Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Philosophy of Music
    #9350519 - 12/02/08 10:49 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Marriam-Webster dictionary defines Music as "the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity"

Why do humans find music to be 'pleasurable or good' versus other miscellaneous sound waves that enter the ear and get interpreted by the brain?  Is it just another mystery into the human imagination?  Does it have a biological factor?


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9350534 - 12/02/08 10:51 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Vibrations feel good.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Icelander]
    #9350539 - 12/02/08 10:53 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yes i understand that but why?  What the importance of it?


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9350561 - 12/02/08 10:57 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Gee that's a good question? :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Icelander]
    #9350575 - 12/02/08 11:00 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Every culture around the globe and for many hundreds of years have had music.  Is it just a by product of the human imagination or does it have some sort of importance biologically?


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletis matt
Stranger

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 100
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9350724 - 12/02/08 11:28 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Huxley

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSalted_Ape
Stranger
Male

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 27
Loc: Boulder, CO
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9350746 - 12/02/08 11:32 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Unbelievable.  I just did a search for this and was in the middle of making a thread about music in mythology.  I postponed that to find more examples and this is the next thread I stumble across.

Music can be very complex, obviously, but I think what humans find most irresistible about it is the rhythm.  Like, if every song is a comment on life in general, the raw rhythm is what says there's a way to the world, and the finer points in the song are sort of incomplete, imperfect, or superfluous.  This serves no purpose biologically but spiritually, sure it makes you feel good.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetempingasashaman
\\\\\\\\////////\\\\\\\\
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,374
Loc: under the rainbow
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: tis matt]
    #9350758 - 12/02/08 11:36 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I figure the only language that we will be able to communicate with an alien race is going to be music. It's really the universal language.

Everyone can understand and put their 2 cents in. Music is not a human conception. Of course that depends on what you call music; is the wind rustling in the trees and the siren you're tripping out to considered music? To my ears it is, and we humans have done nothing but copy nature in her mysterious ways.


--------------------
the greatest use of life is to spend it on something that will outlast it

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: tempingasashaman]
    #9350916 - 12/02/08 12:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

What other animals embrace music besides humans?


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinejvm
I knew the pieces fit!
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 2,031
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Icelander]
    #9351075 - 12/02/08 12:30 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Vibrations feel good.




Good good good good vibrations
I'm pickin' up good vibrations

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: jvm]
    #9351095 - 12/02/08 12:33 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

A beautiful piece of music. In fact my favorite of the Beach Boys.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: tempingasashaman]
    #9351147 - 12/02/08 12:43 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

underaroof said:
I figure the only language that we will be able to communicate with an alien race is going to be music. It's really the universal language.




How do you figure that?  What is music to us would likely be inaudible or just noise to them.  They may not even have a sense of hearing!  Music has subjective meaning to humans, it often means different things to different people.  Imaging how difficult it would be to communicate an idea to a different species using music, it would be nearly impossible.  Music would be among the worst ways to attempt communication with aliens.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: DieCommie]
    #9351385 - 12/02/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
How do you figure that?  What is music to us would likely be inaudible or just noise to them.  They may not even have a sense of hearing!  Music has subjective meaning to humans, it often means different things to different people.  Imaging how difficult it would be to communicate an idea to a different species using music, it would be nearly impossible.  Music would be among the worst ways to attempt communication with aliens.




QFT.  One even has to ask if communication period is possible; what if the very concept of a thought or communicable idea is species-specific?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: deCypher]
    #9352158 - 12/02/08 04:18 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

This sounds more like science than philosophy

Its all about the vibe man :hippie:

If you want to read some philosophy about music, check out Arnold Schoenberg. I need to get back it, Ive never gotten that far. Its definitely something to read over a period of years.

Edited by daytripper23 (12/02/08 04:36 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: deCypher]
    #9352279 - 12/02/08 04:44 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Certainly there are other species out there that have systems of language based upon symbols, if that's the case then ideas are essentially communicable regardless of difficulty. But I agree that music wouldn't be a very good way of communicating, not only because of the afformentioned problem of structural design, but because even to us humans a song does not mean one thing. Music is up for interpretation; communication with the first alien species we contact shoudn't be.

