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Yrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,312
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month

CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

#9425460 - 12/13/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

i'm wondering about everyone's opinion about this question that just popped up in my head.

for those unfamiliar with botany/biology, CAM plants are a special type of C₄ plant that have special adaptations for surviving in very hot and dry environments (aka cacti and succulents). Basically, CAM plants take in all their CO₂ at night during cooler temperatures, before daylight hours when the stomata close up to conserve water in the extremely hot and dry air. the CO₂ is stored as malic acid until the sun rises, when it is converted back to carbon dioxide and used in photosynthesis.

my question is this, considering that CAM plants have this specifically adapted time cycle to survive in a hostile climate, would placing these plants under 24 hours of light inhibit growth? (by not giving them a required dark period to fix CO₂) Or do you think that given less extreme temperatures and more availability of water, these responses can be overridden and CAM plants will be more flexible in terms of stomata opening and closing?

--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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felixhigh
Scientist

Registered: 06/24/01
Posts: 7,565
Loc: Ly
Last seen: 4 days, 14 hours

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Yrat]
#9425540 - 12/13/08 05:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Thats a good question, I´m not sure as all my babies are grown outdoors.

I cannot see a cactus stop growing or dying just because its with lights 24/7, I think it would grow.

FH

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KBG1977

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 11,017

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: felixhigh]
#9425585 - 12/13/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

you know I wondered that very thing too.I really believe that you can grow cacti under 24 hour lighting without any darkness.I mean why not?Any other plant will still grow fine,and they grow a lot faster too.Another thing is,they say cacti go into a dormant period during the winter,and grow very little,well I still have some still flowering,and mine haven't slowed down a bit.I think it has to do with temperature.It gets freezing cold at night during the desert during the winter,so I believe that's the trigger along with the decreased day light for them to go dormant,but under constant lighting,and warm conditions,I think cacti will continue to grow,and flower all year round.

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Cactusdan
Patecatl

Registered: 10/11/07
Posts: 7,024
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: KBG1977]
#9425629 - 12/13/08 05:24 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think I remember hearing they need the dormant period in order to flower.

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felixhigh
Scientist

Registered: 06/24/01
Posts: 7,565
Loc: Ly
Last seen: 4 days, 14 hours

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Cactusdan]
#9425894 - 12/13/08 06:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, and the colder the dormant period the more flowers they produce.

FH

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rchtyp
Ethnoring Administrator

Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 363

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: felixhigh]
#9425950 - 12/13/08 06:24 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

felixhigh said:
Yes, and the colder the dormant period the more flowers they produce.

FH

This is true with most species (including humans), it's a survival mechanism in which it detects death may be near, so it spreads itself.

I don't think a cactus would be able to live under complete 24 hour light because of its genetic makeup, but the only way to be sure is to try.

Good luck,
rch

--------------------
Creator of The Ethnoring

Edited by rchtyp (12/13/08 06:25 PM)

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jds

Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 3,083

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: rchtyp]
#9426059 - 12/13/08 06:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Trying that would be worse than doing tests on humans! You can't risk killing a poor cactus for science!

--------------------
“No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten.”

― Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

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rchtyp
Ethnoring Administrator

Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 363

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: jds]
#9426220 - 12/13/08 07:24 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HellDragon said:
Trying that would be worse than doing tests on humans! You can't risk killing a poor cactus for science!

How is that worse? A seedling is basically the same as a fetus.

If you can't do it, then just wait for someone else to try it.

--------------------
Creator of The Ethnoring

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jds

Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 3,083

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: rchtyp]
#9426320 - 12/13/08 07:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Why would you do that to a poor seedling, they deserve a better life :frown:

:frown:

--------------------
“No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten.”

― Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

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rchtyp
Ethnoring Administrator

Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 363

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: jds]
#9426416 - 12/13/08 07:58 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HellDragon said:
Why would you do that to a poor seedling, they deserve a better life

If it works, then you have a very happy little guy, otherwise, that little guy died knowing he was going to revolutionize everyone's cacti growing :shrug:

:shrug:

OR

You could just keep it natural and not use a light at all.

- rch

--------------------
Creator of The Ethnoring

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JohnAdams
Born Green Thumb

Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 427
Loc: Anywhere but here

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: rchtyp]
#9426998 - 12/13/08 09:26 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:
felixhigh said:
Yes, and the colder the dormant period the more flowers they produce.

FH

This is true with most species (including humans)

I wasn't aware that we produced flowers :uhoh:

:uhoh:

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felixhigh
Scientist

Registered: 06/24/01
Posts: 7,565
Loc: Ly
Last seen: 4 days, 14 hours

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: JohnAdams]
#9427284 - 12/13/08 10:26 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The flowers are the genitalia of the plants. :smirk:

:smirk:

FH

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Yrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,312
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: felixhigh]
#9427695 - 12/13/08 11:51 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

felixhigh said:
The flowers are the genitalia of the plants

:lol:

the question originally arose in my mind because today i placed a bunch of succulents and cacti under some lights that will be on 24/7 throughout the rest of the winter. i guess i'll see what happens.

