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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat
    #9401750 - 12/09/08 08:38 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

One of the most amazing stories I've ever read.  This guy, Blagojevich, has been under investigation for corruption for some time.  He *knows* the USDA, Fitzgerald, is out to get him.  And yet he is arrested today, not even indicted, just arrested and led in hand-cuffs from his home for trying to sell Barack Obama's vacant Senate seat to the highest bidder.  Can you imagine that?  They have transcripts of conversations he had setting up the whole thing.

The indictment also states that he had the nerve to tell Sam Zell, the owner of the Chicago Tribune's parent company that unless he fired members of his editorial board critical of Blago, the state would never get any public money to renovate Wrigley Field.  Said it to his face!  Sam Zell is a billionaire and owns one of the biggest media companies in the world!  Did he think he wouldn't say anything!?

That now makes two consecutive Illinois governors arrested for corruption during their terms.  But this takes the cake.  Selling a Senate seat?!

Is this a great state or what?

Now, onto the juicy details.  Read the excerpt from the complaint after the main story.  It's quite priceless.

Quote:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-blagojevich-maindec09,0,7734677.story

Gov. Rod Blagojevich and his chief of staff, John Harris, were arrested Tuesday for what U.S. Atty. Patrick Fitzgerald called a "political corruption crime spree" that included attempts to sell the U.S. Senate seat vacated by President-elect Barack Obama.

Blagojevich and Harris were named in a federal criminal complaint that alleged a wide-ranging criminal conspiracy aimed at providing financial benefits to the governor, his political fund and to his wife, First Lady Patricia Blagojevich.

Blagojevich was taken into federal custody by FBI agents at his North Side home Tuesday morning—one day shy of his 52nd birthday.

The arrests dealt a tumultuous blow to Illinois government, at once raising questions about the leadership of the state and the fate of the open Senate seat—which the governor alone has the power to fill under the state law.

The allegations against Blagojevich provide a sharp contrast to a Democratic governor who campaigned for office promising reforms in the wake of disgraced, scandal-tainted Republican chief executive George Ryan. The complaint against Blagojevich comes little more than two years after Ryan was sentenced to 61/2 years in prison on federal corruption charges.

Robert Grant, special agent in charge of the FBI's Chicago office, characterized Illinois' place in the pantheon of political corruption.

"If it isn't the most corrupt state in the United States, it's certainly one hell of a competitor," Grant said. And Fitzgerald, whose office also prosecuted Blagojevich's predecessor, said Blagojevich's "conduct would make Lincoln roll over in his grave."

Lt. Gov. Pat Quinn called on Blagojevich to step aside, at least temporarily, or resign because the governor is "seriously impeded from carrying out his oath of office."

"I think he knows what he needs to do for the people," said Quinn, a Democrat.

Despite facing myriad federal investigations throughout his five-year tenure, Blagojevich has maintained he committed no wrongdoing. On Monday, Blagojevich said any discussions he has had were "always lawful."

The stunning, early morning arrest followed a series of Tribune stories revealing federal investigators had compiled secret recordings of the governor with the cooperation of a longtime confidant. In recent days, the focus of federal investigators expanded beyond a probe of allegations of wrongdoing involving state jobs, contracts and appointments in exchange for campaign dollars to the possibility that the Senate succession process had become tainted by pay-to-play politics.

Blagojevich and Harris were arrested simultaneously at their homes about 6:15 a.m., according to the FBI. They were transported to FBI headquarters in Chicago. Blagojevich appeared before U.S. Magistrate Judge Nan Nolan early in the afternoon and heard the charges read against him before being released on his own recognizance.

Spurring federal investigators to act was Blagojevich's pending appointment of a Senate successor to Obama, whose resignation took effect Nov. 16. Blagojevich had said he expected to name a new senator around the end of the year.

Prosecutors said they had numerous recorded conversations of Blagojevich discussing the merits of potential candidates, including their abilities to benefit the people of Illinois as well as the financial and political benefits he and his wife could receive.

Prosecutors said their recordings revealed Blagojevich expressed feeling "stuck" as a sitting governor and he spent a large amount of time weighing whether he should appoint himself to the vacancy—possibly to avoid impeachment and help remake his image for a potential 2016 run for the presidency. A recent Tribune poll found Blagojevich with a record low 13 percent job approval rating.

Under state law, the governor has the sole unfettered discretion to name Obama's appointment. Despite his arrest, he continues to have the naming authority and some lawmakers discussed looking for ways to wrest it from him.

Prosecutors alleged Blagojevich sought appointment as secretary of Health and Human Services or wanted an ambassadorship in the new Obama administration, or to be placed in a lucrative union-affiliated job in exchange for appointing Valerie Jarrett, a close friend and adviser to the president-elect to the Senate seat. Jarrett eventually took herself out of the running and Fitzgerald said "we make no allegation" that Obama was aware of Blagojevich's attempt to leverage the appointment.

Fitzgerald quoted a Blagojevich conversation in which the governor said the Senate seat is "a bleeping valuable thing. You just don't give it away. ... I've got this thing, and it's bleeping golden."

Blagojevich also was alleged to be using a favors list, made up largely of individuals and firms that have state contracts or received taxpayer benefits, from which to conduct a $2.5 million fundraising drive before year's end when a new tougher law on campaign donations, prompted by the governor's voracious fundraising, would take effect.