While we're here and thinking of other sentient life, take a moment to imagine what Earth would be like if that meteor hadn't struck and wiped out those giant reptiles.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetempingasashaman
\\\\\\\\////////\\\\\\\\
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,374
Loc: under the rainbow
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: DieCommie]
    #9352358 - 12/02/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

underaroof said:
I figure the only language that we will be able to communicate with an alien race is going to be music. It's really the universal language.




How do you figure that?  What is music to us would likely be inaudible or just noise to them.  They may not even have a sense of hearing!  Music has subjective meaning to humans, it often means different things to different people.  Imaging how difficult it would be to communicate an idea to a different species using music, it would be nearly impossible.  Music would be among the worst ways to attempt communication with aliens.


I don't know man, I really don't think its too hard to send out a controlled vibration with a certain interval. It's better than trying to speak to them in English anyway.

Haven't you ever seen Close Encounters of the Third Kind  :lol:

Symbols would be good, but what if they don't see in the visible light spectrum?


--------------------
the greatest use of life is to spend it on something that will outlast it

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: tempingasashaman]
    #9352403 - 12/02/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

You're missing my point, our minds use symbols as a base. Everything we experience we do our best to label with either sounds (words) or emotions. When we speak a word our memory conjurs up the meaning as we know it.  ...I'm not very good at esplainin'.

And what DieCommie is saying is that maybe they physically can't interpret information on the length of vibration we call sound.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Bernackums]
    #9352615 - 12/02/08 05:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I just went out an watched the sun set and smoked a joint and it i was thinking about Music (as well as art) but we will stick to music since that is the thread topic.  And how it is a part of a higher evolutionary part of language.  That some how language and music are intertwined.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemr_kite
The Watcher
Male


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9352838 - 12/02/08 06:08 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Im a professional musician so I think about this a lot. Im young but Ive played a lot of "serious" music too, and overall I can see that all great and emotive music, of any genre has
a) rhythm which communicates most directly to the body, lesserly to the emotions and intellect
b) melody which communicates primarily to the emotions, and also intellect
c) harmony which communicates primarily to the emotions, and also intellect
d) form which communicates to the intellect and emotions

(this is whether it be bowie, stravinsky, bach, bjork or thelon. monk)

A lot of contemporary music is highly rhythmical, but too complex to make an immediate connection with the body, or then the mind. It is also too abstract melodicly/harmonically to make an immediate connection. IE it is too intellectual to ellicit an emotional responce.

Therefore while its fine to push the envolope, it's getting away from that basic philosophy of immediate connection to body/mind. Just my 2 cents but Im alarmed by how many of my fellow "musicians" are unable to discuss this.

Then there is also the role of the performer, who is absolutely vital in creating the bridge between the "music" and the audience - indeed how much music is interpretation of the composer's original, and how much it is the personal emotional communication of the performer is a balance that always needs re-addressing.

I find it best when the performer is as selfless as possible - almost invisible compared to the bigger picture. But there are pros and cons


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

Edited by mr_kite (12/02/08 06:11 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9352871 - 12/02/08 06:13 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

I definitely agree, but I think it is only useful in human-to-human communication. I find music is one of the few ways to even come close to fully expressing an emotion (to make the recipient feel said emotion, even if briefly, succeeding in communication), that Aldous Huxley quote that's been floating around would do fine here.

[Derail]Speaking of sunsets and music (and smoking joints), I've really been wanting to make a thread to post music that would go perfectly with sunrises and sunsets. Tripping on mushrooms and watching either of the two to a well chosen song can hold alot of meaning to me, and I'm sure there are others like me. I even made the thread, I was all set up before I realized the upload limit on Shroomery is 10mb (unless donator), so I couldn't upload the song I have chosen for sunrise (read: the song I really to listen to on drugs during sunrise).

Here's what I have for sunset... [/Derail]

Edit: Sunrise is The Mighty Rio Grande by This Will Destroy You, do yourself a favour and check it out (during sunrise).


