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OfflinePhred
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The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh?
    #933894 - 10/05/02 06:13 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

No, this is not a line from an old "Get Smart" television show, it is a continuation of a side-issue generated in the thread "Neville's Folly". Alex123 writes:

We are talking about whether safety additions such as airbags and building stronger cars reduces the accident rate. All the evidence shows it doesn't.
http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats/1999_car_accident_stats.html


That site shows a partial set of statistics for a single year. Not only is the sample of a single year too small to be statistically significant, nowhere on the site does it compare figures for cars meeting current safety standards against those which don't. If we "are talking about whether safety additions such as airbags and building stronger cars reduces the accident rate," then I must admit I fail to see the point of including this link.

As another expert points out:
"Another reason for doubting that driver education serves as a cure-all is the considerable evidence that the programs now being offered are not likely to reduce their graduates' crash rate. On the contrary, the evidence suggests that formal driver education, which is mandated in some jurisdictions, often has the opposite effect, as do a few other accident countermeasures, such as anti-lock braking systems (ABS), airbags, and even reflector posts.(2)"
http://www.icbc.com/Library/recovery/volume9/Number2/TargetingRisk/


If you actually read the article, you will see that the author's beef is NOT with safety features of cars, but with the false sense of superiority engendered by state-approved (and often state-MANDATED) driving courses. His contention is that owning a diploma from an accredited driving school can lead one to believe one is a better driver than one actually is.

Incidentally the spike wasn't my idea, I saw an interview with an expert on road accidents who was asked whether installing airbags was going to cut the number of accidents. He laughed and said exactly the opposite, the accident rate was still increasing and the most effective safety addition you could make to a car would be to install a steel spike on the wheel.

I agree with him on the airbag issue. I personally think airbags are worse than useless. But they are orders of magnitude less worthless than a spike sticking out of a steering wheel. Are you really not capable of recognizing when someone is exaggerating to make a point? Of course airbags will not reduce the number of accidents! That was not their purpose. Their purpose was to protect idiots too dim to use a three-point harness. Whether they achieve this purpose is debatable. It is undeniable that they have killed infants, and caused severe injuries to adults involved in low speed collisions, sometimes even just from being tapped from behind in a parking lot.

He laughed and said exactly the opposite, the accident rate was still increasing...

Perhaps in England. Not in North America. Check the NHTSA figures. Not only have FATALITIES been decreasing for almost four decades, so have NON-fatal accidents.

"Engineering alone is ineffective at best; can even increase risk."

This is utter bullshit. Better tires, maneuverability, brakes, etc., allow even mediocre drivers to escape tight situations which would have resulted in an accident in less capable cars. Stronger structural improvements prevent deaths from crushing in impacts or rollovers. That's not conjecture, that's fact.

Safe driving behaviors like staying within speed limits, heeding stop signs, and using safety belts have to be performed over and over again. Research indications that engineering has no direct effect, or only a very limited direct effect, on behaviors like these.

On BEHAVIORS, correct. Not every accident is caused by faulty driver behavior, however. A child dashing into the street from between two parked cars in front of a car going the legal limit will be less likely to be hit by a modern car with ABS brakes and radial tires than he would be if that car was a 1970 model with drum brakes on all four wheels and bias-ply tires.

"Who can argue against the benefits of education or training?" asks Institute chief scientist Allan Williams. "But when good scientific evaluations are undertaken, most of the driver improvement programs based on education or persuasion alone are found not to reduce the crash rate."

If this is true -- if all these programs based on education or persuasion don't reduce the crash rate -- then what is the ONLY remaining reason for the verifiable decline in the crash rate? The improved performance and safety features of the vehicles themselves, of course.

"Additional safety technology and engineering cannot be scientifically proven to change driver behavior or risk assessment."

Of course it can't be proven -- in EITHER direction. That is to say it can't be scientifically proven to make drivers more cautious, nor can it be scientifically proven to make them more reckless. All one can do is observe the fact that each year the accident rate declines and draw a correlation with the fact that each year the cars are equipped with more safety features (including better handling and braking -- NOT just airbags).