Even Blagojevich's recently announced $1.8 billion plan for new interchanges and "green lanes" on the Illinois Tollway was subject to corruption, prosecutors alleged. The criminal complaint alleges Blagojevich expected an unnamed highway concrete contractor to raise a half-million dollars for his campaign fund in exchange for state money for the tollway project. "If they don't perform, [expletive] 'em," Blagojevich said, according to the complaint.

Blagojevich and Harris also allegedly conspired to demand the firing of Chicago Tribune editorial board members responsible for editorials critical of Blagojevich in exchange for state help with the sale of Wrigley Field, the Chicago Cubs baseball stadium owned by Tribune Co.




Quote:

From the comnplaint...

Rod Blagojevich said that the consultants (Advisor B and another consultant are believed to be on the call at that time) are telling him that he has to "suck it up" for two years and do nothing and give this "motherf***er [the President-elect] his senator. F*** him. For nothing? F*** him." Rod Blagojevich states that he will put "[Senate Candidate 4]" in the Senate "before I just give F***ing [Senate Candidate 1] a F***ing Senate seat and I don't get anything." (Senate Candidate 4 is a Deputy Governor of the State of Illinois). Rod Blagojevich stated that he needs to find a way to take the "financial stress" off of his family and that his wife is as qualified or more qualified than another specifically named individual to sit on corporate boards. According to Rod Blagojevich, "the immediate challenge [is] how do we take some of the financial pressure off of our family." Later in the phone call, Rod Blagojevich stated that absent getting something back, Rod Blagojevich will not pick Senate Candidate 1.

Harris re-stated Rod Blagojevich's thoughts that they should ask the President-elect for something for Rod Blagojevich's financial security as well as maintain his political viability. Harris said they could work out a three-way deal with SEIU and the President- elect where SEIU could help the President-elect with Rod Blagojevich's appointment of Senate Candidate 1 to the vacant Senate seat, Rod Blagojevich would obtain a position as the National Director of the Change to Win campaign, and SEIU would get something favorable from the President-elect in the future.




--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9401804 - 12/09/08 08:51 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

How can we expect government to work, when the very system requires you to be a politician?


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InvisibleAroundtheSon
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9401807 - 12/09/08 08:52 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

wonder how much it cost to be president? :shrug:

and who's selling it:tinfoil:


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Invisiblenw_shroomy
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: AroundtheSon]
    #9401948 - 12/09/08 09:15 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

he is Innocent..:shrug:


--------------------
Spawn Ratio Calculator
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: AroundtheSon]
    #9402017 - 12/09/08 09:30 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

AroundtheSon said:
wonder how much it cost to be president? :shrug:




about 78million, your soul and your hole


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9402077 - 12/09/08 09:44 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

This story doesn't surprise me.


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OfflineJT
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Stein]
    #9402555 - 12/09/08 10:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)



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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: JT]
    #9402654 - 12/09/08 11:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

justin_thyme said:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/12/questions-arise.html

things do not look good for obama.





And he’s not even president yet......


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9402748 - 12/09/08 11:23 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Does this mean Bank of America is off the hook in Illinois now? :lol:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9404225 - 12/10/08 05:33 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Jeremiah Wright, Bill Ayers, Rezko, and now Blagojevich... nope, Obama didn't know any of them... Yes we can!

The next four years might actually be a bit more fun than I was expecting if this keeps up.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9404322 - 12/10/08 07:22 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

What?

They didn't even like each other.

Chicago politics and Springfield politics are two completely different animals.

Everything south of Chicago is more or less a different country.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineJT
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9404331 - 12/10/08 07:28 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

he knew all of them, no one's denying that. this governor is the first significant threat to obama's credibility though.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: JT]
    #9404345 - 12/10/08 07:40 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I don't see how, or why. Obama's not the one trying to sell a senate seat.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zouden]
    #9404360 - 12/10/08 07:50 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

most likely not. at this point i think obama would have to be pretty stupid to risk his presidency just to sell his senate seat. however, the corruption investigation was originally intended to examine blagojevich's illegal hiring procedures. this was just a scheme the FBI happened to uncover while wiretapping him. obama and blago go all the way back to 2002, and have each contributed on many occassions to the other's campaign. obama endorsed blago as recently as 2006 for his governor position, and blago played a huge part in obama's rise to the senate.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: JT]
    #9404379 - 12/10/08 07:58 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, I just read that in the news. But "as recently as 2006" isn't really that recent, since there's no evidence that the corruption goes back before then. At least, I haven't heard of any.

I think Obama's opponents would like to think this is a major blow to his credibility, but they're going to need to prove that Obama was aware of Blagojevich's corruption.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zouden]
    #9404385 - 12/10/08 08:01 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

There is no connection, people who have no idea what they're talking about will draw one when they see "Illinois"

Listen, EVERYONE in the entire state knew Blago was going down a long time ago.  Fitzgerald has said as much numerous times. To think Obama or anyone else would have close dealings with him is ludicrous.  Call Obama what you will, but he's no moron.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9404432 - 12/10/08 08:26 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

> Call Obama what you will, but he's no moron.

