in an octave?  It might be perceived in movements or progressions, but it always comes in a roundabout way. There is no point to the theory.

A good theory is fluid. "It" might undermine some people by washing away their familiar landscape, but this generally takes time. People have their pointedness by which they can be artistically or politically effective, but theories are better without points.

Also, a good theory (by what makes it "good", anyway) is always brushed off at first.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: daytripper23]
    #9483981 - 12/23/08 03:59 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The theory of evolution is immensely more important than quantum theory.

Quote:

Still, few people take the quantum revolution really seriously. The danger is exorcized by saying "well, quantum mechanics is only relevant for atoms and very small objects...", or similar other strategies, aimed at not taking the theory seriously.




Yep, and after reading that, I still think it's not relevant. The article did not explain why it's so important - the author seems to think that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is more significant than natural selection. I cannot disagree more.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineBernackums
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: daytripper23]
    #9484049 - 12/23/08 04:12 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

We observe, and we try to come up with explainations for these things we observe. These ideas are theories. We test them the best we can until we have one that fits, and it will remain until another fits better. Agreeing on a theory will not change anything, because the theory shapes to the mold of reality, not the other way around.


--------------------
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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: zouden]
    #9484196 - 12/23/08 04:33 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The theory of evolution is immensely more important than quantum theory.




...In terms of human history maybe, but I think you missed the point. The article seems to be written in the spirit of historicity rather than its terms. In your terms of importance, don't forget that evolution was once a ridiculous theory about human monkeys.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: Bernackums]
    #9484210 - 12/23/08 04:36 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

We observe, and we try to come up with explainations for these things we observe. These ideas are theories. We test them the best we can until we have one that fits, and it will remain until another fits better. Agreeing on a theory will not change anything, because the theory shapes to the mold of reality, not the other way around.




Right, theories aren't important in themselves.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: daytripper23]
    #9484301 - 12/23/08 04:52 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

>don't forget that evolution was once a ridiculous theory about human monkeys.

...I don't think that it was, actually. Darwin's theory immediately caused a big stir as it filled a huge hole in our knowledge. I think must have been pretty obvious how important it was. But quantum theory has been around for almost a hundred years and it's still nothing more than a collection of ideas about how small particles interact. It's hugely important for physicists, of course, but I doubt it'll ever change our view of the world the way that Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection did.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Ants in the garden [Re: zouden]
    #9484328 - 12/23/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

oh god...

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: DieCommie]
    #9485309 - 12/23/08 07:42 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

A theory is a theory, and not anything more. Human history is what makes evolution important, and in this light, I probably agree. But this is also the same self important bias that oppresses the human spirit. We tend to worship past theories as revolutionary, but at the expense of the real revolutions of the present. The reason I am passionate about this, is I would favor an intellectual revolution over the inevitable war.

I don't actually know anything about quantum, but I didn't think that this was what the original post was actually about. To me, its about the ridiculous little ants that are so easily brushed away at first, only to eventually overwhelm a picnic. But I would not be surprised if quantum is these ants in an early stage, and that a knowledgeable person could make a good case of this. If its not quantum, its going to be something else.

Zouden, I did not think that quantum was prominent as long as evolution has been, (indeed, probably longer if several hundred years).  I'm not sure I believe this, but feel free to convince me otherwise. Somehow I think that evolution has a leg up, and am inclined to think that this is the ordinary historical bias speaking. Quantum isn't crucial to my approach. Like I said, I do not need quantum to feel undermined, or subject to revolution.

What is more significant, the revolution of the past or present? (And how can begin to talk about this without getting under your guys skins?) You can't really talk about a revolution without referring to the theory, and uniting this duality was my (poor) attempt at metaphor in my previous post.

Im sure you guys know that there was once a Christian revolution, and it was only subsequent to this that Christianity became a conservative ideology. Hah! but wait, don't get your panties in a bundle. I have decided that this really isn't necessary for the purposes of my posting in this thread; much in the same way that I am not really trying to substantiate quantum theory in any way.

I am talking about the revolution that is correlated with a theory, and understanding this correlation. 

"

Edited by daytripper23 (12/23/08 08:00 PM)

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InvisibleArden
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: daytripper23]
    #9485372 - 12/23/08 07:53 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It's hugely important for physicists, of course, but I doubt it'll ever change our view of the world the way that Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection did.




I doubt so too, though popularizing the theories thus far can do a pretty good job of emphasizing the subjectivity and relativity of our experiences and interactions with the world. It could do some good for our natural inclinations towards ego inflation.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: daytripper23]
    #9485409 - 12/23/08 07:59 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I guess it all hinges on whether quantum physics will have an impact on people's lives the way evolution has. Though it's difficult to examine the effect of the theory of evolution without getting caught up in the creationism debate - evolution is a household word, but that's mostly because it's a contentious issue. QP doesn't have that contention.

Here's my main disagreement:
Quote:

I think that seen from 200 years in the future, the dangerous scientific idea that was around at the beginning of the 20th century, and that everybody was afraid to accept, will simply be that the world is completely different from our simple minded picture of it. As the physics of the 20th century had already shown.




If you ask me, the physics of the 20th century (the author is talking about Relativity) just shows that the world is not completely different from our picture of it. Newton's theories hold up extremely well in our world; they just don't work in extreme cases, like velocities near the speed of light. I argue that Quantum Physics has an even smaller effect on our picture of the world.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: zouden]
    #9485645 - 12/23/08 08:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

As I got no props for my Hip-Hop Ant Song, I will never rap in another thread! :mad2:


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OfflineBernackums
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9485695 - 12/23/08 08:45 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I apparently skipped it, but after giving it a listen I :lol:. My favorite part was the bass solo.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ants in the garden [Re: Bernackums]
    #9485723 - 12/23/08 08:49 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

:rofl:

Really got to you, eh?


--------------------

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