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 houdinihar
Adventurous Learner
Registered: 09/12/08
Posts: 1,111
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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 Thinking outside the box without grain 
#9352766 - 12/02/08 05:58 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Okay fellow fungiphiles,
I have this weird idea that we can come up with alternatives to grain that might be easier to sterilize or use without all the contam probs we encounter because of the spores, bacteria, etc on a favorite mycelial expander. something we dont have to soak for 12-24 hours to germinate the endospores, then cook in a pressure cooker for 30-90 minutes.
i know there are brf teks which only pasteurize the brf cakes.
what do you say? any takers?
heres my idea. why not some other kind of product that has carbohydrates, like sugar, or the flour we use for the BRFs. very convenient. instead of just limiting the idea to the 1/2 pint brf size, why not be able to use, say the perlite or verm in larger jars or grow bags in the same way as grain with the coating of the BRF on them. also, both verm and perlite are potentially reuseable once the carbs are gone and could be cooked at very high temp to burm off any carb product that was a leftover. would like to see some discussion on this. maybe someone would need to come up with a pellitized carb, like tapioca or something. anyway, lets see what this does. just thinking outside the box.
houdinihar
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Boris
Viking Warrior, of Valour
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 2,225
Loc: TX. 
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: houdinihar]
#9352799 - 12/02/08 06:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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--------------------
AMU 
Terence McKenna Said:
"We have to create culture, don't watch TV, don't read magazines, don't even listen to NPR. Create your own roadshow. The nexus of space and time where you are now is the most immediate sector of your universe, and if you're worrying about Michael Jackson or Bill Clinton or somebody else, then you are disempowered, you're giving it all away to icons, icons which are maintained by an electronic media so that you want to dress like X or have lips like Y. This is shit-brained, this kind of thinking. That is all cultural diversion, and what is real is you and your friends and your associations, your highs, your orgasms, your hopes, your plans, your fears. And we are told 'no', we're unimportant, we're peripheral. 'Get a degree, get a job, get a this, get a that.' And then you're a player, you don't want to even play in that game. You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that's being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world."
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HybridprX
Biodegrader of coir
Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 2,588
Loc: Canada 
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: Boris]
#9352904 - 12/02/08 06:16 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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perlite distributes water, it does not retain it.
if you want to use pf cakes like grains just use a food processor, I've grown mycelium on dextrose and verm before but it did not have enough nutrients to form proper fruit bodies, most grew to be a cm and aborted.
You could try coir cakes but those two take forever, or even hpoo/straw bags inoculated with LC or grains and then use that to spawn to a larger substrate.
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libertaire
liberator
Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 4,204
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: HybridprX]
#9353805 - 12/02/08 07:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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This might be of interest to you.
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TeamAmerica
Registered: 12/02/08
Posts: 2,954
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: houdinihar]
#9354113 - 12/02/08 08:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Here's the thing...
Anything that has the properties to grow mushrooms will also have other bacterial spores in it. Infact, the more the bacteria likes it, the mushrooms will probably like it just as well. Anything that potentially doesnt have bacteria in it, shrooms probably wont grow on it.
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houdinihar
Adventurous Learner
Registered: 09/12/08
Posts: 1,111
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: libertaire]
#9391984 - 12/08/08 12:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
libertaire said:
This might be of interest to you.
libertaire -
it is of interest to me. thanks for the redirect. nice thoughtful insights and trials. good to see other experimenters and their results.ilike what RR said about the nutritional content of rice compared to other parts of some substrates.
i will be doing some other trials thhis week myself. will followup.
houdinihar
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houdinihar
Adventurous Learner
Registered: 09/12/08
Posts: 1,111
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: houdinihar]
#9613542 - 01/15/09 09:32 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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libertaire--
i reread again your link with a focus on sandyman240:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=myposts&Number=9144883&page=1&fpart=1
"sandyman240
Yea man this is exactly how I do it. It beats the pants off of WBS for spawn. So much easier to prepare. The recipe I use is approx:
1 part ground white rice
3 parts verm
0.8 Part Water
0.1 Part Shredded Horse Manure (I spawn to horse manure this is to get it prepared)
Then use dry verm to adjust to less than field cap - The actual proportions of all ingredients matter very little, just make sure its proper moisture not too wet.