Here's the question to be answered: if more safely designed cars are not the reason for this well-documented decline, and better driver behavior is not the reason, what IS the reason? Divine intervention?

pinky




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InvisibleVSOPXO
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Registered: 09/06/02
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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Phred]
    #934008 - 10/05/02 09:16 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)



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OfflinePhred
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: VSOPXO]
    #934061 - 10/05/02 10:16 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

What the hell does he mean "steel spike"How is jabbing a steel spike in your steering wheel more safe?

Ah... you must have missed the original posts. They were in the thread called "2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs?"

Here are just some of Alex's gems from that thread:

"This is a similar argument to the one about safety in cars. I bet you're a big believer in airbags and making cars as safe as they can be right? WRONG. If people feel invulnerable they take massive risks. The most effective safety addition to any car is a foot long steel spike sticking out of the driving wheel."

"Sorry man, but if you had a spike in your steering wheel you would drive slower, leave bigger gaps between cars, look more carefully before pulling out etc. The studies have shown that the more safety devices you introduce in cars the higher the accident rate goes. People drive like maniacs when they think they are protected from harm."

"Give your daughter a gun and she thinks she's invulnerable. Instead of coming home at 10pm in a taxi she thinks ' I'm packin, I'll walk it at 2am' ".

"The trouble is there is no evidence arming the weaker members of society is any protection to them. On the contrary it is likely to lead them to take risks they wouldn't otherwise take because they consider themselves invulnerable."

Note that Alex's theme here is consistent, and also consistent with his stance on Iraq -- one may not take any measures to defend oneself, one must rely on the goodwill of others.

In the case of cars, don't buy a car with airbags and better brakes, crashworthiness, and handling than a 1963 Corvair, because it will make no difference -- the proper course of action is to hope no one ever crashes into you.

In the case of personal safety, don't arm yourself -- the proper course of action is to hope that you never run into someone who wishes you harm.

In the case of an aggressor nation with a track record of invading its neighbors and ignoring agreed-upon terms of surrender, do nothing -- the proper course of action is to believe the leader of that nation when he says he won't do it anymore.

pinky




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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh? [Re: Phred]
    #934097 - 10/05/02 10:41 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

We are talking about whether safety additions such as airbags and building stronger cars reduces the accident rate. All the evidence shows it doesn't.

That site shows a partial set of statistics for a single year. Not only is the sample of a single year too small to be statistically significant, nowhere on the site does it compare figures for cars meeting current safety standards against those which don't. If we "are talking about whether safety additions such as airbags and building stronger cars reduces the accident rate," then I must admit I fail to see the point of including this link.


er... safety features are there to increase your chance of survival in the event of an accident, not to reduce the amount of accidents.
the only thing that can reduce accident frequency is better driver education and responsibility






--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflinePhred
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #934121 - 10/05/02 11:01 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

the only thing that can reduce accident frequency is better driver education and responsibility

Not according to those quoted by Alex. Their contention is that driver education programs actually increase accident frequency.

pinky


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Phred]
    #934138 - 10/05/02 11:11 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

that just isn't so. is he seriously going to believe that without driver education accidents would decrease? sorry, but before I took driver's ed I had only a small clue what I was doing, and the same goes for everyone else. you can't possibly work with the flow of traffic without a ton of instruction and practice beforehand.... whether it's "formal" driver's education or just being taught by someone who knows all the rules and is a good driver, people need instruction. even then, some people are just bad drivers and driver's ed can't help them.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflinePhred
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #934155 - 10/05/02 11:19 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

is he seriously going to believe that without driver education accidents would decrease?

Apparently, he does believe this.

You are new to this forum, aren't you? You may want to look at some of Alex's other posts for some insight into what other things he believes. Not just Alex, either... far from it! There are MANY people here with some pretty entertaining beliefs.

You have stumbled across a veritable mother lode of unusual beliefs, dear lady.

pinky


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Phred]
    #934169 - 10/05/02 11:25 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I find the belief that a bunch of clueless, uneducated drivers would get in less accidents than drivers who have an idea what they're doing.... beyond comprehension



--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #934205 - 10/05/02 11:42 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I find the belief that a bunch of clueless, uneducated drivers would get in less accidents than drivers who have an idea what they're doing.... beyond comprehension

As do I. However, I am accustomed to seeing incomprehensible ideas expressed here, so I am less shocked by it than you apparently are.

