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InvisibleVSOPXO
Cognacaholic

Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 1,751
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Xlea321]
    #935936 - 10/06/02 03:55 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

What we're discussing is whether airbags reduce the accident rate. All the scientific evidence ever done and every expert studying the subject shows that they don't. That's good enough for me.




You were the one swearing a spike was safest because "experts" said it was right. okay, but if's the safest option do you have a spike in your steering wheel. That IS what we're discussing seeing as everyone wants you to answer this since you fucking preach it. Your avoiding the question, do you have a foot long steel spike sticking out of your steering wheel? i'll bet you $50 you change the subject or don't answer.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: VSOPXO]
    #936025 - 10/06/02 05:53 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

How old are you son? This is like talking to a three year old.

The point about the spike is that it is making the point that adding safety additions to a car makes people drive more dangerously.

You obviously arn't old enough to drive, but when you are you'll understand.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleVSOPXO
Cognacaholic

Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 1,751
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Xlea321]
    #936032 - 10/06/02 06:07 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

How old are you son? This is like talking to a three year old.
The point about the spike is that it is making the point that adding safety additions to a car makes people drive more dangerously.
You obviously arn't old enough to drive, but when you are you'll understand.




son? I'm a grown damn man.I can probably drive way better than your ass if your advocating steel spikes. Ask anyone here who is acting like a three year old. YOU .You say you believe anything "experts" say, but when I say if the FDA "experts" said arsenic was safer than a carrot then i wouldn't believe them you say thats stupid and I'm stupid for thinking that because their fucking experts . That in itself shows you what kind of level your on. You're about as quick as a snail headed uphill. No need to argue with you, it's like trying sing a song to a deaf man.


Edited by VSOPXO (10/06/02 06:14 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: VSOPXO]
    #936078 - 10/06/02 08:15 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Read some of Al's other posts. You'll soon see this is the only type of answer he gives.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Xlea321]
    #936277 - 10/06/02 12:41 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Hey Alex, can you show how the following safety features have increased the accident rates?

1) Headlights.
2) Brake Lights.
3) Tail Lights.
4) Day time running lights.
5) Rear view mirrors.
6) Side view mirrors.
7) Turn indicators.
8) Brakes.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (10/06/02 01:24 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Evolving]
    #936311 - 10/06/02 01:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

And surprise surprise I'm still the only one who'se provided any scientific research to back their claims.

Read the munich taxi study I posted a while ago. Try and comprehend.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Xlea321]
    #936332 - 10/06/02 01:13 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Please address the prior question about the safety features that I just listed.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Evolving]
    #936348 - 10/06/02 01:23 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

After you've made some contribution to the points at hand. I've posted enough expert evidence to prove my point a hundred times over. I think this thread is just about done unless someone can address the overwhelming evidence I've listed.

Explain the munich taxicab study for example.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Xlea321]
    #936363 - 10/06/02 01:30 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

So what you're saying is that you are unable to address my question about the specific safety features that I listed. The Munich Taxicab study does not address the features that I listed. Please stop trying to dodge the question (as you usually do) and provide something that addresses those features that I listed. (Unless you are incapable of doing so - which is what I suspect)

Please show how the following safety features have increased the accident rates:

1) Headlights.
2) Brake Lights.
3) Tail Lights.
4) Day time running lights.
5) Rear view mirrors.
6) Side view mirrors.
7) Turn indicators.
8) Brakes.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Evolving]
    #936370 - 10/06/02 01:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

No I'm saying I've just posted enough expert evidence to prove my point a hundred times over and now instead of paying the slightest attention to it you are making some ludicrous points about lights on cars. I don't have the time or the patience to go through this all again.

If you wish to talk about lights on cars then start another thread. This thread was about airbags.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Xlea321]
    #936379 - 10/06/02 01:41 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You have not proven your point. If you had, I would not have brought up my question. It is apparent that you are ignorant of what I am asking about and are unable to address this issue. This is typical of your style of discussion.

Please show how the following safety features have increased the accident rates:

1) Headlights.
2) Brake Lights.
3) Tail Lights.
4) Day time running lights.
5) Rear view mirrors.
6) Side view mirrors.
7) Turn indicators.
8) Brakes.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (10/06/02 01:41 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Xlea321]
    #936516 - 10/06/02 03:05 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

It would seem the only one who thinks you've made any type of point at all is you Al.