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Edited by Bernackums (12/02/08 06:23 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinejvm
I knew the pieces fit!
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 2,031
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Bernackums]
    #9353980 - 12/02/08 08:13 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Music is emotional vibrations that can be heard and felt.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetempingasashaman
\\\\\\\\////////\\\\\\\\
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,374
Loc: under the rainbow
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Bernackums]
    #9354656 - 12/02/08 09:41 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

fridge is great

four tets better  :super:


--------------------
the greatest use of life is to spend it on something that will outlast it

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineC.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Male


Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9355606 - 12/03/08 12:10 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Music is math, light is math, humans are math. The music you like the most; probably imitates your heart rhythms.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: tempingasashaman]
    #9356433 - 12/03/08 07:46 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

underaroof said:
fridge is great

four tets better  :super:




Nah son, both in the same playlist, that's where it's at.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Bernackums]
    #9357476 - 12/03/08 12:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Im a professional musician so I think about this a lot. Im young but Ive played a lot of "serious" music too, and overall I can see that all great and emotive music, of any genre has
a) rhythm which communicates most directly to the body, lesserly to the emotions and intellect
b) melody which communicates primarily to the emotions, and also intellect
c) harmony which communicates primarily to the emotions, and also intellect
d) form which communicates to the intellect and emotions




How can harmony communicate with the intellect? When notes are played simultaneously or in succession, they sound harmonious or discordant at face value; there isn't any intermediary processing before the listener decides its harmonious. I see melody as a path that teases between harmony and discord. This is just how I see it. I am not a professional musician though, can you provide additional insight?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Epigallo]
    #9357564 - 12/03/08 12:14 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Music is the shit. That is my philosophy on music. :shrug:

It's all about IDM for me personally. Venetian Snares, Clark, Devine, Aphex twin, Tipper, Vibert, Wisp, U-ziq, Bola, Telefon Tel Aviv, Bonobo, Exile, Flashbulb, iTAL tEK, Squarepusher, Jaga Jazzist etc.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9357602 - 12/03/08 12:19 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yes true, haven't you ever wondered why its the shit?


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9357635 - 12/03/08 12:22 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Music transcends philosophy :wink:


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9357659 - 12/03/08 12:26 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Aren't you forgetting Amon Tobin?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSalted_Ape
Stranger
Male

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 27
Loc: Boulder, CO
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9357770 - 12/03/08 12:41 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Music transcends philosophy :wink:


Rock on.


About animals enjoying music the same way we do, I don't know any.  But since I can't explain why, or find a solid explanation why, we like music at all in the first place, I think it's appealing to that animalistic, primitive, intuitive, inexpressible side of us.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemr_kite
The Watcher
Male


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Epigallo]
    #9357941 - 12/03/08 01:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:

How can harmony communicate with the intellect? When notes are played simultaneously or in succession, they sound harmonious or discordant at face value; there isn't any intermediary processing before the listener decides its harmonious. I see melody as a path that teases between harmony and discord. This is just how I see it. I am not a professional musician though, can you provide additional insight?




Harmonic sequences. Some harmonic (or chord) sequences make sense on a level similar to maths. Obviously it's primarily emotional but if you look into figured bass and such its quite an intellectual pursuit


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: mr_kite]
    #9358001 - 12/03/08 01:06 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

An intellectual pursuit to compose, or to listen to?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Epigallo]
    #9358012 - 12/03/08 01:07 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Aren't you forgetting Amon Tobin?




I knew there was something, Foley Room tripping is so damn epic.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemr_kite
The Watcher
Male


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Epigallo]
    #9358036 - 12/03/08 01:12 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Both...but this usually requires a level of training or the development of natural ability. Some people have an instinct for it, kind of like maths I guess.

A good example is being to improvise an accompaniment to a tune, if you have the ability you "hear" a sequence in your head. Figured bass is realising chords in an improvisatory style from a series of "figures" (eg 5,3) written under the melody, it originated in baroque.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineC.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Male


Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9360831 - 12/03/08 07:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The most popular music is at 60-120 beats per min. The answer to this question is simple. Check your pulse then check your music.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9361040 - 12/03/08 07:33 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

What is your source for this? I'm just interested in learning more about it.