--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 15,033
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: KBG1977]
#9427778 - 12/14/08 12:12 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KBG1977 said:
you know I wondered that very thing too.I really believe that you can grow cacti under 24 hour lighting without any darkness.I mean why not?Any other plant will still grow fine,and they grow a lot faster too.Another thing is,they say cacti go into a dormant period during the winter,and grow very little,well I still have some still flowering,and mine haven't slowed down a bit.I think it has to do with temperature.It gets freezing cold at night during the desert during the winter,so I believe that's the trigger along with the decreased day light for them to go dormant,but under constant lighting,and warm conditions,I think cacti will continue to grow,and flower all year round.

There is a very good reason as to why not:
the defining thing with crassuean acid metabolism plants is that they have separated the stages of photosynthesis. CO₂ is fixated at night in these plants and it is not only the problem with opening of stomata that lies behind this. They will survive 24/7 light, but their growth and health will be affected.

--------------------

Rodney Brooks on Robots

Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."

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JohnAdams
Born Green Thumb

Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 427
Loc: Anywhere but here

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Nalim]
#9427914 - 12/14/08 12:41 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Yrat, that picture made me laugh my ass off! :rofl:

:rofl:

--------------------
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Dr. uarewotueat
Peyote Farmer

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 16,545
Loc: Uk / Philippines
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Yrat]
#9428533 - 12/14/08 04:07 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

i think that if they are grown in a less hostile environment then that may alter the way they open their stomata...
who's to say that on a cool day in the desert that cacti won't take advantage and take in co2...
plants are highly adaptive so i suspect that they would take advantage of any opportunity that is presented to them...

but who knows for sure, it would be interesting to see a study of such plants to see what actually triggers them to open their stomata...
they may have evolved so that light is the trigger or temperature, or even both...

anyone got any info on that?

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blazed123
Bing

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 831
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
#9428576 - 12/14/08 04:26 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Ive grown cacti seedlings under 24 hours. The certainly will not die as a result.

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Dr. uarewotueat
Peyote Farmer

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 16,545
Loc: Uk / Philippines
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: blazed123]
#9428597 - 12/14/08 04:37 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

of course it is not going to kill them, but in the long term i suspect that it would have an adverse effect...

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Dr. uarewotueat
Peyote Farmer

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 16,545
Loc: Uk / Philippines
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
#9428655 - 12/14/08 05:13 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

some good info here

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kadakuda
The Great"Green".......East

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
#9433538 - 12/14/08 10:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

my question is this, considering that CAM plants have this specifically adapted time cycle to survive in a hostile climate, would placing these plants under 24 hours of light inhibit growth? (by not giving them a required dark period to fix CO2) Or do you think that given less extreme temperatures and more availability of water, these responses can be overridden and CAM plants will be more flexible in terms of stomata opening and closing?

yes it will. i think it is like uare says and under lower temps and softer light they dont close their stoma, or at least as much. when i did this i found the following:
growth is faster
plants are bloated
REALLY weak (easy to die from disease such as rot)
they dont keep a nice shape (bad for collector species/types)
spines become pathetic (also bad for collector species)

the advantage is they do grow faster (around 20C and 24 hour light with somewhat higher moisture)

BUT

they become worthless and weak and easy to die.

fun to play with, but if your looking for nice hardy plants, no point in my opinion :shrug:

:shrug:

--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Nibin
Getting there

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Yrat]
#9434984 - 12/15/08 04:03 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

We asked my plant physiology professor exactly this question. His answer was as follows:

CAM plants are also capable of normal C3 metabolism. This normally happens in the morning and evening when heat is low.

A CAM plant grown for 24h under constant light will, if the heat is not too great, use the C3 cycle as long as it has enough water.

But, it throws their regulating system off and as already mentioned they grow in funny ways.

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Yrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,312
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Nibin]
#9435142 - 12/15/08 05:51 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:

good stuff. thanks guys.

--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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Dr. uarewotueat
Peyote Farmer

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 16,545
Loc: Uk / Philippines
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Nibin]
#9435487 - 12/15/08 08:49 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nibin said:
We asked my plant physiology professor exactly this question.

i wish i had a professor's brain to pick about these sorts of questions :yesnod:

:yesnod:

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Nibin
Getting there

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
#9441014 - 12/15/08 11:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Dr. uarewotueat said:
Quote:

Nibin said:
We asked my plant physiology professor exactly this question.

i wish i had a professor's brain to pick about these sorts of questions

I'm doing a 3 year agricultural engineering course.

It's 3 years of subjects like hydroponic cultivation, Plant production technologies, Edaphology (study of soil), Agricultural instalations, etc
:evil:

:evil:

:rotfl:

--------------------
Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy

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Dr. uarewotueat
Peyote Farmer

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 16,545
Loc: Uk / Philippines
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Nibin]
#9441573 - 12/16/08 01:47 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

that could be useful for some things :awesome:

:awesome:

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saysay15
Stranger

Registered: 02/20/15
Posts: 1
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months

Re: CAM plants (cacti, succs) and 24hr light?

[Re: Yrat]
#21729311 - 05/27/15 04:14 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

hey! What ever happened to your cacti? Is it safe to grow them and succulents under 24hr 600 watt MH?

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