Unless you want to consider the point at the end of the spike.

Once again your posts go nowhere and prove nothing.

What a surprise.

Comedy relief provided yet again by Alex.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Evolving]
    #936523 - 10/06/02 03:09 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Your childish opinion really isn't worth a damn.

I have provided an enormous amount of expert evidence. You have provided nothing. Until you do there is nothing more to say.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Xlea321]
    #936552 - 10/06/02 03:30 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Keep trying Al. Keep trying.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #936559 - 10/06/02 03:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Not you again. Is this all you do? Follow me around in the hope I'll pay you some attention?

Get over it man. Address the issue for once. Prove to me you're not the excrement on the bottom of my shoes.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Xlea321]
    #936591 - 10/06/02 03:53 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Your childish opinion really isn't worth a damn.



Really Alex, is this the best you have to offer to in the way of addressing my question?

In reply to:

I have provided an enormous amount of expert evidence.



You have provided no evidence for the question I have asked. What are the facts, provide us with some numbers relating specifically to the safety features that I have listed. Do you really think that you can rationally prove a point by ignoring data which might be contrary to your assertions?

In reply to:

You have provided nothing. Until you do there is nothing more to say.



Why should I be providing evidence when you are the one making the assertions? You claim a point has been proven, when in fact your argument is based on incomplete data and opinions. Just because Alex repeatedly states his opinion does not make it a fact, nor does it resolve an issue.

Let's try this again and see if you can address the issue directly...

Please show how the following safety features have increased the accident rates:

1) Headlights.
2) Brake Lights.
3) Tail Lights.
4) Day time running lights.
5) Rear view mirrors.
6) Side view mirrors.
7) Turn indicators.
8) Brakes.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Xlea321]
    #936656 - 10/06/02 04:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

I've posted enough expert evidence to prove my point a hundred times over. I think this thread is just about done unless someone can address the overwhelming evidence I've listed.

Well, Alex, there has been so much going on since my last visit I don't know where to begin, really.

First of all, let me point out that you do nothing but damage your credibility when you make (over and over again) such hyperbolic claims as:

We are talking about whether safety additions such as airbags and building stronger cars reduces the accident rate. All the evidence shows it doesn't.

Yep, everyone who'se researched this subject is wrong and you kids are right.

If your common sense doesn't correspond to all available scientific research then it's wrong.

I'm dealing in fact. Proven scientific research.

All the evidence shows it makes them less careful thus increasing their accident rates.

on the other side is every expert in the field who has actually studied this subject.

All the scientific evidence ever done and every expert studying the subject shows that they don't.

The links you've posted provided exactly zero evidence of any kind, scientific or otherwise, having to do with airbags. No statistics; nothing but OPINIONS of psychologists. And, if (as you always do whenever someone refutes your claims) you are NOW changing the rules in midstream and insisting that the ONLY topic under discussion is airbags, rather than safety features in general as mentioned repeatedly both by YOU and by the links you've provided (driver education, ABS brakes, stronger construction, etc.), then we can discard pretty much every link you have provided, since only two even mention airbags.

Secondly, the "experts" you quote are in a very small minority. Is a professional driver's education instructor who has been training drivers for thirty years not an expert? How about an insurance claims adjuster? A race car driver? A statistician for the NHTSA? A highway patrolman who has investigated the scenes of thousands of collisions? Few, if any, of THOSE experts hold the same views your psychologist from Hawaii does.

Next point: Lets get this straight. Before I mentioned these studies 3 hours ago you'd never even heard about them right? You thought I'd made it all up. Now, inside 3 hours, you are a world authority defying the scientific conclusions of people who've actually spent their lives studying this?

No, I have heard these theories (most are NOT studies) before. As I have mentioned from the very moment you introduced the topic in the thread about the second amendment, I am not a fan of airbags. I have been opposed to them from the beginning. I think it was incorrect for the government to force them upon the public rather than have them available as OPTIONAL equipment, and I believe a VERY strong case can be made for them being physically (not just psychologically) more of a threat to the lives of passengers and drivers than no airbags at all. As I have already pointed out, inflation of airbags in non-collision scenarios has literally killed several children and infants and at least one adult, as well as causing injuries ranging from mild to severe in adults. If your car is equipped with a properly-designed three-point active restraint sytem (i.e. a seat/shoulder harness), and you use it religiously, airbags are unnecessary.

