Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore Injection Grain Bag   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian?
    #9338415 - 11/30/08 04:24 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Let's ignore environmental and health issues for now, and just consider the immediate pain and or suffering that may be caused by killing any species.

How conscious an organism is at least roughly corresponds to how complex it is. As we move up the biological hierarchy, there are increasing sensing structures and neuronal structures. Human brains basically include and supersede all mammalian brains, all mammalian brains include and supersede reptilian brains, etc.

Instinctively, we value more complex organisms; given the choice, we will kill a cockroach before a koala bear.

So, the choice is whether to kill a few complex (and more conscious) organisms, or a much greater number of less complex organisms. Which is more ethical? I think it boils down to efficiency.

In order to convert grass or grain energy into meat energy, a huge amount of energy is lost in the conversion as body heat, body movements, waste, etc. So the ethics scale tips towards the vegetarian diet.

Do you agree?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9338435 - 11/30/08 04:27 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Over-population is what causes the ethical problem not an omnivorous diet. Omnivourous diets are natural and healthy.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineiamconfused
Happily insane since '06

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 589
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9338472 - 11/30/08 04:33 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The stake on my plate says no. But seriously, a vegetarian diet makes the most logical sense for our planet and our continued survival as the world population explodes. Meat is biologically inefficient to mass produce and the methane gas (a greenhouse gas) produced by domesticated cows alone is actually becoming a major, largely unspoken, problem. And gee, I wonder why.

But, it seems we keep doing the same thing, because we're used to it, and for now, it still works. We don't stop until we hit a wall and it crashes on top of us. That's just how we live. I keep eating meat because it's cheap and it's constantly in front of my face, even though I know the logic behind it (it's cheap and an easy way to get a lot of my dietary needs) is not a logical process that works for the world. It's the kind of logic that applies to a person that lives in a society where everything is mass produced and arrives in giant box stores in constant supplies.

The problem is that a lot of us live like that is the whole world. It's not. I'm working on changing, but I'm failing currently, so I really can't fault anyone else.

Edited by iamconfused (11/30/08 04:34 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9338475 - 11/30/08 04:34 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Omnivourous diets are natural and healthy.




Way to stay on topic.

Quote:

Over-population is what causes the ethical problem not an omnivorous diet.




What do you mean?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9338477 - 11/30/08 04:34 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Agreed. I still cannot fathom how many pigs or chickens we kill each day. Cows too. And anything else you can deep fry.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9338686 - 11/30/08 05:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Carbs are directly linked to diabetes not protein. What does this tell us?

Cigarettes are made out of ?

A. Meat
B. Vegetable matter

You now have your answer.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9339426 - 11/30/08 06:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Carbs are directly linked to diabetes not protein. What does this tell us?

Cigarettes are made out of ?

A. Meat
B. Vegetable matter

You now have your answer.




Did you fail to understand the focus of the thread?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCoaster
Baʿal
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
Loc: Deep in the Valley
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9339694 - 11/30/08 07:34 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

its wrong to kill things that want to be alive.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9339732 - 11/30/08 07:40 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Let's ignore environmental and health issues for now,

In order to convert grass or grain energy into meat energy, a huge amount of energy is lost in the conversion as body heat, body movements, waste, etc. So the ethics scale tips towards the vegetarian diet.




I'm not sure you do. Ignoring environmental issues then making an environmental issue (energy conservation) a centerpiece of your argument does not compute.

As to creatures suffering, I guess human suffering (from consuming plants) does not count, eh?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Coaster]
    #9339751 - 11/30/08 07:43 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I agree. Now show that chickens want to be alive.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Coaster]
    #9339893 - 11/30/08 08:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
its wrong to kill things that want to be alive.




Two things.

Tell that to the carnivores.

How do you know that plants don't want to be alive?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblezannennagara
Found in Space
Male


Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Coaster]
    #9339900 - 11/30/08 08:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
its wrong to kill things that want to be alive.




Self-preservation is a drive of all biological lifeforms, not just animals. Just because plants can't visibly respond to death in the same way as animals - which behave more like us - doesn't mean that their drive is any less interrupted.


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: zannennagara]
    #9339947 - 11/30/08 08:07 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's really naughty for carnivorous plants to eat bugs.:hissyfit:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9339982 - 11/30/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I lost my pinky in the Amazon to a particularly nasty Venus Fly trap.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9340234 - 11/30/08 08:42 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Let's ignore environmental and health issues for now,

In order to convert grass or grain energy into meat energy, a huge amount of energy is lost in the conversion as body heat, body movements, waste, etc. So the ethics scale tips towards the vegetarian diet.




I'm not sure you do. Ignoring environmental issues then making an environmental issue (energy conservation) a centerpiece of your argument does not compute.





My use of energy efficiency was to demonstrate the impact we have on the consciousness of other species. If consciousness is what we value, and consciousness is roughly correlated with biological complexity, then from loss of efficiency it follows that eating animals destroys more consciousness than eating plants, thus, the ethical sway.

Quote:


As to creatures suffering, I guess human suffering (from consuming plants) does not count, eh?




The point of this thread was to just analyze the ethics in relation to other species. We could bring tons of elements into the issue, but I think there is merit in examining each individual element, and then evaluating their synergy.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9340321 - 11/30/08 08:53 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

My use of energy efficiency was to demonstrate the impact we have on the consciousness of other species. If consciousness is what we value, and consciousness is roughly correlated with biological complexity, then from loss of efficiency it follows that eating animals destroys more consciousness than eating plants, thus, the ethical sway.





Uh huh. How many beef cattle would likely exist if everyone was a vegetarian?

Would we not then have less cattle and less complexity?

Try again.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9340466 - 11/30/08 09:23 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

If you consider the net complexity on the earth, who knows, it could fluctuate either way. But humans would personally be extinguishing less complexity in other species.

Now, the question you bring up is: can the biological complexity we extinguish be offset by what we introduce? I think the answer is no; remember, we are only evaluating the advantage or detriment to nonhuman species. Each organism has a drive to stay alive; it avoids pain and death if possible. But, when we raise cattle it is born because of our drives.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9340494 - 11/30/08 09:27 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

But, when we raise cattle it is born because of our drives.




:sheepfucker:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9340553 - 11/30/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Nice rebutthole.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9340584 - 11/30/08 09:41 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Don't sass me! :nono:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore Injection Grain Bag   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* vegetarianism - dietary practices
( 1 2 3 4 all )
raytrace 5,004 60 03/05/02 03:14 PM
by raytrace
* Vegetarian Animals CherryBomM 1,926 17 12/13/03 12:13 PM
by fireworks_god
* Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
DiploidM 10,068 137 10/31/06 10:02 AM
by Veritas
* Spirituality and Diet
( 1 2 3 4 all )
dmtrypr 5,078 72 12/02/04 02:40 PM
by shanti
* Vegetarianism etc
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
demiu5 7,855 131 09/29/06 07:24 PM
by The_Hobbit
* vegetarian?
( 1 2 all )
fake estate 2,974 33 12/21/07 11:34 AM
by Veritas
* Becoming a vegetarian
( 1 2 all )
lysergicide 3,070 26 02/03/06 06:11 PM
by Ekstaza
* Plant based diet
( 1 2 3 all )
reflectedlight 4,626 59 10/15/03 08:38 AM
by hongomon

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
7,535 topic views. 3 members, 3 guests and 17 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.025 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.