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Invisiblekake
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Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney
    #8953089 - 09/19/08 01:35 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

All I can say is... finally.


http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2008/09/17-0


September 18th, 2008

EFF Sues NSA, President Bush, and Vice President Cheney to Stop Illegal Surveillance

New Legal Challenge to Unconstitutional Domestic Spying

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) filed a lawsuit against the National Security Agency (NSA) and other government agencies today on behalf of AT&T customers to stop the illegal, unconstitutional, and ongoing dragnet surveillance of their communications and communications records. The five individual plaintiffs are also suing President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Cheney's chief of staff David Addington, former Attorney General and White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales and other individuals who ordered or participated in the warrantless domestic surveillance.

The lawsuit, Jewel v. NSA, is aimed at ending the NSA's dragnet surveillance of millions of ordinary Americans and holding accountable the government officials who illegally authorized it. Evidence in the case includes undisputed documents provided by former AT&T telecommunications technician Mark Klein showing AT&T has routed copies of Internet traffic to a secret room in San Francisco controlled by the NSA.

That same evidence is central to Hepting v. AT&T, a class-action lawsuit filed by EFF in 2006 to stop the telecom giant's participation in the illegal surveillance program. Earlier this year, Congress passed a law attempting to derail that case by unconstitutionally granting immunity to AT&T and other companies that took part in the dragnet. Hepting v. AT&T is now stalled in federal court while EFF argues with the government over whether the immunity is constitutional and applies in that case -- litigation that is likely to continue well into 2009.

"In addition to suing AT&T, we've now opened a second front in the battle to stop the NSA's illegal surveillance of millions of ordinary Americans and hold personally responsible those who authorized or participated in the spying program," said Senior Staff Attorney Kevin Bankston. "For years, the NSA has been engaged in a massive and massively illegal fishing expedition through AT&T's domestic networks and databases of customer records. Our goal in this new case against the government, as in our case against AT&T, is to dismantle this dragnet surveillance program as soon as possible."

In addition to suing the government agencies involved in the domestic dragnet, the lawsuit also targets the individuals responsible for creating, authorizing, and implementing the illegal program, including President Bush and Vice President Cheney.

"Demanding personal accountability from President Bush, Vice President Cheney and others responsible for the NSA's dragnet surveillance of ordinary Americans' communications is the best way to guarantee that such blatantly illegal spying will not be authorized in the future," said EFF Legal Director Cindy Cohn. "Our lawsuit today should sound a clear warning to future occupants of the White House: if you break the law and violate Americans' privacy, there will be consequences."

For the full complaint in Jewel v. NSA:
http://www.eff.org/files/filenode/jewel/jewel.complaint.pdf

For more on the case:
http://www.eff.org/cases/jewel

Related Issues: NSA Spying

Related Cases: Jewel v. NSA


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Offlinej0nnyb0y05
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: kake]
    #8953339 - 09/19/08 03:39 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

fuck ya, i hope this wins


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: kake]
    #8953476 - 09/19/08 05:13 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

What a waste of time and money.  Typical of the EFF... I love their mission, but they seem to be nothing but a bunch of dropout lawyers with their heads stuck in the sand.  Perhaps I am being overly harsh, as I haven't had to deal with them in many years, but I doubt anything has changed.

EFF Lawyer: Web sites operators should go to jail for logging users access.  It is illegal.
Me: Why illegal?
EFF Lawyer: Because it is illegal to record somebody without their permission?
Me: Really?  (points to security camera in hallway)  What about that?
EFF Lawyer: You can see the camera, so you know you are being recorded!
Me: And people know that web sites log user access.  They are no different.
EFF Lawyer: Nobody knows that web sites log users access.
Me: You do.
Eff Lawyer: I've studied the issue extensively.
Me: Not everybody knows that camera I just pointed out is recording them.  Again, what is the difference.

(Pretty close to an actual conversation I had with some loser lawyer from the EFF back in '96 at a conference in DC.)


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Invisiblekake
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: Seuss]
    #8954003 - 09/19/08 09:34 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Seuss:  that seems a bit narrow minded, you're right


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OfflineIrieforester
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: kake]
    #8954022 - 09/19/08 09:40 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

EFF Lawyer: Web sites operators should go to jail for logging users access.  It is illegal.
Me: Why illegal?
EFF Lawyer: Because it is illegal to record somebody without their permission?
Me: Really?  (points to security camera in hallway)  What about that?
EFF Lawyer: You can see the camera, so you know you are being recorded!
Me: And people know that web sites log user access.  They are no different.
EFF Lawyer: Nobody knows that web sites log users access.
Me: You do.
Eff Lawyer: I've studied the issue extensively.
Me: Not everybody knows that camera I just pointed out is recording them.  Again, what is the difference.



