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Offlinepiracetam
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Re: LSH [Re: 04281969]
    #9474150 - 12/21/08 06:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

no (and peppermint oil is mostly menthol/menthone, not acetaldehyde).

in the theoretical conversion of LSA to LSH, the peppermint oil would serve as a sort of catalyst in this dubious reaction.


--------------------
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck

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Offlinemonkeybus
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Re: LSH [Re: 04281969]
    #9474161 - 12/21/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Its been very hard to get some acid around here lately. So I had tried LSA a few times but I desire stonger visuals. So im turning to LSH to fill the void




One word, son. Psilocybin.

That'll fill your void, and then some.

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Invisible04281969
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Re: LSH [Re: piracetam]
    #9476941 - 12/22/08 07:53 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

piracetam said:
no (and peppermint oil is mostly menthol/menthone, not acetaldehyde).

in the theoretical conversion of LSA to LSH, the peppermint oil would serve as a sort of catalyst in this dubious reaction.





Of course, I'm talking about the essential oil which is high in acetaldehyde (surely high enough), not the flavoring.

Damn "theoretical conversions" or "dubious reactions".  What is being produced?  If the oil is working as a catalyst, what exactly in the oil is it, and for what reaction?  What else in the oil could be doing anything that could make a difference?

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Offlinesmaerd
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Re: LSH [Re: 04281969]
    #9477210 - 12/22/08 09:23 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I've had supposed "LSH". The way I had it was in some really ghetto home-made gelatin tabs(like literally someone took unflavored jello mix and koolaid and made a weird sheet). And yeah I took like a 2 inch by 2 inch square and it was fairly similar to acid however less wiggles and more of just an overall brightness and giggles. However the source wasn't 100% viable as always coulda just been some LSA or something else but it was a fun night and no problem sleeping.

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Offlinepiracetam
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Re: LSH [Re: 04281969]
    #9477228 - 12/22/08 09:26 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

04281969 said:
Quote:

piracetam said:
no (and peppermint oil is mostly menthol/menthone, not acetaldehyde).

in the theoretical conversion of LSA to LSH, the peppermint oil would serve as a sort of catalyst in this dubious reaction.





Of course, I'm talking about the essential oil which is high in acetaldehyde (surely high enough), not the flavoring.

Damn "theoretical conversions" or "dubious reactions".  What is being produced?  If the oil is working as a catalyst, what exactly in the oil is it, and for what reaction?  What else in the oil could be doing anything that could make a difference?




probably nothing active.
it's obvious a lot of people who have no concept of the stereospecificity of these molecules don't understand that the chiral carbon is susceptible to isomerization. the d-isomer configuration would need to be preserved to maintain activity, or one would get low yields of anything active. liquid (or column) chromatography would also need to be implemented to separate the isomers.
 
I merely mentioned peppermint oil as possibly being a catalyst in this theoretical reaction, because sometimes essential oil components (i.e. menthone, carvone, pugelone, etc.) are used as catalysts (mostly in reflux procedures). the (reduced) acetaldehyde is what would supposedly add the hydroxyethyl group, though there is scant (if any) evidence of this

and essential oil of peppermint is the flavoring. it has trace amounts of acetaldehyde, but is predominantly menthol and menthone.


I found this old thread on it at BL, it even has a few old research refs. about separating the isomers, but nothing about synthing it
just seems like a lot of wishful thinking


Edited by piracetam (12/22/08 12:03 PM)

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InvisibleMUSH HEAD420
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Re: LSH [Re: piracetam]
    #9477725 - 12/22/08 11:23 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I just posted this .......  http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/9472012/an/0/page/0

and have had no one even say a word on it.

I even found a easy way to make my own chloroform ...  http://www.sci-spot.com/chemistry/chloroform.htm

#2: Extraction of Lysergic Acid Amides


    Start with domestic Morning Glory seeds, the young seeds of
    the Hawaiian Baby Wood Rose, cultured ergot or naturally
    occurring ergot compounds.