What do you call a person that lacks character judgment and continues to associate with people that are detrimental to their career?

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results."  -Albert Einstein


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9404450 - 12/10/08 08:36 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

How was associating with Blagojevich in 2006 detrimental to his career?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zouden]
    #9404572 - 12/10/08 09:28 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

> How was associating with Blagojevich in 2006 detrimental to his career?

Are we not talking about it now?  If we weren't, then you would have a valid point.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9404923 - 12/10/08 11:36 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Are we not talking about it now?  If we weren't, then you would have a valid point.



Ah yes, the conservatives tried to warn us...



--------------------
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9404955 - 12/10/08 11:48 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
How can we expect government to work, when the very system requires you to be a politician?




You nailed it. And there's more. You have to be a politician because all people are politicians. And all, to one extent or another, corrupt.

There is real truth to the quote "We get the government we deserve". Why? Because it reflects who we are.

Over in this forum especially most everyone is so busy pointing the finger at the other side they fail every time to look at their own motives and actions.


I'm no better. I'm just sayin.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9404995 - 12/10/08 11:56 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

sell out america and get yourself a handhob

bond for Blagojevich was a mere $4500
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5315453.ece


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9405025 - 12/10/08 12:01 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

That's fucking great. So a man commits an (IMO) act of treason against us all and his bail is set at a few dollars.

Some other schmuck is accused of terrorism on weak evidence and stuck in a jail without any chance of bail for years.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Icelander]
    #9405891 - 12/10/08 02:12 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

That's fucking great. So a man commits an (IMO) act of treason against us all and his bail is set at a few dollars.

Some other schmuck is accused of terrorism on weak evidence and stuck in a jail without any chance of bail for years.




Unclear on the concept of bail, I see.






Phred


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Phred]
    #9406154 - 12/10/08 02:56 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Most likely but you get the point.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Icelander]
    #9406294 - 12/10/08 03:17 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I will enlighten you.  The purpose of bail is to ensure that the suspect will appear for trial.  That's all.  Blago is not a flight risk.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9406682 - 12/10/08 04:16 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> How was associating with Blagojevich in 2006 detrimental to his career?

Are we not talking about it now?  If we weren't, then you would have a valid point.




Somewhat circular logic - the fact that people are speculating about it potentially damaging Obama's career can hardly be taken as evidence that it is damaging. Obama has suffered much worse.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9407074 - 12/10/08 05:14 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I will enlighten you.  The purpose of bail is to ensure that the suspect will appear for trial.  That's all.  Blago is not a flight risk.




I think I know why he isn't a flight risk. Nothing much is going to happen to him. He's a fat cat and fat cats don't pay. :wink:

Were he facing water boarding and rotting without charges for years maybe he might just consider hightailing it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zouden]
    #9407188 - 12/10/08 05:30 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

> Somewhat circular logic - the fact that people are speculating about it potentially damaging Obama's career can hardly be taken as evidence that it is damaging.

Not at all circular.  Perhaps you place a stronger meaning on the word 'damage' than I do.  Is this something that is going to destroy Obama?  Absolutely not.  Is this something that helps to further erode Obama's credibility?  Certainly.  Even if Obama had never met the guy, it is still a bit damaging to his image.  The media has started talking about the corrupt political machine in Chicago, the place that Obama cut his political teeth.  Guilt by association isn't fair, but it is a fact of life.  Personally, I think Obama is a lier, and his lies are going to start biting him in the ass.  He lied about his preacher.  He lied about his association with Ayres.  He lied about his ties to socialism.  Now he lies about having had no contact with the Illinois Governor regarding his empty Senate seat (in my opinion).


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9407283 - 12/10/08 05:46 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

He should be executed IMO on national television.

Fuckin asshole.


--------------------
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9407297 - 12/10/08 05:48 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

But without hard evidence, this event will fade from memory without any lasting damage. The people who are crowing the most about the damage to Obama's reputation are those who hope that it will damage him. I doubt the rest of the populace really cares that much.


--------------------
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zouden]
    #9407599 - 12/10/08 06:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Blagojevich's corruption didn't get anyone killed, as far as I know, so currently he is at least better than the previous Governor. He fixed I-88/290 too, so I really can't be that mad at him.

Chicago and Springfield do not get along at all, so I would not be surprised if someone from Obama's office was responsible for ratting him out.


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #9407637 - 12/10/08 06:38 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Chicago and Springfield do not get along at all, so I would not be surprised if someone from Obama's office was responsible for ratting him out.




Precisely.

The Lieutenant Gov is much more friendly with Obama, and him (The LG) and Blago hate each other.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zouden]
    #9409295 - 12/10/08 10:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
The people who are crowing the most about the damage to Obama's reputation are those who hope that it will damage him. I doubt the rest of the populace really cares that much.



Exactly.

Also, if Obama is shown to associate with a few stellar people, should we automatically conclude that Obama must be a stellar person himself?  This seems to me like a silly argument.


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: JT]
    #9409730 - 12/11/08 12:22 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

justin_thyme said:
he knew all of them, no one's denying that. this governor is the first significant threat to obama's credibility though.