And what exactly is a "beat"? If the drums go "Boom tss tss Boom tss tss..." does the beat repeat at each "Boom"? In other words, is the frequency of a beat equal to the number of times a drumline repeats per minute?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetempingasashaman
\\\\\\\\////////\\\\\\\\
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,374
Loc: under the rainbow
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Epigallo]
    #9362194 - 12/03/08 10:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

count it up.

Every song has a repetition of some sorts, (except Pyramid Song by Radiohead) and it repeats every so often, usually (never always) in 4 counts. With these four counts that is a measure. Tempo is based on each click, not the measure.

Tap your feet to some music, count how many taps in a minute and you will get tempo.


--------------------
the greatest use of life is to spend it on something that will outlast it

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: tempingasashaman]
    #9362295 - 12/03/08 10:18 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

What about Moonchild by King Crimson? It seems like a pretty accessible and likable song, but the beat sounds like its around 35-40 beats per minute...really slow. I don't hear 4 counts, not sure what that means.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetempingasashaman
\\\\\\\\////////\\\\\\\\
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,374
Loc: under the rainbow
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Epigallo]
    #9362359 - 12/03/08 10:27 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

With King Crimson I would be amazed if you found 4 counts in a measure.

That is a creative band, haha fuck don't try to count them, try some electronic stuff.

I think that song is a little over 70 beats/min, and the beginning is 4/4.


--------------------
the greatest use of life is to spend it on something that will outlast it

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: tempingasashaman]
    #9362417 - 12/03/08 10:34 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Oops, I meant to paste the video. 70 bpm? no way.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblederanger
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9362456 - 12/03/08 10:41 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Tipper




Tipper live is pure amazing :grin: good times.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetempingasashaman
\\\\\\\\////////\\\\\\\\
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,374
Loc: under the rainbow
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Epigallo]
    #9362625 - 12/03/08 11:05 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I would put it around +70 bpm

while listening to it tap you hand and count, 1, 2, 3, 4, and repeat it and you will get it. Start when the guitar part repeats itself.

35 bpm is reeeeally slow


--------------------
the greatest use of life is to spend it on something that will outlast it

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMokshaIs
everywhereeverpresent


Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 476
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: tempingasashaman]
    #9363174 - 12/04/08 12:44 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Music is God

lila

birds sing

the howl

the call

Music
  its in the silence



'space is the place'


--------------------
in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetempingasashaman
\\\\\\\\////////\\\\\\\\
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,374
Loc: under the rainbow
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: MokshaIs]
    #9363271 - 12/04/08 01:14 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

:lol:
at him spinning


--------------------
the greatest use of life is to spend it on something that will outlast it

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsilyguy
 User Gallery
Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 3,305
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: MokshaIs]
    #9363274 - 12/04/08 01:16 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I think music could be scientifically engineered in a way that certain frequencies in certain rythms could upset the very atoms of the matter recieving those vibrations in a way that could convert that matter into energy. this could open up the doors for teleportation, time travel, higher consciousness, etc.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: psilyguy]
    #9363667 - 12/04/08 04:09 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

geez...

this thread = fail.

for example: psilyguy... "noise" or vibrations are propagated through things like atoms. a vacuum cannot have sound in it for this reason. your theory is kind of like saying that one day we will make a flashlight so powerful that it disrupts individual photons.

as for the rest of you, I think you all should have started out making a distinction between music and songs. The OP started out with a  very myopic question. to categorize music as being solely pleasurable or good is ignoring about 90% of emotion... and that is the difference between music and song, and the core of why most of you are "into music" and merely purveyors of entertainment for purposes of distraction.
sure you say song X and artist Y speak to your soul... its because you have no depth and think that the string of cliches and abundance of vague pronouns is the outline of your complex world that has been sorely misunderstood until this moment.

