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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
as above, so below. so below...
    #941988 - 10/08/02 08:22 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

assuming the idea of evolution is basically correct, life has evolved in terms of ever-increasing complexity. i guess the  starting point of what is generally accepted as 'life' would've been a single cell.
what were these cells capable of? not much, absorbing moisture and light then dividing into 2?
things moved on, organisms were able to move under their own steam, greater awareness of the environment developed, greater motor skills for interacting with the physical slowly came into being....to animals where basic emotions & desires come into play - fear, hunger, tiredness, group interaction, desire for power.
millions of years pass til homo sapiens occurs (this is all assuming we are not just the descendants of stranded time travellers or aliens, etc :wink:).
at some point we developed enough self-awareness to ask questions about
ourselves and our existence.
in the last century, science has been able to verify what certain teachings have
claimed for years - our universe is made of energy, we are made of energy.
e=mc2.
it is an illusion made up from the buzz and cackle of electricity. our bodies, everything we can see and touch is nothing but vibration, there is only the illusion that we are solid.....how to break that spell ?

got to thinking about computer games. in the 70's we had 'pong', 2 white lines and a white dot, all under direct control from the users.
soon these evolved into 'space invaders', which grooved back and forth from side to side with their leader scuttling across the top, checkin the scene. except our own 'rep' all able to move albeit in a limited fashion.
like us, an evolution in terms of complexity.
recently, a friend lent me a copy of a pc game, close combat.
i found it interesting that the lil soldiers running around had ratings for health, energy, bravery, experience, skill and cohesiveness (with his squad).
if left alone the characters in this game will quite happily carry out their duties as best they can.
obviously the pc game character is still quite a simple thing, but in terms of evolution its not bad for about 25 years.
how long did it take for life in our spectrum to evolve to a similar level of capability?
i saw in 'the sims' they even reproduce.

the characters in these games cannot evolve themselves, they are evolved, strangely, often in our own image (where did i hear that line?).
i wonder if there are parallels in our dimension?

so if one makes a graph of the evolutionary curve of life and applies it to the evolution of pc characters, what took us millions of years, took about 25 in the digital domain.
does that mean a few years from now the characters will 'awaken', discover that they are nothing but bits of electricity buzzing in a computer.....their personalities programmed.....hhahahah like us?!?  oops
maybe at this point we withdraw little from directing the game and sit back to see what they do with themselves.
some of them ponder about us, but somehow its beyond anything they can conceive with the tools they have.

we can shutdown anytime, pull the plug, the energy that makes their world will be gone............couldn't the same be said for our universe, something we cannot understand is sustaining this energy that we are in, something keeps it all moving.
maybe the game is just getting interesting so we sit back and just watch, sometimes directing a bit of damage at someone.

i guess shortly after they discover their 'dna', computer code -1110101001010010
i remember reading a dna sequence in narby's 'the cosmic serpent' that went
acacacacacacacacacacacacacacacaca for about 400 letters. kind of similar in some ways.

what is it that will allow them to develop awareness, what is it that allowed us to...?

is there a point when they look out from the pooter screen and say "well, ive got you sassed"
the way things are going they will do it to us before we are able to do it to our
game-master. that could be embarassing.

 


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Offlinepattern
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Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: mr crisper]
    #942080 - 10/08/02 09:13 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

awesome post!!!  i think there will definitely be a point where we can just let AI go free on a computer, with no human direction necessary for it to run.  these AIs could interact with each other in a simulated environment.  i suppose if enough resources and power are given to them, they could begin analyzing their environment, predicting it, and altering it.  should be fun to watch  :grin:

heres some thoughts on AI:

http://naturally.servehttp.com/documents.html

and some simulations:

http://naturally.servehttp.com/projects.html


 


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: pattern]
    #942145 - 10/08/02 09:44 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The best AI yet developed is many, many generations away from even the inkling of self-directed thought.

Deep Blue, the computer that soundly beat world chess champion Karpov, utilized specially optimized hardware, a huge "book" of known openings and used "brute force" rather than "pure analysis" or "thinking" to overwhelm its opponent to search through billions of possible moves in seconds. It did not learn from mistakes.

TD-Gammon was the first neural network backgammon program to play at an expert level. (My hand-crafted Expert Backgammon beat it in the 1993 World Cup Computer Championship, though TD-Gammon outplayed my program.) This program initially played with no logic othern than basic rules and learned a little bit from every game that it played. After some 500,000 games, it played at an extremely high level of skill. Another neural-network program named Snowie is now the best player of both humans and computers.

Once the neural network is full trained, it cannot learn any more. This is referred to as inelasticity. If new factors are later decided by human programmers to be important, the entire long and tedious training process must be started from scratch.

Also important to note is that the backgammon neural networks do not apply to other fields. Neural networks are also useful for diagnosing medical conditions are are of a completely different structure and are based on thousands of prerecorded diagnosis.

Neural networks are also called interpolation engines. They do very well on data within a set of previously seen examples, but go outside the set (extrapolation) and results are unpredictable and usually erroneous.