No that would be him voting against his stated positions in the senate on large issues, changing his positions when running for president while not being honest about the changes, and being against gay marriage while claiming he's for equality (supernovasky is going to get pissy and call me a liar again I'm sure)

By the way, I don't think this a big deal for obama.  I don't like that his aid was either lieing or making shit up to the news institutions that I relly upon to get inromation about the people I support, but that's small potatoes. 

And i don't really care about who obama associates with in the examples cited.  His relationsihp with ayers seems a nonissue due to the lack of ayers causing trouble while obama is associated with him, weakly, and his relationship with wright seems more a shrewd political move and personal friendship than anything.  So long as obama doesn't adopt either's positions its not a problem.  His wife is probably the biggest liability but I think she's just not savy enough to shut her dumb mouth when it hurst her husband and she seems to do a better job of that as time goes on.


Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

That's fucking great. So a man commits an (IMO) act of treason against us all and his bail is set at a few dollars.

Some other schmuck is accused of terrorism on weak evidence and stuck in a jail without any chance of bail for years.




Unclear on the concept of bail, I see.






Phred





yeah, but he does have a point.  The bail in this country is bullshit and a half.  You steal five memory cards and get bail of sixty thousand ten percent.  You sell drugs to an adult (personal use quantities) you get hundred thousand dollars cash bail.  You beat someone up and get a few hundred bucks.  You are a rich guy and defraud the united states and state of Illinois and you get a bail that wouldn't stop anyone from running.


I don't think the amount of bail should have no relationship to the seriousness of the charges.  Should a speeder be summarily arrested for a nonjailable (sentencing wise) offense just because he's a flight risk and is currently intending to leave the state when he's stopped?  No.  Neither should a drug possesor or dealer be given more than a governor.

Bail needs to be drastically lowered in almost all areas.


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: johnm214]
    #9410268 - 12/11/08 02:03 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

blagovich is a rod...


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #9410944 - 12/11/08 05:28 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

> if Obama is shown to associate with a few stellar people, should we automatically conclude that Obama must be a stellar person himself?

No, we think he is doing his job.  When you expect somebody to associate with stellar people, and they do, then it is nothing special.  When you expect somebody to associate with stellar people, and instead they associate with racists, terrorists, and extortionists, then you begin to think there might be a problem.


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9410963 - 12/11/08 05:38 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

It could have been worse.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zouden]
    #9411010 - 12/11/08 06:02 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

> It could have been worse.

Very much so... and it still may get worse.  Time will tell.


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: johnm214]
    #9411490 - 12/11/08 10:38 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You still don't get it.  The only purpose of bail is to ensure that the indictee will appear for his trial.  That's it.  Blago is not a flight risk.  He should have no bail.  Then he should go on trial, be convicted and put in jail for 25 years.  He can't run and he can't hide, there is no reason for a high bail.  I can't believe you automatically want to throw him in jail before he gets a trial.

Meanwhile, assorted anonymous punks skip bail and fail to appear all the time.  They disappear into the woodwork and spend years on the lam.  Once again, this is not something Blago can do.  I assume he had to surrender his passport.  There is no place he can hide.


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9411613 - 12/11/08 11:18 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I think 25 to life would be appropriate for someone in his position of trust to be convicted of this type of crime. (that would surely stop some of this shit in its tracks) That is of course if you don't believe in the death penalty like I do.:hellfire: He's already cost us enough.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Icelander]
    #9411794 - 12/11/08 11:57 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

> for someone in his position of trust

I'm a proponent of x3 the normal penalty when somebody in a position of public trust violates the public's trust.  I don't know what the normal sentencing guidelines are for his crime(s), but I'm all for x3 whatever they recommend.


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zouden]
    #9411878 - 12/11/08 12:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
It could have been worse.






who says it's not worse



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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9411893 - 12/11/08 12:16 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
I'm a proponent of x3 the normal penalty when somebody in a position of public trust violates the public's trust.




I still believe you're going too easy on them, if it's not
cruel and unusual then it's not punishment


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9411896 - 12/11/08 12:17 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

"I had no contact with the governor or his office and so we were not, I was not aware of what was happening." - Obama

Obama last tuesday:

Apologists show up to say that shaking someone's hand and talking with them does not mean contact in 3...2...1...


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: d33p]
    #9412480 - 12/11/08 02:22 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

All politicians shake hands as far as I know. That's like saying anyone who shook Bush's hand is complicit in all the wrongdoings he may have done.:crazy2:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Icelander]
    #9412554 - 12/11/08 02:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

> All politicians shake hands as far as I know.

Do all politicians endorse one another as well?


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9412568 - 12/11/08 02:40 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You still don't get it.  The only purpose of bail is to ensure that the indictee will appear for his trial.  That's it.  Blago is not a flight risk.  He should have no bail.  Then he should go on trial, be convicted and put in jail for 25 years.  He can't run and he can't hide, there is no reason for a high bail.  I can't believe you automatically want to throw him in jail before he gets a trial.

Meanwhile, assorted anonymous punks skip bail and fail to appear all the time.  They disappear into the woodwork and spend years on the lam.  Once again, this is not something Blago can do.  I assume he had to surrender his passport.  There is no place he can hide.




Where did it appear that I didn't understand the reason for the monetary commitment?  Nevertheless, this isn't the only consideration- the safety of the community is an additional consideration.  The money is to ensure the person doesn't violate the conditions of the release- whether they be taking off or commiting further crimes.


