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InvisibleAdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One

Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 337
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
Ever Tried Storing Dried Mushrooms w/ Oxygen Scavengers?
    #9319756 - 11/26/08 10:16 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I was wondering.  In knowing how there seems to be quite a few people interested in testing their samples for active compounds, and in knowing how the active compounds are often degraded by exposure to oxygen, has anyone thought of storing their dried mushrooms with oxygen scavengers? 

An oxygen scavenger isn't something that is hard to get or expensive.  It just has to be something that readily reacts to atmospheric oxygen and binds tightly to it.  Finely divided metal like powdered iron or powdered magnesium will do the trick.  It just needs to be sealed in an air permeable bag like tyvek.

Has anyone tried this before?


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There is no such thing as a dumb question.  There are just curious people trying to learn something new. 

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Offlinelibertaire
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 4,204
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Ever Tried Storing Dried Mushrooms w/ Oxygen Scavengers? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
    #9319925 - 11/26/08 10:58 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Hm, this would be useful in the tread right below about the most efficient way to store psilocybin.  It seems like it would be useful, from everything I'm using, definitely worth looking into.

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InvisibleAdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One

Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 337
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
Re: Ever Tried Storing Dried Mushrooms w/ Oxygen Scavengers? [Re: libertaire]
    #9320030 - 11/26/08 11:32 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

libertaire said:
Hm, this would be useful in the tread right below about the most efficient way to store psilocybin.  It seems like it would be useful, from everything I'm using, definitely worth looking into.




I haven't read all of the thread that was started earlier, but I know there are a number of strategies to storing compounds that are oxygen sensitive and light sensitive.  I believe there has to be some balance between storing it cheaply and effectively but still being easily accessible.  In my humble opinion, I believe the best way is to store dried mushrooms is in an air tight and light tight container, with a packets of silica gel and powdered iron, and stored in a freezer at sub-freezing temperatures.  Of course one can take it a step further by storing it under an inert gas like helium taken from a party balloon, but that becomes really cumbersome in re-establishing the helium atmosphere each time one needs to retrieve some mushrooms.

In the laboratory setting, I can see a researcher going through a lot of trouble to ensure the stability of reference samples.  As more people attempt to test for the active compounds, they are going to reference their current samples against those previously taken.  If their reference samples continue to degrade in storage, each successive generation may appear erroneously more potent than the previous generation sampled. Hence the need for an ideal method to maintain the stability reference samples.


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There is no such thing as a dumb question.  There are just curious people trying to learn something new. 

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InvisibleR10tGuNn3r

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 674
Re: Ever Tried Storing Dried Mushrooms w/ Oxygen Scavengers? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
    #9320061 - 11/26/08 11:41 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

i still think the degradation occurs during the drying process.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/9316875/an/0/page/0

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InvisibleAdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One

Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 337
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
Re: Ever Tried Storing Dried Mushrooms w/ Oxygen Scavengers? [Re: R10tGuNn3r]
    #9321769 - 11/27/08 11:41 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Freeze Drying Mushrooms

I know from searching the data base that there are previous discussions on freeze drying the mushrooms.  There are essentially two ways, the fast way, and the slow way. 

To freeze dry the fast way, there are commercially available freeze dryers that literally freeze the specimens and then places them under a high vacuum which causes the frozen water to sublimate, or to turn directly from ice to water vapor.  The major advantage is that it is fast and is a time tested procedure used in laboratories and the food industry. The draw back to this process is the high cost of the freeze drier.  They run from about $400 and up.  They are also quite heavy too.  Paying for the cost of the freeze dryer is one thing.  However, paying for shipping and handling may be a whole another matter.

I’ve also looked into the possibility of building my own freeze dryer.  I bought a vacuum pump that can pull of vacuum of around five microns of mercury.  The pump itself was relatively cheap at $200 plus shipping.  Even though the vacuum pump can pull a high vacuum, it’s not designed for continuous operation.  My setup is designed more for lyophilizing small tissue samples of mycelium in glass ampoules for long-term storage.  It can’t handle whole mushrooms.  Building a setup that can freeze dry whole mushrooms may be more costly than buying a freeze dyer that's been commercially made.