Conclusion: Progress is being made, but at nowhere near the speed and level that was previously predicted. Human intervention is required at many steps of the process.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinecrass_uk
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Registered: 07/03/02
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Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: mr crisper]
    #942226 - 10/08/02 10:17 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Try looking at the earth as a big motor/ generator as it spins it cuts trough the lines of magnetic flux, this i think is poss how energy is transfered around' if you look at three phase theory (elecricity gerneration ) then look at the earth in a similuar way you can see this.


--------------------
come on baby light my fire.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
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Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: Swami]
    #942362 - 10/08/02 11:12 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

> The best AI yet developed is many, many generations away from even the
> inkling of self-directed thought.

We are many generations away from any simulation of human intelligence, but I believe we will see independent "mini" AI in our lifetime. The toy bear in the movie AI, for instance, something like that is within reason (~20 years).

> Neural networks

Neural networks are one data structure being used to create AI. There are many other algorithms. Bayesian networks for example. I imagine there will be a fusion of many algorithms that will be required to progress further. Neural networks are great tools, but a dead-end if used solo.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Registered: 11/24/01
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Loc: Bloomington, IN
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Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: mr crisper]
    #942620 - 10/08/02 01:14 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

maybe at this point we withdraw little from directing the game and sit back to see what they do with themselves.

Kind of like our Creator / Creators, huh?  :crazy: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: mr crisper]
    #943007 - 10/08/02 03:30 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Evolution is a farce.

AI will never happen.

Your fantasies are beautiful, but unlikely.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: ]
    #943025 - 10/08/02 03:37 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Are you referring specifically to biological evolution? Would this also apply to the influence of man of various species?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: Evolving]
    #943080 - 10/08/02 04:00 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I am specifically referring to the erroneous idea that all life has developed slowly over billions of years starting with single celled organisms and proceeded to expand so that all of life is one huge phylogenetic tree.

Man has been able to create variations within a type.  Nature can do the same.

Neither can cross the preestablished barrier that defines "kind" or "type".

I would love to discuss this in depth as soon as they build the science forum.

This is neither the time not the place to discuss this topic in depth.

But thanks for asking. :smile:

Cheers, 


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Registered: 09/14/02
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Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: ]
    #943081 - 10/08/02 04:00 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Evolution is a farce.





please explain.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: ]
    #943083 - 10/08/02 04:01 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

*renames you Mr_ChristianFundamentalist


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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Anonymous

Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #943092 - 10/08/02 04:04 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Your ignorance is showing again, m'dear. :smile:

Someday, when you're all growed up and we have a place to discuss it I'll gladly pin your ears back to your skull and enjoy doing so. :wink:

Have a nice day.  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: 


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: ]
    #943093 - 10/08/02 04:07 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

do you, by any chance, have a PhD in evolutionary biology?


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Edited by Albino_Jesus (10/08/02 04:08 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #943101 - 10/08/02 04:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Why?  Do you need one?

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

My credentials are more than adequate I can assure you.

Poke around in this forum and look at a few of the things I've written.  Then guess what level of educational development I have achieved.  I have written more than enough to keep the dullest mind entertained.

Enjoy my threads, free of charge. :wink:

Dog Ciao,

 


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: ]
    #943107 - 10/08/02 04:14 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

just checking.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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Anonymous

Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #943112 - 10/08/02 04:18 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I was serious about reading my threads. You should find the one on Quantum Mechanics most interesting. I have very deep credentials in the science field, particularly biology and a specialty in mycology. Why do you think I am here?

In all seriousness we have been discussing the possibility of a science forum. I think it is badly needed. After all, this IS a science message board, isn't it?

Cheers,


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: ]
    #943245 - 10/08/02 05:00 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

re : evolution is a farce.
in a way i agree, i guess the first 2 lines of my post indicate my position.
but would you concur that life tends towards ever-increasing complexity, or as t.mckenna put it - descent into novelty?

i don't really think a.i. will go far either. but you gotta learn to crawl before you can walk.

maybe the underlying purpose of making this thread is to point out, that in some ways, we exist in an environment similar to that of pc game characters............the substance of their bodies is the same substance that makes ours. our world is no more real than theirs, just a lot of enegy vibrating.
also i ponder what is the factor that catalyzes or leads to self-awareness, what did it for us, what could do it in the digital domain?


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 915
Loc: Chicago, Illinois U.S.A.
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Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: mr crisper]
    #943933 - 10/08/02 09:28 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Your imagination is very active. :grin:  : in some ways, we exist in an environment similar to that of pc game characters............the substance of their bodies is the same substance that makes ours. our world is no more real than theirs, just a lot of enegy vibrating. Really?  Isn't that a stretch?  I like the ideas your post suggests though.  The implied question of godhood is interesting.  We are pathetic gods if so.  :smirk:  We are a lot like the gods who were so cruel to us for so long (in some western religions at least).  :crazy: 


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OfflineGrav
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: frogsheath]
    #944348 - 10/09/02 02:23 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

well by your logic,  then a lump of hot steamy shit is just as much similar to our existence as a computer game is.  It's all just vibrations, isnt it?  :tongue:





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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: as above, so below. so below... [Re: Grav]
    #944658 - 10/09/02 07:21 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

exactly.
todays shit becomes soil becomes plant, gets eaten, becomes part of ourselves....
it's only separated by time.
does that thought make you feel really good?


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