I'm saying that flight risk should not be the end of the road, the seriousness of hte offense should be considered both as a liklihood of flight and as a fairness of the release conditions.


Again, are you saying hte person who did 66 in a 65 and couldn't be sentenced to jail should be arrested and made to pay a high bond or reamin in jail because he admitted he was planning to leave the state and was doing so when stopped?  No, because other factors speak as to the inappropriatness of such- danger to the community and seriousness of the offense.

Should the trespasser likewise be given a high bond who might have a max jail time of ten days?  Nope


In the US District Courts, the protection of the community is a statutory consideration as to bond amount.


As for your "I can't believe" statement, I can't believe you believe I think his bond is inappropriate when I didn't say that.  I can't believe you think I want him in jail.  I said his bond was disproportionate, and I believe I specifically said bond needs to be lowered almost across the board.


How you decided I think he should be jailed pretrial when the constitution gives us a right to reasonable bond I don't understand.


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9412615 - 12/11/08 02:54 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Obama and Emmanuel ran Blago's campaign in 2002 and Barry the Pimp heartily endorsed him in 2006 even though the state inspector general said he was a retard with neither respect nor understanding of the law.
http://www.chicagomag.com/core/pagetools.php?pageid=7444&url=%2FChicago-Magazine%2FFebruary-2008%2FMr-Un-Popularity%2F&mode=print
Quote:

The governor's former inspector general said in a report that Blagojevich's hiring practices showed "not merely ignorance of the law, but complete and utter contempt for the law."




--------------------


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9412633 - 12/11/08 02:59 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> All politicians shake hands as far as I know.

Do all politicians endorse one another as well?




Well maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. Obama might have been well aware of what a sleaze bag he was. Fortunately I didn't vote for either of them.

Then of course Obama might have endorsed him without really knowing or believing he was a total crook. I mean really it must be hard to tell one from the other in the political arena. Some are completely stupid and crooked and the rest are just slightly crooked and stupid.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Icelander]
    #9412661 - 12/11/08 03:05 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Then of course Obama might have endorsed him without really knowing or believing he was a total crook.




like the way he spent 20 years at a church filled with hatred
and bigotry but he never heard that message


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9412669 - 12/11/08 03:06 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> All politicians shake hands as far as I know.

Do all politicians endorse one another as well?




Blagojevich's wife being investigated for real-estate dealings


"In 2005, a published report said she received nearly $50,000 from a real-estate deal three years earlier involving Antoin "Tony" Rezko. In June, Rezko was convicted of using clout with the Blagojevich administration to help launch a multimillion-dollar kickback scheme.


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2008494000_govwife11.html

This would not be the same Rezko the Obama's bought there "discounted" McMansion from would it????

I wonder if Blago's wife was involved in that shady Obama deal?


--------------------
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9412670 - 12/11/08 03:07 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Right. I thought all churches were like that.:shrug:

I mean it's not like the republicans are anti religious. :tongue:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9412678 - 12/11/08 03:08 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Then of course Obama might have endorsed him without really knowing or believing he was a total crook.




like the way he spent 20 years at a church filled with hatred
and bigotry but he never heard that message





If Obama is so smart why is it he never seems to know whats going on around him?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Icelander]
    #9412691 - 12/11/08 03:10 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Right. I thought all churches were like that.:shrug:

I mean it's not like the republicans are anti religious. :tongue:




You would probably be hard pressed to find a Republican politician who goes to a church that says kill all the niggers.  A Democrat (Robert Byrd), maybe, but not a Republican.


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9412698 - 12/11/08 03:12 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, that was pretty funny. On the other hand you might find a lot of them who would tell  you it's there Gods right to forbid women to have choice in what they do with their own bodies.:shrug: Don't get me started.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Icelander]
    #9412706 - 12/11/08 03:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Right. I thought all churches were like that.:shrug:






I find it funny that the south is claimed to be racist yet I
have never been to one church down here that had a racial
message, it was always hell fire and damnation or kingdomw of
heaven and love of god


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9412745 - 12/11/08 03:22 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well I grew up in the Bible belt and until recently you wouldn't find a black person in a white church. There is still plenty of racial hatred in this country although a lot of it has gone underground.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9413419 - 12/11/08 05:30 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:

They didn't even like each other.

There is no connection, people who have no idea what they're talking about

Listen, EVERYONE in the entire state knew Blago was going down a long time ago.  Fitzgerald has said as much numerous times.

To think Obama or anyone else would have close dealings with him is ludicrous.  Call Obama what you will, but he's no moron.





"Obama said he was "absolutely certain" that his office was not involved in "any deal-making" with Blagojevich on the Senate seat."

"deal-making"


lets just wait and see but i would not be surprised to find out that deals were discussed. Just not made......


