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OfflineTedwilto
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: deCypher]
    #9415255 - 12/11/08 08:09 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Tedwilto said:
My god. You sir are dense.




Dense for trying to argue a position counter to my own beliefs?

It's called playing Devil's Advocate, and questioning one's own principles (such as the right of every person to alter their own consciousness, or that all drugs should be legalized) is tantamount to developing a healthy ideology.

I find it funny how so many people get riled up on here, calling me an idiot, dense, or a weasel in one instance.  :lol:  Have you ever stopped to think about the other side of the issue, or why society as a whole does not want drugs to be legalized?

Legalizing drugs with restrictions is probably the healthiest way to go about things, but there are still fundamental flaws with advocated unlicensed, unregulated, un-age limited access to all drugs regardless of addictiveness, which was the whole point of the OP.




Im calling you dense because you are arguing the most extremes of these situations where people are getting 8 balls of coke for free with their lunch. what the hell is that? The shit you argue is highly unrealistic and really hypothetical. Try to stay in the realms of reality if your gonna play devils advocate.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: Tedwilto]
    #9415270 - 12/11/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

If there are truly no legal limits on drugs, then getting eight balls of coke as an appetizer is no more unrealistic than being served glasses of wine.

It all depends upon how tolerant a society is.  Smoking opium with a business client or recreationally after dinner was considered common in China before its prohibition in 1729.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: deCypher]
    #9415299 - 12/11/08 08:18 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If there are truly no legal limits on drugs, then getting eight balls of coke as an appetizer is no more unrealistic than being served glasses of wine.




except that coke is an appetite suppressant, pot would be more likely, and im down!


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: deCypher]
    #9415301 - 12/11/08 08:18 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I think the unknown factor is how much "harm" complete legalization and availability would cause. 

Yes, use would increase, but we could shift massive amounts of resources into treatment, and helping people.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: badchad]
    #9415322 - 12/11/08 11:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
I think the unknown factor is how much "harm" complete legalization and availability would cause. 

Yes, use would increase, but we could shift massive amounts of resource.  s into treatment, and helping people.




Right.  I'm just tired of people treating legalization as a panacea; curing all societal ills and bringing nothing but good into the world.

The truth is that the consequences of legalizing drug use are completely unknown, and it's always wise to consider every possibility.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: deCypher]
    #9415503 - 12/11/08 11:33 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
How hard is finding the dealer, though, in comparison to being able to purchase a legal drug such as Tylenol at your local Walgreens?




I'm not suggesting that drugs should be legal with no age restrictions like tylenol is, and i don't think many people would think this is a good idea. We are talking about them being legal but with age restrictions like alcohol.

Edited by DimensionX (12/11/08 11:34 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: DimensionX]
    #9415510 - 12/11/08 11:34 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

And in that case I agree with you.  The sole point of the OP was to strike up an argument against wholly unrestricted drug legalization.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: deCypher]
    #9415641 - 12/11/08 11:52 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Do you want to be paying taxes to support the thousands of people in hospitals due to these drugs?




Sure beats paying taxes to keep millions of people in prison for using drugs.

Quote:

Making things legal removes the deterrent of jail-time and makes it more likely for non ordinarily-drug using people to try it out of curiosity.




When is the last time you didn't use a drug because you were worried about jail time?

Throwing people in jail for using drugs makes the kids think its really cool.  If it makes you feel so good its worth risking prison for, it must be pretty awesome, right?

Quote:

The truth is that the consequences of legalizing drug use are completely unknown, and it's always wise to consider every possibility.




Is it really unknown?  All drugs were legal for the first 150 years of this country.  Drug prohibition is a relatively recent phenomenon. 

In the late 1800's heroin and cocaine were available at any drug store.  There were users and addicts, yes, however the harm these substances caused was minimal. 

