Home | Community | Message Board

Cannabis Seeds - Original Sensible Seeds
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Capsules   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
OfflineOphanim
The Molecule'sSpirit
Male

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression *UPDATED TWICE*
    #9338137 - 11/30/08 03:35 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I know a number of people (including myself) that have experienced severe anxiety or depression from the use of pot and mushrooms. For most of these individuals, these symptoms took place 100% of the time that they took these substances, but for myself and only two others (that I know of) the anxiety/depression persisted in sober states. Abstinence from any sort of drug (including alcohol) improves the symptoms, but - as of three months later - does not eliminate them. Recently a friend of mine who experiences these symptoms only when smoking has said that he is able to smoke again, having taken 5-HTP to initiate a sort of "repair." I'm wondering if the overuse of drugs that manipulate serotonin levels and/or receptors can cause lasting complications that 5-HTP may help eliminate.

I've read about a number of members on here that have developed pot/mushroom induced anxiety disorders. I would say that my case has been rather severe as I experienced significant perspective shifts and minor visual disturbances as well as severe depression/anxiety, intermingled with occasional bouts of confusion (in which my brain seems overwhelmed and lengthy thought processes become lost). While the first two weeks of this were a constant Hell, it has since become a much less serious weekly or bi-weekly occurrence. If time can repair the problem, I'm all for it, but perhaps 5-HTP could do it faster?

Update: I've personally verified that all troubling side effects are alleviated with this solution. Within a week of taking one B-complex vitamin and one 50mg 5-HTP capsule daily, all problems were repaired, and I feel awesome. More details in this reply:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9437094#Post9437094


Update 2: Ever since making this thread almost two years ago, I've received a lot of PM's regarding the condition. Apparently it is not at all rare and since I don't check my Shroomery account much anymore, I want to address the questions I've been receiving:

Did the 5-HTP help you overcome the anxiety/depression for good? Did you have to keep taking it forever?
It helped me ease the immediate symptoms. If you're experiencing them, I'm sure you realize how incredibly valuable that is. Do remember that it takes around a week of consuming 5-HTP daily to see the difference. I began with 50MG, and eventually started taking 100MG. Around two months into this method I began to see some noticeable side effects when I felt a dose of 5-HTP wearing off. These were troubling, and I disliked that the problem didn't seem to be remedying itself over time, so I moved on to another solution.

Did the anxiety/depression ever go away completely?
Well, besides the fact that humans get depressed over sad things, yes. I focused on my health, by which I specifically mean I converted to raw foodism. I'm not going to write a whole article about or pitch for raw foodism here, because I'm usually met with incredulous skepticism and there is tons of information available all over the internet. It doesn't take a genius to realize that a chemical imbalance is a health problem, and that the body can fix itself if it has the nutrients available to do so. Raw food diets provide a nutrient density so vastly superior to even the average "whole foods" lifestyle that I honestly don't think there is any other currently known diet that can come close to it in efficacy. Besides, some of the people PM'ing me have been on the brink of suicide, so I feel like a major dietary change is not a big deal by comparison.

How long did it take the anxiety/depression to go away?
There is no short answer, but it went like this: I stopped taking the 5-HTP and immediately went on what's called a "juice fast" to expedite the detox process. Raw juice fasts are highly effective when done properly, which means they flush toxins very quickly and make you feel like utter shit for a few days. In my case, this meant major anxiety/depression during this period of time. When the detox was over (three days), I felt amazing and broke the fast slowly and properly, then started eating the same kind of shit I'd been eating before. It took about a week before my anxiety attacks came back. Another week after that and they were just as bad as before.

So the second time around (May of 2009) I did a juice fast again to cut off symptoms as quickly as possible, which went much easier the second time, and transitioned into a fully raw diet. I can't tell you how long it took me to cure the anxiety for good because I had no attacks whatsoever as long as I was raw. During this time I continued my abstinence from all drugs, and I also cut out alcohol. I remained a raw foodist for 10 months, then some life changes made it impractical.

So how long have you been leading a normal lifestyle without any special diet and no anxiety?
Around six months.

Did you ever do drugs or alcohol again?
I started drinking again (on occasions) about six months into my raw food diet, and have been (for occasions) since. As for drugs, I did none until February of this year when I started smoking pot again. I found that I had some difficulty with paranoia over triggering the anxiety again, and I had to take it very slow with very small doses (a hit or two for an entire evening, tops) for a pretty long time. As of Burning Man (around a month ago as of this update on 9/23) I was able to smoke my fill, take MDMA, and do a very small dose of mushrooms (the latter two being the first of anything besides pot I'd done since triggering the anxiety) all within the span of one week.