NOTE: Morning Glory seeds may be coated with a toxic chemical by
the seed company in order to prevent ingestion.  If a packet of
seeds contains coated seeds this fact should be stated on the
container.  Soaking the seeds in warm water for 1/2 hour and
rinsing in a strainer should remove this coating.

NOTE: while many varieties of morning glory contain the active LSA
(Lysergic acid amide), the yield varies greatly.  Therefore, use
only Pearly Gates, Wedding Bells, and Heavenly Blue varieties for
best results.


    Reduce seed material to a fine powder in a blender, and spread
    it out to dry.  Grind again if not fine enough after the first
    time due to dampness.

    Saturate powdered seed material with lighter fluid, naphtha or
    ligroine.  When completely saturated, it should have the
    consistency of soup.

    Pour into a chromatography column and let it sit overnight.

    Remove the fatty oils from the material by dripping the
    solvent through the column slowly, and testing the liquid that
    comes through for fats by evaporating a drop on clean glass
    until it leaves no greasy film.  (It should take several
    ounces of solvent for each ounce of seeds).

    Mix 9 volumes of chloroform with 1 volume of concentrated
    ammonium hydroxide and shake in a separatory funnel.  When it
    settles, the chloroform layer will be on the bottom.  Drain
    the chloroform layer and discard the top layer.

    Drip the chloroform wash through the column and save the
    extract.  test continuously by evaporating a drop on clean
    glass until it ceases to fluoresce.

          [It is NOT explicit in the source, but if extracting
          from ergot, I would start with the ergot alkaloid base at
          this point.  --Ed.]

    Evaporate the chloroform extracts, and dissolve the residue in
    the minimum amount of a 3% tartaric acid solution.  If all the
    residue doesn't dissolve, place it into suspension by shaking
    vigorously.

    Color the solution with an acid base indicator, and titrate to
    find the approximate number of moles of the alkaloid present.

    Transfer the solution to a separatory funnel, and wash the
    other vessel with acid in order to get all the alkaloid out.
    Pour the washings in the funnel also.

    Bring the pH up to make the solution basic by adding sodium
    bicarbonate solution, and add an equal volume of chloroform.

    Shake thoroughly, let it settle, remove the bottom layer and
    set aside.
    Again add an equal portion of chloroform, shake, let settle
    and remove bottom layer.

    Combine chloroform extracts (bottom layers) and evaporate.

    The residue remaining after evaporation is a semi-pure
    concentrate of LSA (lysergic acid amide).  The amide requires
    some experimentation for dosage, but 1 mg of the concentrate
    is a reasonable starting point.  1 mg LSA will produce effects
    comparable to 100 micrograms of LSD.

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Offlinepiracetam
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Re: LSH [Re: MUSH HEAD420]
    #9477855 - 12/22/08 11:51 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

what exactly is your question?
in that thread you basically posted the traditional lsd synth.
LSD is not (yet) found in natural sources.
and yeah, making chloroform is straightforward...add bleaching powder to acetone (or rubbing alcohol), extract with xylene, and redistill.

Edited by piracetam (12/22/08 12:00 PM)

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InvisibleMUSH HEAD420
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Re: LSH [Re: piracetam]
    #9478522 - 12/22/08 02:17 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

My qustion is .....if you can synthesize LSD using LSA found in hbwr seeds or if that is just a myth or theory or if it just wealds a shity end product.  :thumbup:

because it would be nice to find a synth that does not require the dreaded Ergot.

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Offlinepiracetam
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Re: LSH [Re: MUSH HEAD420]
    #9478591 - 12/22/08 02:32 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

theoretically speaking, perhaps by chromatographic isolation of the lysergic acid d-tartrate salt (prepared with d-tartaric acid) as the starting compound.
remember, you have to observe stereospecificity, only d-LSD is active.