IMO, the term music has been misused forever... it isnt a noun, it is a verb just like the word "paint" (which I know is also a noun). just as a painter uses the refraction of light upon different materials to create a painting, a musician uses the reverberation and resonance of different materials to create music.
there was a thread that veritas once made a long time ago which was titled something like "show a picture of beauty" where people posted frogs and rainbows and lush meadows. I posted a picture of a shotgun suicide which made many people very upset.
I dont think I need to delve into the semantics of subjective perception and whatnot but it wasnt about trying to get people to see the beauty in that picture, but rather to appreciate the horrific and confront it with awe.

music, or art for that matter, is one persons use of alternate mediums of communication (a transcendence of linear, direct, verbal explanation) to cause the audience to so deeply and wholly understand their idea/vision/reality that there is no subjective perception.
it is merely saying "I want you to know what I know".

but to fully answer the OP's question... shouldnt you be asking why you dont find the tempo and rhythm of everyday noise and sounds to be music?
is the live sound of a gunshot not a transcendence of verbal communication that instills profound and instant cognition as well as evokes strong emotions?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemr_kite
The Watcher
Male


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #9363689 - 12/04/08 04:25 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
geez...

this thread = fail.

for example: psilyguy... "noise" or vibrations are propagated through things like atoms. a vacuum cannot have sound in it for this reason. your theory is kind of like saying that one day we will make a flashlight so powerful that it disrupts individual photons.

as for the rest of you, I think you all should have started out making a distinction between music and songs. The OP started out with a  very myopic question. to categorize music as being solely pleasurable or good is ignoring about 90% of emotion... and that is the difference between music and song, and the core of why most of you are "into music" and merely purveyors of entertainment for purposes of distraction.
sure you say song X and artist Y speak to your soul... its because you have no depth and think that the string of cliches and abundance of vague pronouns is the outline of your complex world that has been sorely misunderstood until this moment.

IMO, the term music has been misused forever... it isnt a noun, it is a verb just like the word "paint" (which I know is also a noun). just as a painter uses the refraction of light upon different materials to create a painting, a musician uses the reverberation and resonance of different materials to create music.
there was a thread that veritas once made a long time ago which was titled something like "show a picture of beauty" where people posted frogs and rainbows and lush meadows. I posted a picture of a shotgun suicide which made many people very upset.
I dont think I need to delve into the semantics of subjective perception and whatnot but it wasnt about trying to get people to see the beauty in that picture, but rather to appreciate the horrific and confront it with awe.

music, or art for that matter, is one persons use of alternate mediums of communication (a transcendence of linear, direct, verbal explanation) to cause the audience to so deeply and wholly understand their idea/vision/reality that there is no subjective perception.
it is merely saying "I want you to know what I know".

but to fully answer the OP's question... shouldnt you be asking why you dont find the tempo and rhythm of everyday noise and sounds to be music?
is the live sound of a gunshot not a transcendence of verbal communication that instills profound and instant cognition as well as evokes strong emotions?




Let's keep it impersonal, please. ~V

music ...is one persons use of alternate mediums of communication (a transcendence of linear, direct, verbal explanation) to cause the audience to so deeply and wholly understand their idea/vision/reality that there is no subjective perception. it is merely saying "I want you to know what I know".

Maybe sometimes. But then there's the idea that the performer should let the music speak for itself as the composer intended, not impose their own personality on it. And then there's the other angle that a concert is entertainment, much like seeing a good movie or play, it's a theatrical performance also. So music is different things to different to different people, and thank fucking god cos itd get a bit boring if all musiians had the same ideas.

and IMO, the term music has been misused forever...it isnt a noun, it is a verb
It's a noun...check with any source anywhere


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

Edited by Veritas (12/04/08 09:35 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: mr_kite]
    #9363719 - 12/04/08 04:46 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Let's keep it impersonal, please. ~V

I just have barely visited the shroomery over the last few months.

Quote:

But then there's the idea that the performer should let the music speak for itself as the composer intended, not impose their own personality on it.




how can you create something without leaving an air or mark of your personality on it?

also, entertainment isnt music. music can be entertaining, but music and entertainment are two seperate things with overlapping moments. entertainment is its own art form.
wearing masks and headbanging isnt music. costumes are not music. stage antics are not music.
im all for the combination of mediums, but lets not start thinking music is fags in tight clothes and makeup rhyming words.

and yeah, you are right... i do "totally know music". I could rattle off a resume of immersion in almost every aspect dealing with music from learning psychoacoustics and building professional high grade studios to touring the country with major acts.