Contrast that with the prisons we have today, widespread drug related violence, the dirty needles, and high drug prices that cause addicts to have to steal because a regular job won't pay the artificially inflated prices.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: deCypher]
    #9415676 - 12/11/08 11:58 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Heavy drinking was reported by 5.6 percent of the population aged 12 and older, or 12.6 million people. These 2000 estimates were nearly identical to the 1999 estimates.

About 9.7 million persons aged 12 to 20 reported drinking alcohol in the month prior to the survey interview in 2000 (27.5 percent of this age group). An estimated 6.6 million (18.7 percent) were binge drinkers and 2.1 million (6.0 percent) were heavy drinkers. All of these 2000 rates were similar to rates observed in 1999.




20% of people aged 12 to 20 are binge drinkers, and 6% heavy drinkers.  These are staggering statistics, especially when you take into account that this is when alcohol is illegal prior to being 21.




LOLOLOLOL You obviously have no concept of laws. It's perfectly legal for people under the age 21 to drink, at least in California, so long as it is on private property.


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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: learningtofly]
    #9415715 - 12/12/08 12:06 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
LOLOLOLOL You obviously have no concept of laws. It's perfectly legal for people under the age 21 to drink, at least in California, so long as it is on private property.




Could you cite that law please? I lived in Cali most of my life and never heard that.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: Crasher]
    #9415738 - 12/12/08 12:10 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LOLOLOLOL You obviously have no concept of laws. It's perfectly legal for people under the age 21 to drink, at least in California, so long as it is on private property.




I was about to reply and tell you that you must be wrong, but I checked the law and you are indeed correct!

http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/appndxa/buspro/bpc25662.htm

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: learningtofly]
    #9415746 - 12/12/08 12:12 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
LOLOLOLOL You obviously have no concept of laws. It's perfectly legal for people under the age 21 to drink, at least in California, so long as it is on private property.




lolwut

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=bpc&group=25001-26000&file=25657-25667

Quote:

Any person under the age of 21 years who purchases any
alcoholic beverage, or any person under the age of 21 years who
consumes any alcoholic beverage in any on-sale premises, is guilty of
a misdemeanor.




Consumption by an underage person is de facto illegal, unless a parent or over twenty-one year old guardian permits it.  Plus I would be highly surprised if MADD let a single state be exempt from their stringent advocacy of teetotallerianism... if I'm incorrect please let me know.

Also, even if the guardian permits it:

Quote:

25658.2.  (a) A parent or legal guardian who knowingly permits his
or her child, or a person in the company of the child, or both, who
are under the age of 18 years, to consume an alcoholic beverage or
use a controlled substance at the home of the parent or legal
guardian is guilty of misdemeanor if all of the following occur:
  (1) As the result of the consumption of an alcoholic beverage or
use of a controlled substance at the home of the parent or legal
guardian, the child or other underage person has a blood-alcohol
concentration of 0.05 percent or greater, as measured by a chemical
test, or is under the influence of a controlled substance.




--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Edited by deCypher (12/12/08 12:21 AM)

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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: deCypher]
    #9416002 - 12/12/08 01:10 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Cypher, I love ya, but what the fuck is your point here????

You admit:
Quote:

The whole scenario changes if you throw in regulation into the mix, sure.  I'm only arguing against unlicensed legalization.




When has anyone EVER advocated legalization without ANY regulation?  Even the most adament supporters of legalization acknowledge that age limits need to be set on when these drugs become available to the citizen.

Your presented scenario is patently rediculous. Who would advocate that 6 year old children should be able to purchase cocaine over the counter?

Furthermore, your entire argument seems to be based on the fact that adolescent children are irresponsible fuckheads and making drugs completely available to them is a bad idea. I don't think anyone will take much issue with that. But you seem to take this to mean that adults capable of making informed decisions shouldn't be allowed to make the decision to use drugs.  I repeat, everyone I know who favors legalization also favors regulation with age limits.