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9413456 - 12/11/08 05:35 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I don't see why Obama would be interested in any sort of deal. What could he possibly want that would be so valuable as to risk his career? He won the election, with millions of dollars left over. There's nothing else he needs.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zouden]
    #9413544 - 12/11/08 05:45 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I don't see why Obama would be interested in any sort of deal. What could he possibly want that would be so valuable as to risk his career? He won the election, with millions of dollars left over. There's nothing else he needs.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Icelander]
    #9414097 - 12/11/08 06:56 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well I grew up in the Bible belt and until recently you wouldn't find a black person in a white church. There is still plenty of racial hatred in this country although a lot of it has gone underground.




you can usually blame that on self segregation


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9415652 - 12/12/08 01:55 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

bond for Blagojevich was a mere $4500





That's pretty ridiculous.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9416180 - 12/12/08 03:53 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

zouden said:
I don't see why Obama would be interested in any sort of deal. What could he possibly want that would be so valuable as to risk his career? He won the election, with millions of dollars left over. There's nothing else he needs.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system




If it was spoils, then Obama would be telling Blagojevich to give the senate seat to someone. Not sell it to the highest bidder. There's obviously a very different motive here, and I don't see how Obama stands to gain anything. You'd be hard pressed to pin any of this on him.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zouden]
    #9416576 - 12/12/08 06:34 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

> I don't see how Obama stands to gain anything. You'd be hard pressed to pin any of this on him.

Obviously he wouldn't have anything to gain and everything to lose, thus he wouldn't be a part of it.  However, if it turns out that Obama (or his staff) had discussions with Blagojevich where 'deals' came up, and Obama didn't report this to the authorities, then it is pretty damning for Obama and his credibility regarding his campaign promises to clean up Washington.


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9416684 - 12/12/08 07:42 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

For those not at all familiar with Illinois politics, as seems to be the case with most of you who assume these guys were fast friends because both are Illinois politicians, this Washington Post article details the relationship between Blago and Obama pretty well.

Quote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/11/AR2008121103936.html?hpid=topnews

Like every other politician in Illinois, Gov. Rod Blagojevich waited for Barack Obama's call this summer. He told colleagues that he expected a speaking role at the 2008 Democratic National Convention, a nice bit of payback for being the first governor to endorse the senator from Illinois in his campaign for president. By showing off a connection to Obama in Denver, Blagojevich hoped to repair his own diminished reputation.

Obama's campaign made speaking offers to the Illinois treasurer, the comptroller, the attorney general and a Chicago city clerk. Sen. Richard J. Durbin (Ill.) was asked to introduce Obama on the convention's final night; Rep. Jesse L. Jackson Jr. (Ill.) was told he would speak on television during prime time. Finally, fed up and embarrassed that he still had heard nothing, Blagojevich joked to a crowd at the Illinois State Fair that, yes, he also had been asked to speak -- at 4 a.m., in a Denver area men's bathroom.

Long before federal prosecutors charged Blagojevich with bribery this week, Obama had worked to distance himself from his home-state governor. The two men have not talked for more than a year, colleagues said, save for a requisite handshake at a funeral or public event. Blagojevich rarely campaigned for Obama and never stumped with him. The governor arrived late at the Democratic convention and skipped Obama's victory-night celebration at Chicago's Grant Park.

Even though they often occupied the same political space -- two young lawyers in Chicago, two power brokers in Springfield, two ambitious men who coveted the presidency -- Obama and Blagojevich never warmed to each other, Illinois politicians said. They sometimes used each other to propel their own careers but privately acted like rivals. Blagojevich considered Obama naive and pretentious and dismissed his success as "good luck." Obama disparaged Blagojevich for what he viewed as his combativeness, his disorganization and his habit of arriving at official events half an hour late.
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Under different circumstances, friends said, Obama might have derived some satisfaction from seeing Blagojevich handcuffed for allegedly trying to sell off Obama's vacated Senate seat to the highest bidder. But, only six weeks after Obama won the presidency by casting himself as a reformer, the Blagojevich scandal is a jarring reminder that Obama's political origins are in a city and state long tainted by corruption.

Blagojevich was elected in 2002 as a reform governor, but he has faced a series of investigations and charges of ethical irregularities ever since.

"Obama saw this coming, and he was very cautious about not having dealings with the governor for quite some time," said Abner Mikva, a former congressman and appeals court judge who was Obama's political mentor in Chicago. "The governor was perhaps the only American public officeholder who didn't speak at the convention, and that wasn't by accident. He's politically poisonous. You don't get through Chicago like Barack Obama did unless you know how to avoid people like that."

But Obama and Blagojevich shared pieces of the Chicago political network, which is why this has been an uncomfortable week for Obama's presidential transition team. Senior adviser David Axelrod once advised Blagojevich. Antoin "Tony" Rezko, a developer who was convicted in June of fraud and money laundering, raised money for both men. Robert Blackwell Jr., a longtime Obama friend, served on Blagojevich's gubernatorial transition team. Blagojevich appointed one of Obama's closest confidants, Eric Whitaker, as director of the Illinois Department of Public Health.

The president-elect's connection to Blagojevich is emblematic of his political rise in Chicago. Obama had contact with corruption, but rarely firsthand. He relied on the establishment when he needed it, but he maintained enough distance to cast himself as an outsider.

"Few people I've ever known have as good a sense about who might end up getting you in trouble," said Denny Jacobs, a retired Illinois politician from East Moline who befriended Obama when they both served in the state Senate. "It's like a sixth sense. Chicago's a mess, and he was surrounded by it. But he knew the people that could drag you down and tarnish your image."