:ilold:

But really, they're keeping us safe from the terrorists, so who are we to complain?


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: Irieforester]
    #8954514 - 09/19/08 11:59 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Seuss, that is totally different from snooping on phone conversations. How would you like it if they published a notice that the govt could spy on you inside your home without further notice? You have been told so now you have no privacy at all. It's a constitutional issue and to equate it with been looked at in public is to miss the point all together. It's people like you who make it easy for people like Bush to gut our freedoms.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: Stonehenge]
    #8954548 - 09/19/08 12:07 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> Seuss, that is totally different from snooping on phone conversations.

I wasn't talking about snooping phone conversations; I was talking about the ineptness of the EFF lawyers.  Why didn't they sue when this first became news rather than waiting until now?


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OfflineMaverick
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: Seuss]
    #8958049 - 09/20/08 08:27 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Basically you're saying, since it's common sense we're being watched and our records are being snooped through, that it's perfectly fine?  I think there's a difference between a camera in a hallway of a private building vs someone monitoring your daily activities on the internet.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: Maverick]
    #8958658 - 09/20/08 12:10 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

EFF is really cool but its really just a bunch of college kids and a few young lawyers.  Some of them are really good and others apparently are not as good.  That lawyer you spoke with must have been smoking crack. 

My experience with them has been overwhelmingly positive, I see them sometimes at hacker conferences.  This year at Defcon I found a plain manilla envelope full of papers and CD's, it was a "media kit" that the EFF was giving out to various reporters.  I read through it and it was really good - It was full of solid arguments regarding the various digital privacy issues and they did a great job of explaining why digital privacy is a right that everyone should have.

I give money to both the EFF and ACLU because they are the only people really fighting for our rights with regards to the wiretapping issue.  Everyone else bitches and moans about wiretapping a lot but only the ACLU and EFF will actually do anything about it. 

Even if the lawsuit fails I think it will make the government a lot less likely to engage in these quasi-legal eavesdropping programs when they know they are likely to face lawsuits and the discovery process a couple years down the line.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: Maverick]
    #8958975 - 09/20/08 01:41 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> Basically you're saying, since it's common sense we're being watched and our records are being snooped through, that it's perfectly fine?

Basically, I'm saying that in my experience the EFF lawyers are second rate.  Beyond that, I'm not saying a thing!  The example I gave was an EXAMPLE, not what I think.  I was showing an EXAMPLE of a conversation that I had with an EFF lawyer that demonstrated how clueless she was.  Quit reading more into my statements. :rolleyes:


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: Seuss]
    #8959496 - 09/20/08 03:51 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I notice the corporate controlled media has kept quiet on this. You can find it on the net but good luck finding it in your local paper.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblekake
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: Stonehenge]
    #9314515 - 11/25/08 11:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

*bump*


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: Stonehenge]
    #9314593 - 11/26/08 12:02 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
I notice the corporate controlled media has kept quiet on this. You can find it on the net but good luck finding it in your local paper.





probably because everyone seems to agree that warantless wiretapping is good and that companies that break the law to do it should not only get new laws for the future but should have the existing laws they violated be nullified only as applied to them.


What's to cover?  The fact that people bitch about this stuff and the 'police state' and vote for obama is pretty dumb too.



I like the EFF.  Seuss' example is an example of zeal over logic and I agree its a stupid issue, but the government spying is pretty crappy.


The problem I have is that I don't know if it was unconstitutional/illegal or not, and under existing law I don't think anyone can make that determination but the participants.

The bullshit is that these cases are impossible to figure out without discovery.  They are limiting the normal court functions for some bullshit supposed harm and thereby preventing the cases from even proceeding.  In my mind, the companies should probably be liable for sec.1983 suits for violating people's constitutional rights depending on just what actually happened.


And I'm gonna be pretty pissed if obama starts making token speaches about privacy and shit like this after the bullshit he pulled.  Pretty much his only redeeming factors, but he managed to systematically dismantle them in the process of forming his new self.


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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: johnm214]
    #9315664 - 11/26/08 08:27 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The patriot act is ridiculous, and very broad. I've heard that Al Q doesn't even send emails: they have one account with a password, and just edit messages as drafts. Much harder to intercept that way.


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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: Green_T]
    #9315773 - 11/26/08 09:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

green_titan said:
The patriot act is ridiculous, and very broad. I've heard that Al Q doesn't even send emails: they have one account with a password, and just edit messages as drafts. Much harder to intercept that way.




Are you sure that wasn't just in a movie?

Because I just saw that in a movie (or TV show).


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Invisiblekake
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Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney [Re: kidaihuan]
    #9368652 - 12/04/08 08:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Subpoenas have been issued.


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