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"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: LSH [Re: shponglecybin]
    #9480686 - 12/22/08 10:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shponglecybin said:
so to get back to lsa and peppermint oil,if its not lsh is their anyone on these boards who does know what it is,or why it causes lsd like effects at low doses.




There is no information whatsoever to shed light on why anyone taking LSA + acetaldehyde might experience effects distinct from LSA.


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Absent.

Edited by Plasmid (12/22/08 10:13 PM)

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: LSH [Re: 04281969]
    #9480738 - 12/22/08 10:10 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

04281969 said:
But to my understanding, LSH = LSA + acetaldehyde.
And, LSA + acetaldehyde = LSH like effects.




So what?  The evidence shows that the hydrolysis reaction is favourable.  There is not any reason to think that the reverse reaction (LSA + acetaldehyde ---> LSH) is occuring.  The fact that you are asking about other substances in peppermint oil just indicates that you are looking for purely speculative ideas with which to prepare ad hoc suggestions.  There is no evidence of a chemical reaction taking place because nobody has looked for any.  You can't claim that self-administered doses resulting in "LSH like" effects are even present (that's complete bullshit - please - the pharmacology of LSH is basically unknown and hasn't been demonstrated).

Quote:


Or, is there some other psychoactive substance that the LSA + peppermint oil combination could be making if not LSH?




The whole point of the answers to the earlier question is to say that nobody knows what if anything is going on, if anything is even happening at all.  Answering your questions should just make it clear that yes, we can speculate that any number of things could be happening, but there is still absolutely no reason to suggest an explanation.  Stop with the blind, empty speculation.  Whether or not the addition of peppermint to MG seeds or HBWR (or other LSAs source) has ANY effect still isn't clear.  If you believe I'm wrong then please feel free to try convincing me otherwise.


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Invisible04281969
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Re: LSH [Re: Plasmid]
    #9482131 - 12/23/08 08:03 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

You're right, the first thing to do might be to run some tests to determine if there actually is a noticeable difference made by the oil.  The reports of others sound convincing, but I haven't had that proven to me personally yet.

I am not claiming that effects from my self-administered experiments are anything.  I personally haven't felt any difference between LSA extract with or without peppermint oil. 

Yes, in other words, I asked, "if not acetaldehyde, then what could it be that is making this reported difference".  (This is all based upon the assumption that the effects are real.)  Do you have some "ad hoc" speculation on it?  In other words, what's your best educated guess? 

From what I gather, you're not willing to hazard a guess.  You just want to say that nothing can be created, no difference can possibly be made by adding the oil, but you won't come out and say that it's all placebo.  Why not?  You can save yourself so much time and effort if you just wrote "placebo" on every thread on LSH instead of the long, snarky tirades.

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Offlinepiracetam
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Re: LSH [Re: 04281969]
    #9482175 - 12/23/08 08:38 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

menthol/menthone bind "cold" receptors and has mild analgesic properties.
menthol is present in some stomach medicines to help relieve irritation, this would likely account for any  report that mentions reduced nausea


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Re: LSH [Re: 04281969]
    #9482186 - 12/23/08 08:40 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

You just want to say that nothing can be created, no difference can possibly be made by adding the oil, but you won't come out and say that it's all placebo.




No that's not what I'm saying at all.  I am not saying that no reaction is taking place but that there is no evidence of a reaction.  Based on the chemistry involved, there are a few reactions which I think are far more likely to occur between the LSAs and acetaldehyde (nucleophilic attack at the C2 would even be more likely than the amide nitrogen) but whether the reaction would stop there or continue to react into a dimer is a matter of speculation.  I'm saying that any number of things could be happening, so there is no point in blindly guessing without any evidence.  Placebo is only one possible explanation, but you're wrong if you think that's the explanation I favour.

I could come up with at least three reactions between LSA + acetaldehyde which I believe would more likely to occur than the production of LSH, but so what?  There isn't any evidence that any one of these is happening, so why bother speculating that any one of them is happening?  If you're interested in what other sites on LSA might attack that carbonyl carbon then take a look at my posts in the long thread in the other forum about "LSH for the curious."