Even though they both began their careers in Chicago, Blagojevich and Obama operated on distinct tracks. Blagojevich, the son of a steelworker who was born in Serbia, grew up on the city's predominantly white North Side and rode a pair of buses with his mother to his first Chicago Cubs game. He married the daughter of a gritty, deal-making alderman and entered politics as an unapologetic product -- and representative -- of the Chicago Democratic machine. He drew support from the city's white middle class and was elected to the state legislature in 1992.

Obama, a transplant from Hawaii and New York City, moved into the progressive, integrated Hyde Park neighborhood and attended White Sox games on the South Side. In his campaign for state Senate, he cast himself as the righteous alternative to what he called "old-school politics" and pitched his case to a coalition of African Americans and Hyde Park's liberal upper class.

Obama and Blagojevich rarely interacted until Blagojevich ran for governor. Obama told his friends in Springfield that he was unimpressed by Blagojevich's résumé, and he tried to lobby his friend Durbin to enter the race before deciding to support Roland Burris in the Democratic primary.

"When Blagojevich beat me, I told Barack to get on board with him," Burris said. "It was kind of like swallowing his pride a little bit, because he didn't really see that they had anything in common."

About all Blagojevich and Obama shared was searing ambition, which is what occasionally brought them together. Obama recognized that a Democratic governor could help him pass legislation and build his résumé in anticipation of a U.S. Senate run, so he helped Blagojevich's campaign as an informal adviser. Once Blagojevich was elected, he and Obama formed an awkward, arranged marriage: Obama passed a steady succession of legislation and built his reputation as a power player in Springfield; Blagojevich signed the bills and took the center seat at celebratory news conferences.

It worked just fine, Springfield politicians said, until Obama started to eclipse Blagojevich as the rising star in Illinois politics. Blagojevich never endorsed Obama in his U.S. Senate bid in 2004, and he expressed a preference for two other Democratic candidates. On the campaign trail, Obama sometimes made a point to highlight his distance from Blagojevich and the rest of the administration. "Nobody sent me," he often told his crowds.

"The governor didn't offer his support, and to be honest, we didn't really ask for it," said Jim Cauley, a Kentucky native whom Obama hired to run his U.S. Senate campaign. "We weren't going to the old hall or chasing the county chairs. We wanted to show we weren't a part of that world."
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While Obama prepared to deliver the keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention, a speech that would launch him to stardom, Blagojevich was back in Springfield watching his own reputation dissolve. After a poor first term, he fought over the state budget with Democratic leaders before flying to Boston and arriving an hour late at a party held in his honor. The event was sparsely attended. Obama made only a brief appearance.

"We have one salvation, and that is Barack," Jacobs, the state senator, said at the time. "It probably knocks Blagojevich down a peg from the leadership chart."

Not long thereafter, Obama started cultivating Illinois leadership of his own. He mentored a basketball buddy, Alexi Giannoulias, and supported his run for state treasurer. He befriended Attorney General Lisa Madigan and Comptroller Daniel W. Hynes. On one night in August, Obama boosted the gubernatorial hopes of all three by inviting each to speak during the opening night of the Democratic convention. Blagojevich watched from his seat.

As Obama went on to win the presidency and his rift with the Illinois governor crystallized, Blagojevich grew increasingly desperate. In phone calls reported in the criminal complaint, he pined for a spot in the Obama administration. Maybe, the governor reasoned, he could let Obama pick his own Senate successor in exchange for a job as an ambassador or as secretary of health and human services. Or maybe Obama could set up Blagojevich's wife, Patricia, with a cushy, high-paid position on a corporate board.

But Blagojevich's solicitations went nowhere, and it became clear that Obama had abandoned him for good.

"They're not willing to give me anything but appreciation," the governor told his chief of staff, John Harris. "[Expletive] them."




--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9417179 - 12/12/08 11:23 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Well I grew up in the Bible belt and until recently you wouldn't find a black person in a white church. There is still plenty of racial hatred in this country although a lot of it has gone underground.




you can usually blame that on self segregation




Yeah right. And they self segregate because?

Don't kid yourself. I grew up there and heard what they said outside of church.:tongue:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zouden]
    #9417249 - 12/12/08 11:52 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

zouden said:
I don't see why Obama would be interested in any sort of deal. What could he possibly want that would be so valuable as to risk his career? He won the election, with millions of dollars left over. There's nothing else he needs.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system




If it was spoils, then Obama would be telling Blagojevich to give the senate seat to someone. Not sell it to the highest bidder. There's obviously a very different motive here, and I don't see how Obama stands to gain anything. You'd be hard pressed to pin any of this on him.





this is what i find strange.


Between 11/7 and the Blago conference call on 11/10, there were two reports from CNN.

11/9 - Source: Obama wants Valerie Jarrett to replace him in Senate

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/09/source-obama-wants-valerie-jarrett-to-replace-him-in-senate/

"(CNN) — A prominent Democratic source close to Barack Obama confirmed Sunday that Valerie Jarrett is Obama’s choice to replace him in the Senate."