And that didn't affect you negatively at all?
Actually, it did. I was fine at Burning Man, but after coming back I did notice some emotional instability that had a distinctly unnatural feel to it for about a week and a half afterwards. I didn't trigger the anxiety or anything, but I haven't touched anything since. I think it's important to know your limits and weigh your options. The only reason that I was ever confident enough with my mental state to do drugs again in the first place was my meditation.

Did the meditation play a role in your recovery?
Okay, I'll be honest, nobody's asked me this particular question, but I'm offering it up because it's important. YES. To be fair, I think if I'd stuck with raw foods forever and ever I would have been fine without the meditation. But a diligent meditation practice put me in touch with my thought process in a way that I find difficult to explain. Let me put it this way: Picture an anxiety-ridden mind as a churning ocean prone to sudden storms of varying intensity. If someone were to throw a rock or even a boulder into these violent waters, it might have an effect, but you would probably not notice because you see only constant turbulence. Now imagine that you discover a way to calm this ocean so that its surface is as relaxed and reflective as that of a mirror. If so much as a pebble skims across its surface, you will notice the ripples. This is the effect that meditation has on a calm, concentrated mind. To be honest, this benefit is so profound that - had I pursued it first instead of raw foods - I think meditation alone would have eventually conquered my anxiety.

What if I think meditation or raw food is bogus?
I already addressed the raw foods, but meditation can indeed be hocus pocus. Find a good teacher who can guide you well. I personally recommend finding a meditation practice that focuses on practicality, rather than religion. Ideally, find a practice that has no religious basis whatsoever. Dogma and mythology cloud the fundamental elements of meditation practices, which otherwise have scientific support. If you cannot find a meditation teacher that supports no religion, try finding a Zen temple. Zen Buddhism, although it can technically be filed under "religion", is really just the Buddhist meditation practice isolated from the religious mythology found in more traditional Buddhism.

Do you think you would have ever gotten better without any of this?
Maybe, but I think it would have taken a lot longer than I could have lasted. Eventually you just can't take feeling crazy anymore, you know? Trust me, it's worth the change.

Could you have just stayed on the 5-HTP forever?
I'm not sure. I got the distinct feeling that the problem was not getting better while I was taking it, only lurking beneath a pretty surface. This is why I took more drastic changes.

Finally, in case any of you are curious, I didn't turn to raw foodism because of some internet pitch. It only occurred to me because, years ago, my own mother became a raw foodist for a year and permanently cured the chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia that she'd struggled with for the first 15 years of my life. I saw her change from a constantly tortured and exhausted individual to a vibrant and happy one. I know that with all of these fad diets swimming around that dietary changes have become laughable, but try not to think of it as a diet. It's just a really, really healthy lifestyle that enables your body to fix its own problems.

Edited by Ophanim (09/24/10 12:04 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedwtk
it all rolls into one
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 4,482
Loc: Franklin's Tower
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: Ophanim]
    #9338179 - 11/30/08 03:42 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I'm also starting to wonder if my frequent tripping is to blame for my increasing anxiety.


--------------------
       

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOphanim
The Molecule'sSpirit
Male

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: dwtk]
    #9338206 - 11/30/08 03:45 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

dwtk said:
I'm also starting to wonder if my frequent tripping is to blame for my increasing anxiety.


Too much too often was the name of the game for me. I feel if I had either a) not tripped once a week, or b) stuck with exclusively low doses while practicing that kind of frequency, that this wouldn't have happened.

If the thought has entered your mind, it's probably because it holds at least some little weight.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinejust me
Friend
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 9,745
Loc: IL/MO/FL/TX/HI/OR
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: Ophanim]
    #9338324 - 11/30/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

id like to see ppls takes on this.

a friend of mine whos an ex dmt(and everything under it) tripper

lets just say hes been in a different galaxy a few more than a few times.

anyway, he just started taking these as recomended by a friend, and he says he LOVEs the clarity or whatever it is that they do...


--------------------

--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinecactastic
You must be shroomin'

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 247
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 6 months, 16 days
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: just me]
    #9339545 - 11/30/08 07:11 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Damn that sucks. Smoking decreases my anxiety.