There are two main points you fail to address:

1.) The ability of people to make informed decisions hinges on them being properly informed. Under the current paradigm, the vast majority of the population is completely misinformed. Children are told how all drugs are bad... when they find out that some drugs (like marijuana) really aren't so bad, they question their source of information and are apt to take more dangerous drugs because they feel they've been lied to about the dangers. Proper drug education accompanying legalization could easily allow people to make informed decisions.

2.) Do the negative consequences of legalization outweigh the negative consequences of prohibition? That's a point you conspicuously fail to address. The negative consequences of prohibition are of epic proportion... the negative consequences you believe will result from legalization seem like a pittance in comparison.



But mainly, I'm wondering what the point of this thread is? Did you just want to get people riled up?

All you've done is throw up a straw-man argument and run with it. Of course there are problems with allowing minors free access to any drugs and undermining the ability of parents to look out for their childrens' welfare.  But that's a completely different argument than any that I've seen put forth by proponents of legalization.

The whole thread seems to have no point. It's premise is flawed. No one believes that a 6-year-old should be able to buy cocaine at the local pharmacy, yet this is essentially the premise of your argument.

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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9416011 - 12/12/08 01:13 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

What Would Jesus Do?


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Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: Crasher]
    #9416013 - 12/12/08 01:13 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)


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InvisibleIrishdrunk
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. [Re: deCypher]
    #9416017 - 12/12/08 01:14 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Imagine, if you will, a nation that has just legalized all drugs.  No age limits on what you can buy, no restrictions on which chemicals are legal and which aren't, no requirement for prescription before purchase.  Marijuana is sold by the bales at farmer's markets, vicodin and oxycodone are found in bubblegum machines, and methamphetamine is available at your local Circle-K.  A free eight-ball of cocaine comes with the appetizer at a restaurant dinner, and a sprinkling of MDMA can be left for the tip at your discretion.  Billboards for the latest and greatest ayahuasca brews are planted throughout the city, while vending machines sell sterilized needles and dimebags of heroin to anyone who has twenty dollars.

Now, at first glance this might seem like a druggie's paradise come to life; a pharmacological utopia of consciousness-altering euphoria.  Stoners would celebrate with day-long blaze fests in the middle of the streets.  Junkies would rush to the stores and purchase as many opiates as their bank accounts would afford.  Shroomerites would gleefully candy-flip their psychedelic combos in broad daylight at the parks; laughing and rolling around surrounded by nature as policemen stand helplessly by to prevent it.  Dealers and commercial growers would curse and rail their fate as the heavy engine of legitimate business enterprises rolls in to take their place.  Organized crime would reshift its money-making strategy towards illegal weaponry and the increasingly few prohibited items in this modern society, while governmental officials would watch their money-bags grow fatter due to the hordes of money coming in from these taxable products.

This sounds like bliss, and from my personal perspective it would be.  I mean, seriously--no longer having to deal with the sketchy black market; no longer having to deal with ten year prison sentences if getting caught with a particular chemical; no longer having to worry about social stigma for being involved with illegal activities; no longer worrying about dealers jacking up their prices unfairly without a Better Business Bureau to complain to; the list grows endless.  Nonetheless, I am thoroughly convinced that such a situation would invariably lead to negative and horrible results for society as a whole.

In the first place, imagine yourself as a parent.  You've raised your children up until age eight, let's say, and you love them with the whole of your heart.  You would never want them to be hurt, or make any kind of stupid decision that would negatively impact their life.  Would you still want your eight-year old able to purchase and shoot up methamphetamine?  Would you want your kids blazing it up during kindergarten or 6th grade; paying no attention to class in favor of the delicious alternative of getting high?  Or how about getting addicted to heroin?  Until your children move out, they are under your responsibility and your care--as a parent, do you want your child suffering neurotoxic brain damage after combining cocaine and MDMA?  Or how about selling all his books and stuffed animals to afford another baggie of H?  Unless you're fine with all of this, it is clear that there have to be some sort of age-restrictions on the buying of drugs.  Just like you have to be 18 years of age in most states to purchase a gun, so too is it likely most parents will favor making it 18 and up to purchase an addictive drug.