Note that I did not dispute anything said about airbags (little as it was) by your various "experts". I do dispute the absurd claim that engineering improvements, driver education, and other safety features do not reduce the fatality rate. If you had confined the discussion to airbags, I would probably have agreed with your position, with the obvious exception of the "spike in the steering wheel" idiocy. By the way, I'm glad to see you finally had the decency to admit it was merely a figure of speech rather than a serious suggestion. Was that really so hard? If you had conceded the point back in the "second amendment" thread you would not now be subjected to ridicule by some of the less restrained posters to this thread.

...you are a world authority defying the scientific conclusions of people who've actually spent their lives studying this?

I am not a "world authority", but automobile safety has been a special interest of mine since the early Seventies. I drove and navigated in autocrosses, rallies, and several SCCA events in the Seventies. My best friend in Canada is an engineer and a car enthusiast. He and I literally stripped to "bolts and ball-bearings" a 1974 Fiat X1?9 and rebuilt it into a rally car. I have in storage a complete collection of "Car and Driver" and "Road and Track" magazines dating from 1970 to 1987 -- every issue. These magazines (and the senior columnist for Car and Driver, Patrick Bedard, in particular) run frequent columns and articles discussing and analyzing all the points raised in this thread. They have printed most of the NHTSA studies from 1970 on, as well as reams and reams of statistics and analyses from insurance companies.

Although I checked your links thoroughly, obviously you have been too afraid to check mine. NHTSA statistics show a decline in the accident rate per mile travelled for just under forty years, as do insurance company actuarial tables. I apologize for the fact that the NHTSA decided to post on the web only their reports from 1994 on, and for the fact that insurance companies don't post their actuarial tables at all, but the fact that insurance companies offer lower rates for airbag-equipped cars and lower rates for new drivers who have attended accredited driver's education courses speaks volumes. Insurance companies are not exactly famous for their largesse -- they don't go by guesswork or by theories, their only god is the actuarial table. I can guarantee you no insurance company in the world would give lower rates for those reasons unless the lower accident rates justified it.

Time to fish or cut bait, Alex. Either restrict your future comments to airbags only, in which case I will bow out of the discussion (or maybe even support you), or continue to drag in the entire field of driver education and automotive safety (ABS brakes, crush zones, side door beams, handling characteristics, padded dashboards, collapsible steering wheels, rollover integrity, lower center of gravity, wider tires, better headlights, traction control, safety glass, etc.) in which case I will address the errors in interpretation of the "Munich Cab Study" and the link regarding truck drivers and accident rates. By the way, anyone who thinks about it for more than a few minutes will find the flaw in both. (Hint -- think about bicycle couriers). The only reason I have left some of the points raised by your "experts" unaddressed is to keep this post relatively short, but I am quite prepared to blow ALL of them out of the water if you wish.

By the way, Evolving's questions are perfectly legitimate. Each and every feature he lists was added to cars over the years as a safety feature.

pinky




--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Phred]
    #938167 - 10/07/02 01:32 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The links you've posted provided exactly zero evidence of any kind, scientific or otherwise, having to do with airbags. No statistics; nothing but OPINIONS of psychologists.

The munich taxicab study?

Amazing. After 3 pages I am still the only person who has provided any evidence whatsoever.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Xlea321]
    #938721 - 10/07/02 08:01 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The munich taxicab study?

The Munich taxicab study concerned taxis equipped with ABS (anti-lock braking system) against those without. It had nothing to do with airbags.

Note that even THAT study didn't find a higher rate of ACCIDENTS.

After 3 pages I am still the only person who has provided any evidence whatsoever.

You have provided no evidence whatsoever. You have provided links to sites where psychologists state their OPINIONS. None of the sites provide any statistics or charts, nor do they reference any studies which DO provide statistics or charts.

So far in this thread I am the only one who has provided a link to a site which DOES provide statistics -- the NHTSA site.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/05/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 16 years, 3 days
Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh? [Re: Phred]
    #940468 - 10/07/02 05:53 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I first thought that this thread was going to drift over into some heavy Ralph Nader political type stuff... But it's not REALLY about politics.

Off this thread goes to The Chill Out Room.

Thanks people.


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


Edited by Jammer (10/07/02 05:58 PM)


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