Edited by Veritas (12/04/08 09:36 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemr_kite
The Watcher
Male


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #9363743 - 12/04/08 05:06 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Let's keep it impersonal, please. ~V

Quote:

how can you create something without leaving an air or mark of your personality on it?




I guess Im talking classical music more than other genres here; some artists make it their aim to analyse the score and put across their view of exactly what the composer was hearing. Of course that means it is also from their personality, as they make the decisions, but its something different to what you said. Then you have other artists for whom its all about the ego trip and making them look sexy and they pay far less attention to teh composers direction other than the notes.

Quote:

also, entertainment isnt music. music can be entertaining, but music and entertainment are two seperate things with overlapping moments. entertainment is its own art form.
wearing masks and headbanging isnt music. costumes are not music. stage antics are not music.
im all for the combination of mediums, but lets not start thinking music is fags in tight clothes and makeup rhyming words.




Basically what you're saying is you believe your interpretation of music to be higher and more profound than other people's. How high do you go? What music do you like? I say music is different things to different people and essentially it is organised sound; just because its not profound doesnt mean its not music.

Quote:

and yeah, you are right... i do "totally know music". I could rattle off a resume of immersion in almost every aspect dealing with music from learning psychoacoustics and building professional high grade studios to touring the country with major acts.





:shocked: I've been a gigging musician for the last 7 years, predominantly orchestra ad chamber music but also with bands, session and studio work. I studied for 6 years in a great college. I have my own opinions and so do you.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

Edited by Veritas (12/04/08 09:37 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: mr_kite]
    #9363928 - 12/04/08 06:37 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

underaroof said:
With King Crimson I would be amazed if you found 4 counts in a measure.

That is a creative band, haha fuck don't try to count them, try some electronic stuff.

I think that song is a little over 70 beats/min, and the beginning is 4/4.




Let's not be forgetting that things such as "measures" and "beats per minute" are nothing more than an arbitrary distinction that we humans make. The same notes could be half notes at 80bpm or whole notes at 160bpm. The same section of musikk could be said to be in 3/4 instead of 4/4 - it simply is a way that musicians organize their sense of how a song is divided into smaller parts in order to make them be able to play it or express it in written notation more efficiently, the only difference is where whoever decides to draw a line to create a new bar. The musikk itself is sound - not measures or bars or beats per minute. Regarding what someone had said earlier and tying it with what you're saying now, the idea of the bpm of all musikk being within the range of the heart is pretty bogus when it is possible to transcribe anything into that range of bpm, and the idea that people listen to their favorite musikk because the bpm matches their own heart beat is completely baseless as a result of all this. Sure, you could say that a lot of psy-trance is 70bpm and a lot of metal 80bpm, but if you are actually working with these genres (of which many people base the entirety of their personal, musical tastes), you'd know it is actually 140bpm and 160bpm that the songs are considered to be in because it is a better tempo with which to organize the sequence or composition. Obviously, you could put a song from 160bpm into 80bpm, but then all of what were sixteenth notes are now thirty-second notes, and that quickly becomes a mess to transcribe. :smirk:

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
wearing masks and headbanging isnt music.





No, but if these people who are wearing masks and headbanging happen to be playing instruments or doing such stuff with prerecorded music playing, then the sounds that are being produced would be musikk. To continue with the rest of your statement, stage antics aren't music, but the sounds being played while stage antics are occurring is musikk.
I don't see any rational explanation as to why homosexuals wearing tight clothes and makeup who are rhyming words necessarily equates into no musikk being performed.
Of course, I agree with what you were originally saying regarding entertainment and musikk, in that aspects of the stage show isn't actually the musikk, even though musikk itself can be entertaining in and of itself, but parts and especially the last part really smelled of baseless elitism. :grin:

Quote:

mr_kite said:
a) rhythm which communicates most directly to the body, lesserly to the emotions and intellect
b) melody which communicates primarily to the emotions, and also intellect
c) harmony which communicates primarily to the emotions, and also intellect
d) form which communicates to the intellect and emotions