--------------------
I'm on YT

My 10+ year old Lophophoras that I grew from seed make the occasional appearance with lots of other cacti, succulents and houseplants.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBeege
gatherer
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 4,466
Loc: Germany Flag
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: cactastic]
    #9339634 - 11/30/08 07:24 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

mushrooms brought me -out- of depression, they certainly didn't cause more.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOphanim
The Molecule'sSpirit
Male

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: just me]
    #9351126 - 12/02/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

just me said:
id like to see ppls takes on this.

a friend of mine whos an ex dmt(and everything under it) tripper

lets just say hes been in a different galaxy a few more than a few times.

anyway, he just started taking these as recomended by a friend, and he says he LOVEs the clarity or whatever it is that they do...


Does the beloved clarity come during his voyages, or does is he referring to its effect on his sober mind?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: Ophanim]
    #9351246 - 12/02/08 01:01 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

5-htp doesn't repair anything OP, it just reacts with the enzyme decarboxylase to form serotonin.

5-hydroxytriptophan + decarboxylase = 5-hydroxytryptamine


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Edited by Cognitive_Shift (12/02/08 01:04 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOphanim
The Molecule'sSpirit
Male

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9351309 - 12/02/08 01:14 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
5-htp doesn't repair anything OP, it just reacts with the enzyme decarboxylase to form serotonin.

5-hydroxytriptaphan + decarboxylase = 5-hydroxytryptamine


It does remedy something then, which is a lack of serotonin. If persisting negative symptoms from overuse of psychs were a result of offsetting your serotonin production, then 5-HTP should theoretically eliminate the symptoms (and, hopefully [?], "re-rail" proper serotonin production). It's all theoretical, but there has to be some reason this allows people with anxiety or fear during pot smoking to escape it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: Ophanim]
    #9351323 - 12/02/08 01:16 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yes it should work to rebuild your serotonin faster than with out it, and is especially good for MDMA use.  Im confused on how this would help pot paranoia as cannabis doesn't directly act on serotonin.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinejust me
Friend
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 9,745
Loc: IL/MO/FL/TX/HI/OR
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: Ophanim]
    #9351366 - 12/02/08 01:26 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

sober mind.

hes kinda an ex tripper. still endulges occasionally


--------------------

--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOphanim
The Molecule'sSpirit
Male

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9351414 - 12/02/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Yes it should work to rebuild your serotonin faster than with out it, and is especially good for MDMA use.  Im confused on how this would help pot paranoia as cannabis doesn't directly act on serotonin.


It doesn't make sense to me either. That said, the only part of this that I'm guessing at is 5-HTP's effect on people with prolonged (sober) anxiety, depression, fear, etc. I have already seen its effects on people with these symptoms while high and it appears to be a valid remedy.

Part of this might come from the fact that most of these people were combining pot with other things. For myself, the combination of mushrooms and pot (frequent, that is) altered my weed high to the point where I would trip from smoking. I've seen reports similar to this all over the shroomery, such as people reaching a sort of low-end DMT space with pot by always taking their DMT with weed. I haven't heard of any studies being done regarding these combinations, and I wouldn't be surprised if you could actually change marijuana's fundamental effect on your cognition by conditioning your mind to elicit a specific response when it's administered. You can't alter the cannabinoids, but may be able to alter your personal response to them. What if constant pot use with drugs that affect the 5HT2a receptor could cause pot to trigger a change in serotonin levels?

You can probably tell by reading this, but I am by no means a neurologist, nor even close, and in truth I'm just spitting out theories here, but the evidence is there. 5HTP repaired their pot highs. I'm just wondering if anyone on the Shroomery has deliberately used it for this, or for sober anxiety/depression induced by psychedelics.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: Ophanim]
    #9351424 - 12/02/08 01:40 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ophanim said:
I know a number of people (including myself) that have experienced severe anxiety or depression from the use of pot and mushrooms. For most of these individuals, these symptoms took place 100% of the time that they took these substances, but for myself and only two others (that I know of) the anxiety/depression persisted in sober states. Abstinence from any sort of drug (including alcohol) improves the symptoms, but - as of three months later - does not eliminate them. Recently a friend of mine who experiences these symptoms only when smoking has said that he is able to smoke again, having taken 5-HTP to initiate a sort of "repair." I'm wondering if the overuse of drugs that manipulate serotonin levels and/or receptors can cause lasting complications that 5-HTP may help eliminate.

I've read about a number of members on here that have developed pot/mushroom induced anxiety disorders. I would say that my case has been rather severe as I experienced significant perspective shifts and minor visual disturbances as well as severe depression/anxiety, intermingled with occasional bouts of confusion (in which my brain seems overwhelmed and lengthy thought processes become lost). While the first two weeks of this were a constant Hell, it has since become a much less serious weekly or bi-weekly occurrence. If time can repair the problem, I'm all for it, but perhaps 5-HTP could do it faster?




