|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
gregoron
There and back again...
Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 31
|
Tryptamine: A new look at an old Gartz typo, info no one seems to realize
#9372917 - 12/05/08 02:23 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Hey all,
[EDIT] I have edited the second paragraph of this post to fix a typo which makes my statements confusing. "Plasmid" had quoted my typo to point it out to me, once I realized my error I wanted to fix this post to avoid future confusion. My typo was typing "185.86 ppm" instead of "185.86 mg" in one sentence.
We have all read the numerous threads about the one Dr. Gartz paper where he used tryptamine HCL to increase the potency of mushrooms. This thread is not just another potency thread rehashed from the same paper, I believe I found an error in the original translation of that now infamous paper...
I believe there was a miss-translation from German to English in one of Dr. Gartz's papers[2]. I believe that is why like people 'Pslocybe Fanaticus' saw fruit body deformities when using 25mM which equals 4,917 ppm per gallon of water !!! I believe it should have been translated to 0.25mM which is about 49.17 ppm and 185.86 mg per gallon of water which is MUCH more reasonable then almost 5kppm! In another of Dr. Gartz's papers he tested the inclusion of DMT at 0.25mM[1]. I could be wrong and have yet to test with tryptaime HCL but from all the reports I have read people get deformed growth which leads me to thinks that would be from the very high ppm level of 25mM.
I have an order order of tryptamine HCL coming in soon and I will start testing with it soon too.
In the following paper Gartz used 0.25mM of diethylamine hydrochloride (N,N-diethylamine hydrochloride):
- [1] J. Basic Microbiol. 1989;29(6):347-52, "Biotransformation of tryptamine derivatives in mycelial cultures of Psilocybe", Gartz J., Institut fur Biotechnologie der AdW, Leipzig.
Yet in this paper Gartz was said to use 25mM of trypataime hydrochloried (3-(2-Aminoethyl)indole hydrochloride):
- [2] Planta Medica, vol. 55, p. 249-250 (1989), "Biotransformation of Tryptamine in Fruiting Mycelia of Psilocybe cubensis", Gartz J., Institute of Biotechnology, Academy of Sciences of the GDR, Leipzig.
I think he used 0.25mM in BOTH cases, 5kppm just seems way too strong to me. Other studies I have read off topic but regarding strengths of precursors was not over 1 or 2kppm which still seems high to me...
When I start testing with tryptamine HCL I will update. In the mean time I want to understand and streamline TLC quantitative testing. I want to use quantitative TLC to test the addition of tryptamine HLC and other additives I include in my bulk subs...
Edited by gregoron (12/06/08 02:46 PM)
|
Plasmid
Absent
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 1,719
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
|
Re: Tryptamine: A new look at an old Gartz typo, info no one seems to realize [Re: gregoron]
#9374357 - 12/05/08 05:33 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
gregoron said: I believe that is why like people 'Pslocybe Fanaticus' saw fruit body deformities when using 25mM which equals 4,917 ppm !!! I believe it should have been translated to 0.25mM which is about 185.86 ppm which is MUCH more reasonable then almost 5kppm!
Something doesn't make sense. If 25 mM of something is 4917 ppm then how could 0.25 mM be 186 ppm?
Quote:
I think he used 0.25mM in BOTH cases, 5kppm just seems way too strong to me.
Can you provide a reason why this seems too strong?
-------------------- Absent.
|
gregoron
There and back again...
Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 31
|
Re: Tryptamine: A new look at an old Gartz typo, info no one seems to realize [Re: Plasmid]
#9374633 - 12/05/08 06:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Hey,
Yup your right, something doesn't seem right: I forgot to say 186ppm is for 1 gallon of water at 0.25mM. To reach 0.25mM tryptamine HCL per liter you need 49.17 ppm (rounded up).
As to the strength, well 5kppm is VERY strong. Over 1000ppm of most anything is considered strong. I do not believe I have read a study were that strength of anything is suggested, I could be wrong. I also take the fact that PF had deformed mushrooms to be a sign that 5kppm is too strong. Also, to reach 25mM it would cost over $50.00 per gallon of tryptamine (if I remember correctly).
That is why I want to use quantitative TLC, to see if 0.25mM or 25mM is correct.
Below is my thought process, let me know if you see flaws, thanks!