I'm sorry, but I don't see any basis to the conclusions you've drawn regarding how each aspect relates with the individual. I can think of dozens of examples in which each of those facets have "communicated" to any and all of "emotions", "intellect", and "the body", although I'm not quite sure precisely what you mean by form. How exactly have you determined that rhythm "communicates most directly" to the body, moreso than melody or harmony, or that rhythm doesn't intrigue and speak to the intellect? I'm really confused as to how you've determined that harmony aspires more towards "emotions and intellect" instead of the body, especially considering how well you can feel physically the relationships between the different notes of a harmony quite well. In fact, the degree to which any aspect of the body "communicates" with the body, IMO, would vary pretty much on the volume and capabilities of the source of the sounds, or, IME, whether specific sounds are coming from the right, lower frequencies that will resonate with one's body in a very perceivable way, keeping in mind that rhythm itself is in no way bound to these frequencies (even though they are usually represented by, for example, bass and drums). I think this reinforces my earlier point regarding harmony, considering the huge role that the bass guitar (or other stuff coming from the same register) plays in tying together the rhythm and the harmony/melody.

I just don't think it was necessary for you to try to break it down into categories because I feel that each of those characteristics apply pretty equally to any of the elements that comprise what we consider to be musikk; I wasn't being critical. As a matter of fact, I'd love to learn more about your perspective on it, because that was an impressive resume for both you and psilocyberin. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleArden
לנשום


Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω Flag
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9364016 - 12/04/08 07:06 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Book:

Musicophilia: Tales of Music and the Brain
http://www.amazon.com/Musicophilia-Tales-Music-Oliver-Sacks/dp/1400040817

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Arden]
    #9364238 - 12/04/08 08:15 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Basically what you're saying is you believe your interpretation of music to be higher and more profound than other people's.

This isn't what he's saying, regardless of how he's saying it. He's saying music and entertainment overlap, the stage antics and all the attention to the performer is the entertainment, while what you hear is the music. I agree that they are seperate things that come together, because if I'm going to be pregaming for this show, man, then there better be fire or some shit y'know?:tongue2:


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Edited by Bernackums (12/04/08 08:16 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetempingasashaman
\\\\\\\\////////\\\\\\\\
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,374
Loc: under the rainbow
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9365166 - 12/04/08 11:36 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

underaroof said:
With King Crimson I would be amazed if you found 4 counts in a measure.

That is a creative band, haha fuck don't try to count them, try some electronic stuff.

I think that song is a little over 70 beats/min, and the beginning is 4/4.




Let's not be forgetting that things such as "measures" and "beats per minute" are nothing more than an arbitrary distinction that we humans make. The same notes could be half notes at 80bpm or whole notes at 160bpm. The same section of musikk could be said to be in 3/4 instead of 4/4 - it simply is a way that musicians organize their sense of how a song is divided into smaller parts in order to make them be able to play it or express it in written notation more efficiently, the only difference is where whoever decides to draw a line to create a new bar. The musikk itself is sound - not measures or bars or beats per minute. Regarding what someone had said earlier and tying it with what you're saying now, the idea of the bpm of all musikk being within the range of the heart is pretty bogus when it is possible to transcribe anything into that range of bpm, and the idea that people listen to their favorite musikk because the bpm matches their own heart beat is completely baseless as a result of all this. Sure, you could say that a lot of psy-trance is 70bpm and a lot of metal 80bpm, but if you are actually working with these genres (of which many people base the entirety of their personal, musical tastes), you'd know it is actually 140bpm and 160bpm that the songs are considered to be in because it is a better tempo with which to organize the sequence or composition. Obviously, you could put a song from 160bpm into 80bpm, but then all of what were sixteenth notes are now thirty-second notes, and that quickly becomes a mess to transcribe. :smirk:



well yeah man if you want to make it more complicated. I was just introducing the whole idea to someone who doesn't know anything about written music.

I play music too  :super:


--------------------
the greatest use of life is to spend it on something that will outlast it

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: tempingasashaman]
    #9365665 - 12/04/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, well in that case that extra foot-tap in Moonchild feels completely unnatural.

