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 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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 How is debate possible in spirituality? 
#9466480 - 12/20/08 11:17 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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This forum generally serves as an excellent place to debate philosophical concepts and sling some fancy rhetoric around. This generally implies that one's belief or argument currently up for discussion carries the possibility for its own discreditation or affirmation; either through shoddy logic, poor substantiation, or the verifiability or dismissal of the belief's truth through the corroboration of other people's experiences.
Spirituality, however, presents a belief-system as is, with no room for improvement. Faith is usually an important concept here, or at least a concept of subjective truth that cannot be objectively verified, and logical contradictions are less important in the grand scheme of things than the benefits obtained in one's life by practicing the spiritual system. Debate serves no purpose here, and in fact results of successful conversion to another religious paradigm (or even to a nonreligious one) are generally rare and accompanied only after much bloodshed--we only have to see the countless historical and political examples of rational diplomacy and attempts at belief mediation being utterly destroyed by appeals to emotion, tradition, or subjective judgment to agree.
Here in P&S I see a dearth of spirituality posts, and the few that do appear are usually shot down within a few replies by adamant skeptics and raging anti-religious rhetoric. This is not to say that an atheistic paradigm isn't superior to a spiritual one, but rather that this forum's title appears to belie its purpose: a debate-centered message board. Countless times I've seen a post about Christianity, or Islam, or even just belief in a God, get shot down on the grounds of unsubstantiated claims or the trite appeal to the fallacy of burden of proof--permitting no unbiased discussion about the merits of a spiritual practice and how they apply to living one's life.
It seems further strange that such things as the paranormal are relegated to a forum that offers up no chance for intelligent skepticism or refutation of illogical beliefs about objective reality; something that, unlike spirituality, can actually be put up to the test.
Doesn't it make much more sense to consolidate Philosophy and the Paranormal into a logical, well-reasoned, argumentative debate-style forum, and merge Spirituality back in with Mysticism into a non-debate oriented discussion?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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 beneath
One Way Street
Registered: 10/30/07
Posts: 1,239
Loc: The un-united kingdom
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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 Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: deCypher]
#9466512 - 12/20/08 11:24 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I always wondered why the hell Philosophy was in the same forum as Spirituality.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: deCypher]
#9466514 - 12/20/08 11:24 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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*In a creaky old man voice*
This reminds me of the great S&P 'divide the forum' debate back in 2001.
*smacks gums*
Ayep. Dem were da good ole days.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9466521 - 12/20/08 11:25 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Care to enlighten us young 'uns with tales of when you had to type uphill both ways?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: deCypher]
#9466534 - 12/20/08 11:28 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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It even snowed in the summer back then.
Seriously, there were literally hundreds of pages of discussion on this issue. The result: the perfect system we have today. 
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mushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: deCypher]
#9466538 - 12/20/08 11:29 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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It is not a spiritual or philosophical forum. It is a mirror site for the James Randi skeptic forum. Skepticism is but one form of philosophy, here it is the only one. Then this one form of philosophy is used to shoot down all forms of spirituality.
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mushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9466546 - 12/20/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
It even snowed in the summer back then.
Seriously, there were literally hundreds of pages of discussion on this issue. The result: the perfect system we have today.
All non-skeptics must have been shown the door.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: mushroom people]
#9466548 - 12/20/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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The Ayahuasca.com website is brimming over with nothing but tales of magick, entity contact and miraculous healings. Questioning anything can get you banned. It's a nice safe playground.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: mushroom people]
#9466564 - 12/20/08 11:35 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Au contraire, mon ami. All of the moderators then were full-fledged fluffernauts.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9466591 - 12/20/08 11:40 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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OC, wouldn't you say all the believers give you something to live for everytime you log into the Shroomery?
A P&S forum with no idiotic statements to combat would be a boring forum indeed.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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mushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9466624 - 12/20/08 11:45 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't mind questioning, but like I said this is a skeptic forum and I find that quite tiresome. I have heard the skeptics view until I want to puke. All you do is spew the party line, not a lot of original thought. Reminds me of the Islamic sites. Every question you could every have is answered in a 1000 page document and all the subscribers quote it to you verbatim.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: mushroom people]
#9466693 - 12/20/08 11:59 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I don't mind questioning, but like I said this is a skeptic forum
Point 1: Everyone is skeptical of something.