To freeze dry the slow way, one can freeze the mushrooms then place them in an air tight container packed with silica gel and an oxygen scavenger.  The silica gel will absorb the moisture and the oxygen scavenger will bind to the free oxygen.  The advantages to this method are the components are readily available, relatively cheap, and light weight.  The major disadvantage would be that it is time consuming.  I’ve used silica gel many times before to dry flowers and other botanical specimens this way.  However, in knowing that mushrooms carry a lot more water in its tissue compared to flowers, even though silica gel can absorb a lot of water, it may take several attempts at replacing the saturated silica gel with fresh silica gel to completely dry a single mushroom. 

I think what’s needed is someone to run tests on freeze drying the mushrooms and compare its potency to air dried mushrooms to see if freeze drying really does retain the potency of the active compounds.  Others tests could also be done to see if an oxygen scavenger really does help to reduce degradation.  While I’ve already bought some powdered iron in hopes of making my own oxygen scavengers, I have a feeling that the oxygen scavenger really helps only for long-term storage. 


Oxygen scavengers and Oxygen Indicators
http://www.cwaller.de/english.htm?oxygen.htm~information


Freeze Dryers
http://www.freezedryco.com/index.html


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There is no such thing as a dumb question.  There are just curious people trying to learn something new. 

Edited by AdoreChampignons (11/27/08 01:28 PM)

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Invisibleshroomophile
ShroomitusFidelis
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Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 762
Loc: USA
Re: Ever Tried Storing Dried Mushrooms w/ Oxygen Scavengers? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
    #9323496 - 11/27/08 06:32 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I take my cracker dry shrooms and use  a vacuum sealer.No O2 left to screw with them.


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Once the mighty oak,was a nut who held his ground.

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InvisibleAdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One

Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 337
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
Re: Ever Tried Storing Dried Mushrooms w/ Oxygen Scavengers? [Re: shroomophile]
    #9325212 - 11/28/08 12:08 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shroomophile said:
I take my cracker dry shrooms and use  a vacuum sealer.No O2 left to screw with them.




Yes, I agree.  That should work too.


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There is no such thing as a dumb question.  There are just curious people trying to learn something new. 

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OfflineEmperor Reishi
Student of Wisdom
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Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 145
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Ever Tried Storing Dried Mushrooms w/ Oxygen Scavengers? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
    #9342484 - 12/01/08 07:32 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I saw that it was discussed in the pass occassionally, but I think fermentation more (or less mushrrom wine) would be a preferable storage method. I brew Wine 5 gallons at a time, now I dunno if you would be brewing mushroom wine in that quantity but hey :tongue2:

The fermentation process is very low to no oxygen, and actually I brew soda as well. Now soda would be an even better method because it is quicker and easier if you are going to consume within 6 months to a year. if you would like to store indefinitely you would need the wine method because the alcohol combined with the oxygen free environment would preserve it.

If anybody has pros or cons to this method please tell me. Also, if anyone would like a recipe or method to make wine or soda like this tell me here or PM me.


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EmperoR ReishI

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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Registered: 03/26/03
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Re: Ever Tried Storing Dried Mushrooms w/ Oxygen Scavengers? (moved) [Re: AdoreChampignons]
    #9342810 - 12/01/08 09:33 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

This thread was moved from Advanced Mycology.

Reason:
I've long recommended vacuum sealing with an oxygen absorber and a food grade silica gel packet in each package of mushrooms.  I've kept them for many years this way with no noticeable degradation.

I'll move this to Psychedelic Experience.  It's off topic in advanced mycology.
RR

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Offlinelibertaire
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Registered: 08/06/08
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Re: Ever Tried Storing Dried Mushrooms w/ Oxygen Scavengers? (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9343832 - 12/01/08 12:46 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I don't really see how this would pertain to an experience of any sort, or why your previous recommendation of something is a reason to move it...but ok. 

Also, this idea is something I haven't heard mentioned very often, and this is one of the very few threads here that actually mentions it(this one being the only one that actually uses the phrase "oxygen scavenger").  I would think it to be some good information to spread.  I'm not saying it belongs in advanced, but I don't think the experience makes much sense either.

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