I've been through some fairly heavy periods of anxiety/depression related to psychoactive drug (ab)use.  5-HTP is a good mood leveler for some but I always find that taking it before sleep leaves me cracked-out and more anxious the next day.  I'd recommend either St. John's wort and Valerian root to sooth the stressed mind, or a low dose of the original psychedelic that caused the anxiety problem.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLSDreamer
Materialist
Male


Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 10,059
Last seen: 16 days, 4 hours
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: deCypher]
    #9351462 - 12/02/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

^Ugh, I'd never recommend St. John's Wort to anybody, just on principal. It's so messy, pharmacologically. That's just me, though.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAgingHippy
Flwr Pwr
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 15,613
Loc: Necropolis Flag
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: LSDreamer]
    #9351579 - 12/02/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

If i get anxiety after a difficult trip, I never truly recover until I have a good trip.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: LSDreamer]
    #9351906 - 12/02/08 03:19 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Messy?  How so?

I haven't looked too in-depth into its pharmacology; all I know is that I've personally seen significant results against anxiety and depression by using it.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesomebody716
Explorer


Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 423
Loc: Gulf Coast, United States
Last seen: 14 years, 22 days
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: deCypher]
    #9351929 - 12/02/08 03:24 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Panaeolus acuminatus has small amounts of 5-HTP

(according to wikipedia)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrusaderbg
Stranger

Registered: 03/22/08
Posts: 30
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: somebody716]
    #9352090 - 12/02/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

When I take an anti -depression drug I expect it to work(and it does for the ppl you've mentioned in the first post).

Whaever caused the depression doesn't matter so much.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLSDreamer
Materialist
Male


Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 10,059
Last seen: 16 days, 4 hours
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: deCypher]
    #9352345 - 12/02/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Messy?  How so?

I haven't looked too in-depth into its pharmacology; all I know is that I've personally seen significant results against anxiety and depression by using it.




It's just got a very broad pharmacological profile that isn't fully understood. I'd be worried about unexpected interactions with drugs (both recreational and medicinal) and potential side-effects in some people.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOphanim
The Molecule'sSpirit
Male

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
Re: 5-HTP for individuals with Marijuana/Mushroom-induced anxiety or depression [Re: deCypher]
    #9352370 - 12/02/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I've been through some fairly heavy periods of anxiety/depression related to psychoactive drug (ab)use.  5-HTP is a good mood leveler for some but I always find that taking it before sleep leaves me cracked-out and more anxious the next day.  I'd recommend either St. John's wort and Valerian root to sooth the stressed mind, or a low dose of the original psychedelic that caused the anxiety problem.


Interesting. I was probably going to attempt using the 5-HTP as a morning supplement on a daily basis and see if the problem is alleviated after a week or two. I've used Valerian root to help me sleep, but the anxiety overpowers it effortlessly if I'm having an episode.

Nowadays I almost never get the anxiety, but I still swing between strange headspaces with occasional confusion, and the depression is fairly regularly (one bad bout of it a week if it's a good week). If something (such as 5-HTP) were to agitate the anxiety at all, I would probably notice immediately.

At the moment, I have a few responsibilities that make me hesitant to use anything that could accidentally worsen my symptoms. Some time around next week I plan to attempt remedies, and I'll update this thread when I've determined their validity.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Capsules   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Mushroom Induced Song? What do u reckon? AusCubensis 1,374 1 05/20/01 07:54 PM
by HB
* poll about cultivation of pot vs. cultivation of mushrooms
( 1 2 all )
ShroomBoarder 8,773 36 02/17/03 07:54 PM
by _MarsBars_
* Paxil - anti depressants, with mushrooms shroominsmurf 8,906 9 08/18/02 04:08 AM
by NeonBlack
* 5HTP relieves trip anxiety
( 1 2 all )
Swami 15,883 35 12/18/09 06:56 PM
by Gomp
* Tripping leading to anxiety?
( 1 2 3 all )
ShRo_0My 10,162 45 01/04/21 04:49 AM
by Tom66
* Psilocybin, the medicinal mushroom DreaMaTrix 6,708 4 09/03/02 05:43 PM
by Poopman
* Japan's Up and Coming Magic Mushroom Ban June 6 mjshroomer 8,481 15 05/05/16 12:48 AM
by mushpunx
* 5-htp and zoomers? FlusH 1,176 1 07/16/02 04:23 PM
by SalsDali

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: psilocybinjunkie, Rose, mushboy, LogicaL Chaos, Northerner, bodhisatta
24,812 topic views. 0 members, 28 guests and 14 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 13 queries.