11/10 - Sources: Jarrett headed to White House, not Senate

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/10/sources-jarrett-headed-to-white-house-not-senate/#more-30061

"(CNN) — Two Democratic sources close to President-elect Barack Obama tell CNN that top adviser Valerie Jarrett will not be appointed to replace him in the U.S. Senate." (Posted at 7:56 pm)


Then,

Axelrod said--counter to Blagojevich--Obama never wanted Valerie Jarrett in the Senate

"CAMBRIDGE, MASS.--Contrary to comments made by Gov. Blagojevich--according to federal wiretaps--about President elect Barack Obama wanting confidant Valerie Jarrett to replace him in the Senate, David Axelrod said Thursday that Obama's "preference was always she serve in the White House." Jarrett was tapped to be a senior advisor. Axelrod spoke at a forum at Harvard University's Institute of Politics."


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/10/sources-jarrett-headed-to-white-house-not-senate/#more-30061


Looks like Obamas team was tipped off.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Seuss]
    #9417267 - 12/12/08 11:56 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
  if it turns out that Obama (or his staff) had discussions with Blagojevich where 'deals' came up, and Obama didn't report this to the authorities, then it is pretty damning for Obama and his credibility regarding his campaign promises to clean up Washington.




If someone on Obamas team (like his Chief of Staff!!!)
Had Knowledge of corruption and did not report it, is that a crime?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Icelander]
    #9418275 - 12/12/08 03:05 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Well I grew up in the Bible belt and until recently you wouldn't find a black person in a white church. There is still plenty of racial hatred in this country although a lot of it has gone underground.




you can usually blame that on self segregation




Yeah right. And they self segregate because?

Don't kid yourself. I grew up there and heard what they said outside of church.:tongue:




because people usually tend to hang out with people similar
to them, ever been to someplace referred to as 'china town',
seems most of the people there are asian, it's weird how we
have areas that are predominantly black or hispanic too


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9418371 - 12/12/08 03:17 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I been to China town, hung out and ate some meals, people smiled at me even. but I never saw anyone ever ever ever ever but a white person in my church in Michigan and in any other church I attended back then. I heard those same people call em niggers outside of church.

You are kidding yourself.

Oh yea but my sister went to a mostly black Pentecostal church and was welcomed.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Icelander]
    #9419241 - 12/12/08 05:30 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

you're talking michigan, I was referring to the south, I guess we know where the racists are as I mentioned earlier


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9419255 - 12/12/08 05:34 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I have been in churches in the south also. When I was young and more ignorant I traveled the circuit of baptist churches with some of the folk in my church.

Don't kid yourself. Or maybe you just need to.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Icelander]
    #9419352 - 12/12/08 05:53 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

He knows he's wrong, he just won't admit it.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9419542 - 12/12/08 06:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well this is the political forum.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9421835 - 12/13/08 01:30 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
He knows he's wrong, he just won't admit it.




Welcome to the mod team.


--------------------
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zorbman]
    #9421883 - 12/13/08 01:40 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I have no problem with Phred, or with Pris in other forums.

But making him a mod here is an act of utter lunacy.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9421986 - 12/13/08 02:07 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I have no problem with Phred, or with Pris in other forums.

But making him a mod here is an act of utter lunacy.




According to Seuss there were no suitable moderate or left-leaning candidates available. :lol:

Does a fish ever see the water it is swimming in?

I love the new nickname for the Ill gov.

"Pay Rod" :grin:


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9422142 - 12/13/08 02:39 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
He knows he's wrong, he just won't admit it.




are you guys claiming people dont self segregate?


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9423299 - 12/13/08 11:00 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I have no problem with Phred, or with Pris in other forums.

But making him a mod here is an act of utter lunacy.




Would you have preferred me?  Bwahahahahaha.  I heard it was actually considered.  Now there's something that ought to give you the screaming fantods.


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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9423304 - 12/13/08 11:01 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Icelander thinks that I'm a racist because I use the word Negro when talking about Negroes.  Odd.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9423318 - 12/13/08 11:07 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It's not that odd. I think it's a bit strange for you to use that term. It'd be like me going around talking about "the Jew". Even if it's technically okay, it still makes you sound old-fashioned and a bit racist. Just sayin' :shrug:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
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                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Posts: 81,741
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zouden]
    #9423352 - 12/13/08 11:19 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

When the United Negro College Fund changes its name I might give one inch of credence to that notion.  I also find every other term inaccurate.  They aren't black and African can be quite white.  At what point in my ancestry did I cease to be Irish-, German-, Scottish-, English-, Passamaquoddy-, whatever the fuck else I am-American?

As someone married to a Jew I find nothing bigoted whatsoever in the use of the phrase, the Jew, depending, of course, on how it is rendered.  There is nothing intrinsically racist or whatever in either of those words.  Nigger and kike have different connotations.  Negro and Jew?  Nope.  I use "homo" a lot as well.  Faggot and dyke are pejorative.  Gay is ridiculous.  Homo is accurate.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9423693 - 12/13/08 01:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Are the planets aligned?

Once again, we are in agreement.

I have never said African-American in my life.  What a laughable term.  About as apt as calling myself a Caucasian.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9423894 - 12/13/08 02:25 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

A veritable syzygy.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,286
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Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9423998 - 12/13/08 02:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I had to look that up.

I like it.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Illinois Governor Arrested For Selling Vacant US Senate Seat [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9424033 - 12/13/08 02:53 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You may well end up with a vocabulary before I'm done with you.  Not much else, but a vocabulary for sure.


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