This is for spawn only, not to be fruited straight. I have used it many times and it works so very well. I use 20cc of LC to innoc and have 100% in 8 days. Colonizes a monotub in under a week.
PC 2 hours at 15 psi for 100% success. I cool mine in front of a flowhood because I can. You should too! "
another nice piece of the pie to learn from
will keep going,
houdinihar
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: houdinihar]
#9613813 - 01/15/09 10:56 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
i know there are brf teks which only pasteurize the brf cakes.
Brf cakes are sterilized, not pasteurized.
Quote:
PC 2 hours at 15 psi for 100% success. I cool mine in front of a flowhood because I can. You should too! "
I thought your whole idea was to avoid that???
If you're going to sterilize as you should, then use rye berries and get the most bang for your buck, hands down.
RR
--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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libertaire
liberator
Registered: 08/06/08
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: RogerRabbit]
#9613981 - 01/15/09 11:29 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Let's put this to rest right now. Which is more nutritious for mushrooms, brf or grains? I've heard you (RR) being quoted to say that brf is much more nutritious than grains, so I'm just wondering what, other than the ability to do G2G, is the advantage of using grains?
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Boris
Viking Warrior, of Valour
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 2,225
Loc: TX.
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: libertaire]
#9622642 - 01/16/09 06:23 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Rice is a grain aye ? In the 5 basic food groups, rice falls under the Bread, cereal, pasta, ya know, multi-grain stuff... I would say rice is JUST as nutritious as any grain. If there's a difference, its prolly only slight, not like night and day. So in conclusion: who cares, whatever works for you...
--------------------
AMU
Terence McKenna Said:
"We have to create culture, don't watch TV, don't read magazines, don't even listen to NPR. Create your own roadshow. The nexus of space and time where you are now is the most immediate sector of your universe, and if you're worrying about Michael Jackson or Bill Clinton or somebody else, then you are disempowered, you're giving it all away to icons, icons which are maintained by an electronic media so that you want to dress like X or have lips like Y. This is shit-brained, this kind of thinking. That is all cultural diversion, and what is real is you and your friends and your associations, your highs, your orgasms, your hopes, your plans, your fears. And we are told 'no', we're unimportant, we're peripheral. 'Get a degree, get a job, get a this, get a that.' And then you're a player, you don't want to even play in that game. You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that's being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world."
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houdinihar
Adventurous Learner
Registered: 09/12/08
Posts: 1,111
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: TeamAmerica]
#9655546 - 01/21/09 10:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TeamAmerica said:
Here's the thing...
Anything that has the properties to grow mushrooms will also have other bacterial spores in it. Infact, the more the bacteria likes it, the mushrooms will probably like it just as well. Anything that potentially doesnt have bacteria in it, shrooms probably wont grow on it.
good point TeamAmerica. i guess i'm looking at trying to cut down on the bacterial/mold problem while trying alternative means of mycelial, then fruiting growth without using a whole grain seed.
houdinihar
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gawn
Stranger
Registered: 02/03/08
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: houdinihar]
#9655627 - 01/21/09 10:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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has anyonr tried using a bunch of lc to knock up a bulk substrate ? ive noticed alot of people around here seem to have a bunch of lc's laying around.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: libertaire]
#9655749 - 01/21/09 10:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
libertaire said:
Let's put this to rest right now. Which is more nutritious for mushrooms, brf or grains? I've heard you (RR) being quoted to say that brf is much more nutritious than grains, so I'm just wondering what, other than the ability to do G2G, is the advantage of using grains?
I believe you're mistaken, unless I mis-typed somewhere by accident. I've said BRF is more nutritious than bulk substrates such as manure or coir. Flours tend to pack if used in larger containers, so for the expansion of mycelium, whole cereal grains are the best we have available. All of the original posters ideas have been tried numerous times already.
RR
--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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libertaire
liberator
Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 4,204
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: RogerRabbit]
#9657271 - 01/22/09 07:01 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ah, I see, thus why it has to be added to verm, to give aeration. Thanks.