But even then, imagine an newly-turned 18 year old, flushed with the anticipation of doing his first line of snow white.  Curiosity is the downfall of most addicts, and given the opportunity to buy something legally, it is more than probable that a person will try it.  This is the reason why prescription pharmaceuticals, alcohol, caffeine, and cigarettes are so widely abused across the nation in comparison with arguably more addictive drugs such as heroin or cocaine.  Availability is of far more importance than actual addictiveness; sugar has been argued to be as equally as addictive as heroin and yet we don't see equal numbers of people chasing the dragon and drinking soda.  In a society with a stigma against drug-use, and the increased difficulty of obtaining black-market substances when compared to buying things at a convenience store, drug use will be significantly lower than if it is legalized.

Legalization will not only staggeringly increase the number of junkies and people hopelessly hooked on boosting their dopamine-reinforced pathways (legalizing things does not make people's decisions to try them any smarter or more responsible), but it will significantly decrease the economic and academic productivity of the nation.  Why not get high during a work break?  Why not prefer to insufflate some chemical that will remove anxiety and yield blissful pleasure as opposed to studying a bit harder on an exam?  Why not choose to live one's life in a blazeful haze of smoke rather than join the Type-A, competitive atmosphere of law school?  Why not pursue the endless depths of the rabbit hole rather than tinker around with mathematical patterns or write flowing, eloquent essays?  A nation's workforce that has unlimited and legal access to all kinds of recreational drugs will be significantly less productive than a nation that does not, and making the counter-argument that people who choose to do drugs will do them anyway fails when you consider human curiosity and the fact that people will generally spend their money on anything legal.

Personally, I'm all for legalizing drugs.  I don't want to pay exorbitant prices for dirty ecstasy, and I don't want to face years of prison time.  But as a society, I am firmly against opening the flood-gates to this tidal wave of apathy, lack of academic and economic motivation, and rampant increase in the downward spiral of addiction.




You gave into that crap?  Did you vote Republican?


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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9416029 - 12/12/08 01:17 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

:ilold:

Silly Messiah, junk is for people.


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Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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InvisibleAnarleaf
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: deCypher]
    #9417253 - 12/12/08 09:53 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting subject, I would have to disagree however. I think you're expecting the worst of humanity, we don't all want to stay in a euphoric mind state or even try all the drugs available.

It is true that if it is easier to obtain, curious young kids are probably going to try it. Much like triple C's and Tylenol people are going to find an easy way to get high. However there seems to be a vast majority that are indifferent and would not go out looking for drugs. Even people who are curious would either be afraid to try them, or would not want to due to indifference.

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Offlined33p
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9417380 - 12/12/08 10:28 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Entropymancer said:
When has anyone EVER advocated legalization without ANY regulation?  Even the most adament supporters of legalization acknowledge that age limits need to be set on when these drugs become available to the citizen.

Your presented scenario is patently rediculous. Who would advocate that 6 year old children should be able to purchase cocaine over the counter?




I would.

Government regulation of commerce is wrong. However, I seriously doubt any private store would sell cocaine to 6 year olds so that last point is irrelevant.


Cypher's argument was completely worthless. Kids already huff glue, gas, etc and do the worst kinds of drugs.  The first thing to get me interested drugs, especially hard drugs, was DARE. Prohibition accomplishes nothing beneficial to society. Which is still irrelevant imo because the preservation and advancement of liberty is more important and just.

Fuck anyone's support of the state's coercive interventionism.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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OfflineMayorMcCheese
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Re: Why drug legalization is fundamentally flawed. (anyone420, this one's for you) [Re: d33p]
    #9417569 - 12/12/08 11:19 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I agree

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