I did not say that no difference can be made by the oil.  I don't know where you're getting that from, but you've really tried to put words in my mouth there.  Please don't try telling me that the explanation I favour is "placebo" because it isn't.

Quote:

This is all based upon the assumption that the effects are real.




Yes, of course.  I assume that when people report the effects of a drug that they're telling the truth, but all I'm doing is suspending judgment on the cause of the effects.  I am also pointing out that there is not really any reliable data showing that the effects of this preparation are different than what would be expected from a typical preparation of LSAs from MG/HBWR seeds.


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Re: LSH [Re: Plasmid]
    #9484961 - 12/23/08 06:44 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

So you believe it is the acetaldehyde that is responsible for whatever is happening, but nobody is creating the "LSH" that people are talking about (and Hoffmann experimented with)? 

I was just curious about the odds of there being another active compound to be made from LSA + acetaldehyde other than "LSH"? 

How do we determine what is actually happening?  We need someone with the knowledge and resources to investigate the matter.  Of course, it isn't worth losing a job to satisfy someone else's curiosity about it.  But, is there anything you can do to help clarify the subject?

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Re: LSH [Re: 04281969]
    #9487720 - 12/24/08 05:49 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

04281969 said:
So you believe it is the acetaldehyde that is responsible for whatever is happening




NO!
What is so hard about this to understand?
I also said that placebo is one possible explanation, but it's not the one I favour.
I don't know if the acetaldehyde is involved at all.

Enterpyromancer (sic?), Piracetam and myself have all given the same answer at least once each: nobody knows what's going on.

Once again, my answer is:

I don't know.

There simply is no evidence available with which to answer the question (the question being, "what is responsible for the apparently different effects when LSAs are mixed with peppermint oil?).  The question is still sort of a ghost question to me because I am not at all convinced that there is anything to explain in the first place.

Quote:

How do we determine what is actually happening?  But, is there anything you can do to help clarify the subject?




Running TLC plates is not that difficult.  I'd suggest a simple MG seed extraction of LSAs and run those beside that extract + acetaldehyde (after given time to go through a presumptive reaction).

And to be quite frank, I believe that I have helped to clarify the subject greatly.  Take a look at that huge thread about LSH and you'll see a world of speculation.  The clearest commentary that can be made on the matter is that the experiments were all poorly designed, the primary research material was hardly relevant to the desired reaction and nobody has produced any useful information whatsoever.  My advice is for everyone to forget everything they think they've heard about LSH and start over.  I can start by trying to find information relevant to the synthesis of LSH.


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OfflineCulpepers
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Re: LSH [Re: Plasmid]
    #9487932 - 12/24/08 06:59 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, now, what's "LSH" even supposed to stand for? :smile:

(I'm sorry for being slightly off-topic..)


--------------------
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Re: LSH [Re: Culpepers]
    #9487948 - 12/24/08 07:03 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide.

Lysergic acid N-(α-hydroxyethyl)amide.

CAS# 3343-15-5


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OfflineN2loma
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Re: LSH [Re: Plasmid]
    #9489274 - 12/24/08 01:11 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
Lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide.

Lysergic acid N-(α-hydroxyethyl)amide.

CAS# 3343-15-5




I guess the most logical step would be to acquire some lab-made LSH and experiment on that alongside pure LSA or LSA mixes from HBWR or MG (to see if there's any real difference in effect, anyways).

If LSH and LSAs are essentially equivalent, then there'd be no real reason to convert LSAs to LSH in the first place.


--------------------
"So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean/
If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be" -Divide by Disturbed

Good Guitars Don't Cry

Edited by N2loma (12/24/08 01:12 PM)

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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: LSH [Re: N2loma]
    #9489406 - 12/24/08 01:43 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

They aren't similar, refer to Hofmann's bioassays.

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