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ronjohn7779
Stranger
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: libertaire]
#9657289 - 01/22/09 07:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm a man of practicality. I only do whats known to be proven winners. I don't see whats the point in fucking around if the system isn't broken.
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"Lennox Lewis, I'm coming for you man. My style is impetuous. My defense is impregnable, and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat his children. Praise be to Allah!" An American Hero Iron Mike!
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houdinihar
Adventurous Learner
Registered: 09/12/08
Posts: 1,111
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: ronjohn7779]
#9659897 - 01/22/09 04:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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excellent point ronjohn7779. however if everyone were content to ride on rafts columbus would never have sailed the ocean blue. i do like the "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it" thought usually, but just for experiments sake, farting around with new ideas is often profitable and advances the science of our mushroom growing. and look what advances have been made in mushroom culture because people were ambitious and adventurous. anyway, as i said earlier, this is supposed to be thinking outside the box. something novel to try. so many teks posted that actually deal with innovations in trying something outside the box.
houdinihar
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houdinihar
Adventurous Learner
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: houdinihar]
#9704775 - 01/30/09 09:42 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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okay--been thinking outside the box again.
why grain or other seeds? because all the nutrients are encapsulated into a small body that can be easily infected by our mycelium or spores, and it withstands PC times and temps. does that about sum it up?
so what about another type of encapsulted food--like beans, any kind of bean?
has anyone done any work with these critters? i know most beans wouldn't stand up to the intense temps and times and pressures inside the PC, but maybe they wouldn't have to be cooked so long. but beans do have alot of carbs and some protein too.
i am going to try this on my next cook. i will buy the smallest ones i know of and try it. can't hurt to try another avenue. rice is pretty small too and i know it is used in some grows, not just brf. i read on some site about a scientific expeirment where they used several different types of grains to try to grow the sclerotia forming psilocybe and the rice grain seemed to produce sclerotia faster in the p.tampanensis, at least--anyway---
now ronjohn7779, here's another catch to your thought. Quote:
I'm a man of practicality. I only do whats known to be proven winners. I don't see whats the point in fucking around if the system isn't broken.
you know we've been having all this problem with grain prices going up, esp. corn and wheat because of the so-called need for biofuels, it could get to the point where it prices itself outside our comfort zone of buying to use for our hobby or business, so in this case a cheaper alternative that's just as good could be beneficial to us as well and it wouldn't be in the trading spotlight so much.
just thinking outside the box friends.
houdinihar
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libertaire
liberator
Registered: 08/06/08
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Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: houdinihar]
#9704913 - 01/30/09 10:21 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/9613035/an/0/page/0
There's an outside of the box grow you might find interesting. Besides the fact that he exposed it to the environment several times, who grain brown rice might be a good alternative to other grains, especially if you don't have a pressure cooker, as it appears this gentleman simply microwaved his. It may be a one time thing, but looks like something that should be experimented with.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
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Posts: 42,214
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: libertaire]
#9705102 - 01/30/09 11:08 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
all this problem with grain prices going up, esp. corn and wheat because of the so-called need for biofuels, it could get to the point where it prices itself outside our comfort zone
I feel fairly certain that with a more intelligent regime in power, the corporate welfare to farmers that spawned the horrible idea of depleting our soil for energy will pass, and grain prices will return to normal levels.
RR
--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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 Shroominit
Part Time Mycologist
Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 4,662
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Re: Thinking outside the box without grain [Re: RogerRabbit]
#9705162 - 01/30/09 11:21 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
I feel fairly certain that with a more intelligent regime in power, the corporate welfare to farmers that spawned the horrible idea of depleting our soil for energy will pass, and grain prices will return to normal levels.
RR
I'm inclined to agree, though I don't know whether you disagree with the current regime or the previous one. It seems to me that the current is willing to throw as much money at ethanol as it takes to 'clean up fuel'... I have researched energy over the past few years and it seems obvious that ethanol is a horrible idea as a fuel source. [/politics]
Regardless of that, I'm sticking with grain. It's nutritious, the outside can stay dry, while the inside retains moisture. It's small enough to allow for a strong network of mycelium to form between individual grains, and it shakes/breaks apart easily. Buy a few 50lb bags if you are worried about prices rising. Keep them in a cold dry place.
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