Point 2: Everyone is welcome here - even you. 
Quote:
All you do is spew the party line, not a lot of original thought.
The party line? I never belonged to any organization. Not sure what you are raging about. Be careful; your irrational emotionalism is showing.
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Bernackums
The universe will have its way.
Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: deCypher]
#9466736 - 12/20/08 12:08 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's what spirituality is? Spirituality is psychedelics to me. 
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Let's get the fuck out of here.
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Royal_Shroom
Love Is Key
Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 57
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: mushroom people]
#9466793 - 12/20/08 12:20 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushroom people said:
I have heard the skeptics view until I want to puke. All you do is spew the party line, not a lot of original thought.
 I think I'd have to agree with that one. It doesn't take much just to shoot something down. Anyone can do that. Seems a lot like to disagree just because they can. Some sort of gratification or something 
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Embrace your soul, color, and the light
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mushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9466801 - 12/20/08 12:21 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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rebuttal to point 1: I am referring to the philosophy, borderline religion, known as skepticism.
Rebuttal to point 2: 
I am neither irrational or emotional.
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,334
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: deCypher]
#9466804 - 12/20/08 12:21 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Countless times I've seen a post about Christianity, or Islam, or even just belief in a God, get shot down on the grounds of unsubstantiated claims or the trite appeal to the fallacy of burden of proof--permitting no unbiased discussion about the merits of a spiritual practice and how they apply to living one's life.
Well, if a person truly wants to discuss spirituality, they don't need to tie it into a material belief, which is what "God" usually boils down to. If a person is asking for validation of the unprovable by proxy, ignoring their desire for validation and treating the query or assertion as purely spiritual, only reinforces their unsubstantiated assumptions about reality. OC is one of the most helpful people here.:)
There is potential discussion within those posts that get shot down in flames, but it's on the OP to clarify the difference between the actual query, and any baggage they bring with them. They usually are partial to their baggage, and don't want their hand held gently.
S&M?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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mushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: Royal_Shroom]
#9466807 - 12/20/08 12:22 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Royal_Shroom said:
Quote:
mushroom people said:
I have heard the skeptics view until I want to puke. All you do is spew the party line, not a lot of original thought.
I think I'd have to agree with that one. It doesn't take much just to shoot something down. Anyone can do that. Seems a lot like to disagree just because they can. Some sort of gratification or something
I finally found a friend. 
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: Rahz]
#9466818 - 12/20/08 12:24 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
S&M?
You have to admit it's catchy.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: deCypher]
#9466844 - 12/20/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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And already been done. 
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Royal_Shroom
Love Is Key
Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 57
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: mushroom people]
#9466852 - 12/20/08 12:29 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Embrace your soul, color, and the light
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zannennagara
Found in Space
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: deCypher]
#9471263 - 12/21/08 04:58 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think Rahz has got it.
There is much to debate about spiritual practice, in comparison of techniques and interpretations of text, but if we try to make rational claims about these practices we should not expect an exemption from rational debate and the findings of (hopefully) rational science.
If one of the spiritualists' major qualms with rational refutation is the need for belief in these spiritual findings, surely an explanation of that qualm would be their failure to believe in rationality, even though rationality isn't asking for belief, more asking "Isn't this usually true for everyone?"
If it requires belief, there should be an accompanying rational understanding of why it does, and this should not destroy any spirituality we might have but rather further color it.
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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.
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demiu5
humans, lol
Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium 
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: deCypher]
#9471865 - 12/21/08 09:32 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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oh, it's very possible. interpretations/misinterpretations
usually ends in war
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channel your inner Larry David
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Ratci
Esper<3
Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 1,039
Loc: Coumbia MD
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: How is debate possible in spirituality? [Re: demiu5]
#9476114 - 12/22/08 12:59 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I totally agree with the first post
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People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. --Albert Einstein
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