I've read a few of your posts in Spirituality and Philosophy -- you seem to have a head on your shoulders. Why don't you stick around for a bit? It's always nice to see someone who can actually THINK contribute to this forum.

pinky


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InvisibleVSOPXO
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Registered: 09/06/02
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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Phred]
    #934361 - 10/05/02 01:23 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh [Re: VSOPXO]
    #934410 - 10/05/02 01:49 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Because you'd have to be pretty fucked up to come up with ideas like that.



Go read some of his other posts and responses. You'll find that Al is indeed an "unusual" thinker.
In reply to:

Does Alex smoke crack?



I don't know about crack, but I suspect he huffs way too many propellants.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh? [Re: Phred]
    #934430 - 10/05/02 01:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Is this a meeting of "clueless anonymous"?  :grin:

Yep, everyone who'se researched this subject is wrong and you kids are right. Glad you've put the world to rights. 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh? [Re: Phred]
    #934445 - 10/05/02 02:04 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Engineering alone is ineffective at best; can even increase risk."

This is utter bullshit


Excuse me but who exactly are you?

Lets get this straight. Before I mentioned these studies 3 hours ago you'd never even heard about them right? You thought I'd made it all up. Now, inside 3 hours, you are a world authority defying the scientific conclusions of people who've actually spent their lives studying this?

I think that sums up quite clearly exactly how moronic you really are.



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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh? [Re: Xlea321]
    #934459 - 10/05/02 02:10 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

research is worthless if you don't understand what you're researching.
also: common sense is quite fucking obviously wrong if some webpage claims otherwise.. like...duh?


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #934470 - 10/05/02 02:15 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

If your common sense doesn't correspond to all available scientific research then it's wrong.

Do you think these researchers have made this up?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #934479 - 10/05/02 02:22 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Here's some more evidence. I wonder when pinky will provide evidence instead of his usual hysteria? Maybe one day soon...

The famous Munich taxicab study

"Part of a taxi fleet in Munich was equipped with an anti-lock brake system?also known as ABS. This type of brake system prevents the wheels from locking up under extreme braking conditions. It offers the advantage of improved steering control over the vehicle during rapid deceleration, especially on slippery road surfaces. The system makes it possible to change the direction of the car and abruptly reduce speed at the same time, at a considerably reduced risk of losing control.

..."The drivers were not aware that their driver behaviour was being observed and the observers did not know whether they were in a taxi with ABS or without. The drivers did, of course, know whether or not they were operating an ABS cab, because of their familiarity with the car they were driving.

Subsequent analysis of the rating scales showed that drivers of cabs with ABS made sharper turns in curves, were less accurate in their lane-holding behaviour, proceeded at a shorter forward sight distance, made more poorly adjusted merging maneuvers and created more 'traffic conflicts'."

..."The Munich taxicab experiment attracted a great deal of attention, not only in the professional circles, but also in the popular press. Newspapers carried articles about it and Bavarian Television wanted to show the viewers what had happened"





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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh? [Re: Phred]
    #934484 - 10/05/02 02:30 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Yet more evidence:

It appears that drivers are less interested in reducing risk than they are in optimizing it. All drivers have a preferred level of risk that they maintain as a target. When the level of risk they perceive in a situation goes down, they will adapt by increasing their risky behavior so that the preferred target level remains constant over time. Technological improvements that drivers perceive as lowering the risk are thus followed by a change in behavior that is less cautious and raises the risk to the level before the improvement. The data discussed in Smiley's article conform to this homeostatic explanation.