35 bpm :kingcrankey:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Epigallo]
    #9365692 - 12/04/08 01:01 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

nevermind, I can see it now

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Arden]
    #9365708 - 12/04/08 01:03 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Arden said:
Book:

Musicophilia: Tales of Music and the Brain
http://www.amazon.com/Musicophilia-Tales-Music-Oliver-Sacks/dp/1400040817




I've read this too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemr_kite
The Watcher
Male


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9366113 - 12/04/08 02:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

mr_kite said:
a) rhythm which communicates most directly to the body, lesserly to the emotions and intellect
b) melody which communicates primarily to the emotions, and also intellect
c) harmony which communicates primarily to the emotions, and also intellect
d) form which communicates to the intellect and emotions




I can think of dozens of examples in which each of those facets have "communicated" to any and all of "emotions", "intellect", and "the body", although I'm not quite sure precisely what you mean by form.




To an extent yes there are examples, and thats why I said "most directly/primarily" "lesserly" and didnt talk about "exclusively". Then you could ask me where does the body end and mind/intellect begin.....but although these are generalisations I do find them to have truth and be interesting, certainly when considering how to perform a piece. By form I meant how the composer has structured the piece, a very simple example being "ternary form" A-B-A: first bit followed by contratsing middle bit then a reprise of the first bit. And for example what I said about rhythm and the body wasnt to do with vibrations/loudness etc, its the way it gets you up dancing/your foot tapping, that's the rhythm, not the melody/harmony etc.

Quote:


I just don't think it was necessary for you to try to break it down into categories because I feel that each of those characteristics apply pretty equally to any of the elements that comprise what we consider to be musikk



It wasnt necessary but as I said Ive been thinking a lot about it lately and I disagree that the the characteristics apply equally to each "element". However further discussion is difficult unless we take a specific example in depth......also I believe what I said is probably more true of classical music than other genres; as the level of depth and expression in *great* classical music is on a whole other level than other genres IMO (:eek: ooops have I just opened a huge can of worms??)


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Epigallo]
    #9366277 - 12/04/08 03:10 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Okay, well in that case that extra foot-tap in Moonchild feels completely unnatural.

35 bpm :kingcrankey:




Moonchild is super natural. :thumbup: First album I tripped to.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: deranger]
    #9366544 - 12/04/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Tipper




Tipper live is pure amazing :grin: good times.




Still haven't seen him clark was the best thing i've seen so far. Seeing him at BLOC in 3 months though, can't wait. I :heart: Funktion1. Raving is the shit, nothing really beats it :grin:.

Utopia would be a massive rave island.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetempingasashaman
\\\\\\\\////////\\\\\\\\
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,374
Loc: under the rainbow
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Epigallo]
    #9370197 - 12/05/08 01:21 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Okay, well in that case that extra foot-tap in Moonchild feels completely unnatural.

35 bpm :kingcrankey:


35+35=70 :smile: we are on the same wavelength fo sho. The difference is what we are counting at. You were counting something like quarter notes or half notes, and I was counting to either eighth notes or quarter notes. Its really just your perspective


--------------------
the greatest use of life is to spend it on something that will outlast it

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Philosophy of Music [Re: Icelander]
    #9371268 - 12/05/08 09:56 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
A beautiful piece of music. In fact my favorite of the Beach Boys.




This was my favorite song when I was a little kid. :thumbup:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Philosophy Music tomk 510 1 01/09/05 01:48 AM
by Moonshoe
* a long story about drugs and philosophy. Madtowntripper 2,927 7 10/11/04 02:49 PM
by Todcasil
* Philosophy: Who needs it?
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 3,882 24 05/27/08 06:51 AM
by zouden
* Really, what exactly is an "intellectual?" MOTH 1,219 13 02/23/04 07:00 AM
by falcon
* Intellect WIll Not Solve Our Problems chodamunky 1,361 18 05/05/03 03:02 AM
by Strumpling
* drugs...too self aware...intellectual confusion..need advice
( 1 2 all )
kapowsin 4,570 31 09/19/03 07:58 PM
by silversoul7
* Problems in Philosophy: Knowledge chodamunky 1,075 3 05/03/04 08:38 AM
by TheShroomHermit
* A tribute to all the intellectuals of the Shroomery!
( 1 2 all )
daba 2,160 20 02/22/04 01:43 PM
by SpecialEd

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,542 topic views. 1 members, 10 guests and 26 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.041 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 14 queries.