Legend:
TRYHCL = Tryptamine Hydrocloride
M = Molar Mass, aka mole
g/mol = Molecular weight
mg = milligram
mM millimolar
ppm = parts per million
Math:
1. Molecular weight of TRYHCL is 196.679 g/mol
2. 1M solution will contain 196.679 g per liter of water
3. 1 mM is 1 / 1000 M
4. 1 mg is 1 / 1000 gram
5. Divide both the TRYHCL g/mol and M by 1000
6. 196.679 mg per liter equals 196.679 ppm which equals 1 mM
7. Multiply 196.679 by 0.25 to reach 0.25mM per liter which would be 49.16975 mg of tryptaime HCL per liter.
8. Multiply 49.16975 mg by 3.78 (one US gallon in liters) to find required mg of TRYCHI to reach 0.25 mM per gallon.
9. That means 185.861655 mg of tryptamine HCL per gallon of water is required to reach 0.25 mM.
10. Measuring dry weight with a digital jewelry scale is very easy when grams are the unit of measure for dry weight of substances
11. Divide 185.861655 mg by 1,000 to find the gram per gallon of TRYHCL requied to reach 0.25 mM
12. To reach 0.25 mM of TRYHCL in a gallon of water one must use 0.186 g of TRYHCL per gallon of water
Edited by gregoron (12/06/08 02:58 PM)
|
Plasmid
Absent
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 1,719
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
|
Re: Tryptamine: A new look at an old Gartz typo, info no one seems to realize [Re: gregoron]
#9375316 - 12/05/08 08:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I'm not sure I understand how 186 ppm is "for 1 gallon of water at 0.25 mM." I think you're just making a typo.
At approx 200 g/mol, a 0.25 mM soluton requires 50 mg/L which is approx. 50 ppm. For 1 gallon, you'd need around 185 mg but it would still be 50 ppm.
-------------------- Absent.
|
gregoron
There and back again...
Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 31
|
Re: Tryptamine: A new look at an old Gartz typo, info no one seems to realize [Re: Plasmid]
#9379037 - 12/06/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
doh!
186 ppm should read "186 mg" which I agree would still be just under 50ppm (49.16975) in a gallon of water. Thanks for making me see that
And I found another typo: The figure of about 5000ppm from 25mM per gallon is correct but I did not note how much tryptamine HCL it would require to reach 5000ppm. To achieve 1mM of tryptamine HCL per liter of water we need about 196mg which as we both have noted would equal about 196ppm (see step #6 and #7). Then to find 25mM per liter we would multiply 196 by 25 which equals 4,900mg of tryptamine HCL per liter of water, not gallon of water! Wow that would be expensive...I was working on the assumption it would require about 5000mg per gallon to achieve 25mM of tryptamine HCL. But I did not multiply that mg per liter figure by liters in a gallon (3.78). That solution equals the total mg of tryptamine HCL required per gallon to achieve 25mM. Which would equal about 18,522mg of tryptamine HCL per gallon of water which would be about 5000ppm.
Both your and my mg/g per liter and mg/g per gallon are the same so the math is right on both our ends. But I got a bit turned around (I thought) when I was trying to convert 25mM of tryptamie HCL to ppm.
Does it now look correct to you?
Edited by gregoron (12/06/08 02:30 PM)
|
gregoron
There and back again...
Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 31
|
Re: Tryptamine: A new look at an old Gartz typo, info no one seems to realize [Re: gregoron]
#9379246 - 12/06/08 02:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Oh yea,
I have experience using many PGRs on plants and on p.cubensis, specifically brassionlide and soon IAA with p.cubensis. I have read much research on use of GA3 and other PGRs with growth of edible mushrooms and I can not think of one study where the researchers have used a PGR over 100ppm. I have never used over 1ppm of any PGR on mushrooms and only up to 125ppm on some plants, PGRs are added in low quantity in most cases. I generally use <1ppm of all PGRs in horticulture and mycology...
I know tryptamine is not a PGR but a precursor so maybe more IS better but still do not think almost 5000ppm is what Dr. Gartz used. Expense is one limiting factor, it would never be cost effective. The main reason I think he used 0.25mM and not 25mM is 50ppm (0.25mM) is considered strong in terms of PGRs and other hormone type of additives. I would image 50ppm of a precursor would have a strong effect and 5000ppm would do one of two things: injure the mycelium/mushroom and/or go unused and wasted, PF found the former to be true and I believe the latter would be true also. I could not see how the mycelium could process 5000ppm worth of anything, but I could be totally wrong.
What do you think? Do you imagine 5000ppm as being too strong?
Edited by gregoron (12/06/08 02:28 PM)
|
4 ho cultivar
Transcending plains
Registered: 11/18/08
Posts: 379
Loc: Central, Oregon {represen...
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
Re: Tryptamine: A new look at an old Gartz typo, info no one seems to realize [Re: gregoron]
#9422894 - 12/13/08 05:22 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
well 5000 does seem pretty strong. I wouldn't think you would need an abundunce of the precursor but what do I know. Keep us informed. I like this, can't wait to read your results.
-------------------- :Patience be thy virtue Blurring the line between reality and dreams Mr. Winkie says: "Procrastinators unite................................tommorrow!! G.Kahuna said: "Plus you get all the fun from taking a walk {and} shooting mycelium at cow droppings with a super soaker. Now beat that!"
|
|