Her solution calling for better driver understanding of the limitations of the new driver assistive technology may not work for the same reason. Although driver training improves skill, it also increases confidence, which in turn lowers the perception of risk and increases unsafe behavior. What is needed in addition to training is the introduction of increased benefits from safer behavior. When this motive is introduced into the driving equation, it acts in opposition to homeostasis and many drivers will respond by inhibiting risky behaviors. Drivers need training in two areas: understanding how the new technology works, especially its limitations, as Smiley points out; and understanding the risk compensation effect on their decisions. The latter understanding, reinforced with positive incentives for safe behavior, will make it more likely that society can benefit from the introduction of the new driver-assistive technologies.

LEON JAMES
Professor of Traffic Psychology
University of Hawaii
Honolulu, Hawaii



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh? [Re: Phred]
    #934500 - 10/05/02 02:38 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

All I want pinky is one independent article supporting your position that introducing airbags makes the risk of crashing go down.

Just find me one single solitary expert who agrees with you. Not one of your clueless mates on a chatboard - but someone who has studied this all his life.

Here's the experts agreeing with me again.

http://www.detnews.com/specialreports/2000/trucks/monlead/monlead.htm

Technology alone won?t eliminate risk on the roads

By Dina ElBoghdady / Detroit News Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON ? When it comes to stemming big rig crashes, technology alone won?t do the trick.

The real challenge is the person behind the wheel.

Human error is cited more often than mechanical defects in the roughly 5,000 truck-related deaths that occur each year on the nation?s roads.

Federal regulators, worried that high-tech safety gear may only heighten the potential for deadly mistakes, want more research on whether technology raises safety concerns that outweigh benefits.
...

The cost-sensitive trucking industry, forever wary of investing in costly devices that may prove unreliable, highlights a series of studies that caution against jumping on the technology bandwagon, including research by Gerald Wilde, a psychology professor at Queen?s University in Ontario, Canada.

In his book Target Risk, Wilde suggests technology emboldens motorists to drive recklessly because it makes them feel safer. This kind of risk-taking behavior is not exclusive to truckers, Wilde said. Smokers have been shown to inhale deeper if they know there?s less nicotine in a cigarette and mountain climbers take more challenging routes if they see rescue helicopters looming overhead.

After studying 206 fatal crashes in Virginia in 1993 and reams of insurance data, economists at Virginia Commonwealth University found that aggressive driving cancelled the air bag?s safety benefit for the driver and increased the risk of death for others.

?The air bag was not causing the injury,? said George Hoffer, an economics professor involved in the study. ?Our study showed people were comfortable with a certain level of risk because they think technology will bail them out.?







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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh? [Re: Xlea321]
    #934506 - 10/05/02 02:40 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

you are quite simply misinterpreting studies to use them 'evidence' for your hairbrained theory.
the less you know about something, the more likely you are to make a mistake. people who get in wrecks because they are careless drivers and think they don't have to be careful have something called an ego problem. with or without current driver's education or anti-lock brakes they're simply going to be not careful enough because they don't think small risks (or sometimes even big risks) are important, they think that they can handle anything.
the solution to the egotistical driver problem is BETTER driver education that deals with driver psychology as well as driving basics. putting a bunch of driving-idiots behind the wheel won't make it better, moron.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The old "spike in the steering wheel" ploy, eh? [Re: Phred]
    #934512 - 10/05/02 02:43 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Another article saying driver education has no effect on safety:

http://www.icbc.com/Library/recovery/volume9/Number2/TargetingRisk/

Ironically, the added risk from formal training has commonly been attributed to the fact that training inspires confidence that is disproportionate to the level of new skills. This, in turn, may encourage more and bolder driving and greater willingness to drive in adverse conditions -- increasing exposure to and thus likelihood of mishap.(3)

Interestingly, at least one major driver education program promotes the fact that, by taking its courses, graduates can drive on the road sooner on their own. Confidence is the selling point.

But what level of confidence should society at large wish for? In Quebec, formal driver education was made mandatory in 1983. This was followed by an increase in accidents among 16- and 17-year-old drivers. The law has since been repealed.

In particular, it has been argued that driver education not only makes people more competent in handling vehicles but also more competent in taking risks. Beginning drivers without formal training, this view holds, are more likely to overestimate accident risk and thus avoid challenging conditions. Education corrects such overestimations, allowing students to discover that certain maneuvers and situations are less perilous than they thought.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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