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Offlinelibertaire
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Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption
    #9316875 - 11/26/08 01:22 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I know there has been many threads on the specifics of psilocybin extraction, such as through methanol and the like, as well as preservation, but I haven't found one trying to determine what the most overall efficient way of extracting and preserving these compounds might be.

There's a few factors that I think need to be taken into account:

-  A good percentage of these compounds are lost in the process of drying.
-  These compounds tend to break down quite rapidly once extracted.
-  Certain methods, such as freeze drying, are simply too expensive/complicated to be useful.

So given these factors, it would seem to me that the extraction should be done with:

- Fresh fruit bodies...
- Into a medium that will protect the compounds from the elements...
- As well as make these compounds available for easy consumption. 

Based on this, would it be inaccurate to conclude that the easiest and most effective way to preserve the maximum amount of psiloc(yb)in from a harvest would be to brew a tea from freshly picked fruits, and then store this tea in a cold, dark place?

Further questions:

- How well do these compounds preserve in water? 

- Are there things that could be added to the water to prevent them from breaking down while still keeping the potion edible?

- Are there other methods that would be more effective than tea?


Feel free to flame/move/delete/lock this thread as you see fit, I wasn't sure where else to put it, and I couldn't find the specific answers to this question.

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Offlinedenger
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: libertaire]
    #9317033 - 11/26/08 01:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Brewing usually involves heat above 180F. This will destroy psilocin/psilocybin.

If you do cold extraction you will have a lot of bacteria growing in the resulting solution.

I do not believe water extraction to be the right way to go.

Drying whole mushrooms is a tried and true method. It is cheap, effective and easy. Yes, it does lose some activity, perhaps even as much as 50%. So what? It is easier and cheaper and more fun to grow a bigger crop then go hi-tek preservation or extraction route.

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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: denger]
    #9317502 - 11/26/08 03:33 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Hm.  See, but that is 50% that has now gone to waste.  I don't like the idea of that.  Surely there is someway to preserve that 50%, or at least reduce it's degredation. 

I'm curious how exactly the extraction into water works.  At what temperature, if any, are the compounds released from the fruit bodies?  Is it possible to just soak fruits in room temperature or perhaps a bit warmer water(sterilized), maybe with some sort of mild acidic additive, like orange or lemon juice?  This would eliminate the problematic temperatures and bacteria if it's possible.

I'm still curious.

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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: libertaire]
    #9317561 - 11/26/08 03:43 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

"Psilocybin does not break down at the temperature of simmering water (100 C). Some use lemon juice (or other acidic juice) in the tea to aid in extraction of Psilocybin; however, Psilocybin is very water soluble and this is unnecessary. (If anyone has more information about the molecular nature of the active ingredients, please let me know.)"

http://nepenthes.lycaeum.org/Plants/shrooms/msurvey/msurvey1.html

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InvisibleJ3illy
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: libertaire]
    #9318250 - 11/26/08 05:35 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Here are the accepted figures of what is lost by typical drying [for P. cubensis].  20% of psilocybin and 50% of the psilocin.  This is misleading however, as there is 6-8x LESS psilocin than psilocybin.  So this roughly comes out to losing ~25% of the actives w/ drying. 

Now the actives are lost due to oxidation.  So I've thought that if you transfer shrooms to an inert environment immediately after picking, drying them and storing them in this environment - you could potentially lose NO actives.

There's a tek on this site for storing them in an inert environment - which is bags that have freon in them, but I've never seen a tek on actually DRYING them in an inert environment.  It's not difficult to get freon in bags, as it's much heavier than air, and can be bought cheaply in the form of Dust-Off spray.  But it would take some serious ingenuity to try and actually dry them AND store them in an inert environment.

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Invisibleshroomophile
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: J3illy]
    #9318891 - 11/26/08 07:41 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Here's one of the things i do.Get the stems cracker dry.Mortal and pestle them to a fine dust.Then put it(Them,They)into those big 00 Pill capsules.Add one of those moisture remover pacs in your container,and in the freezer they last a very,very,very long time.A couple pills makes Saturday afternoon quite pleasant.


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Once the mighty oak,was a nut who held his ground.

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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: J3illy]
    #9319661 - 11/26/08 09:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

J3illy said:
Here are the accepted figures of what is lost by typical drying [for P. cubensis].  20% of psilocybin and 50% of the psilocin.  This is misleading however, as there is 6-8x LESS psilocin than psilocybin.  So this roughly comes out to losing ~25% of the actives w/ drying.




True, but only for P.cubensis.  Others, like azures or cyans have more psilocin, almost as much as cybin.

Here's something I came up with that might work without trying to find out how to work with freon safely:

Take freshly picked fruits, and vacuum seal them, along with some desiccant, or some other drying agent.  This will allow fruits to dry for later use, while exposing them to the least amount of air as possible, thus minimizing the oxidation and degradation of compounds.  Whadya think?

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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: libertaire]
    #9319954 - 11/26/08 11:07 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Another possibility has been brought up by AdoreChampignons in this thread.

The possibilities with this seem quite promising.

"Oxygen scavengers can reduce the amount of oxygen in a package to less than 0.01 percent, as compared to traditional preservation methods such as gas flushing and vacuum packing, which reduce headspace oxygen to only about 0.50 percent."

(http://www.multisorb.com/library/techpapers/active_html/view)

So take this, and combine it with the aforementioned method of vacuum packing the fruits, and it seems like we have quite an effective approach.

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InvisibleR10tGuNn3r

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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: libertaire]
    #9320007 - 11/26/08 11:26 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

i wouldnt mess with freon.. when i was working for an ac company i had a buddy pass out from working with it.. unfortunately.. he passed out with the freon tank still open and the tank emptied causing severe burns over 60% of his body... he also lost a couple fingers because of it...

here's my thoughts:
most of the degradation of the actives is going to occur while it is drying, since that is when the change from a moisture rich environment to an oxygen rich environment occurs. Obviously over time they will degrade also, but eliminating this step would probably do a lot of good. Vacuum seal them fresh, and freeze them immediately. removing the oxygen before the cin or cybin has time to oxidize, and freezing them to prevent any unwanted contamination since they are still moist. Check this out and see what you can come up with.. pay attention to p. 127 about flushing with nitrogen or carbon dioxide to prevent oxidation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ERoAm13YF8IC&pg=PA125&lpg=PA125&dq=removing+moisture+from+food&source=web&ots=H6Z_1up0d4&sig=f3rIiRmjNAxKM6pBlcRlLz8NFxg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result#PPA127,M1

Edited by R10tGuNn3r (11/26/08 11:37 PM)

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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: R10tGuNn3r]
    #9320119 - 11/26/08 11:54 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The problem I could see with freezing them fresh is that this causes the water crystals to break down the cell walls, thus exposing the compounds to oxidation once the vacuum sealed container is re-opened.  Once they're dry, this problem is eliminated.

That information you posted is very useful.  I'm not sure where I'd be able to get nitrogen or co2 from, but the article also talks about oxygen scavengers as well, so word.  :rocket:

Further questions -

If one were to vacuum seal fresh fruits in a container/bag (I think a bag would be best, since it would by nature reduce the amount of oxygen from the start) with oxygen absorbers, would this dry the material out, or would it simply preserve it by eliminating oxygen?  If it would simply preserve it, would it be possible to dry the fruits in this oxygen free environment by adding a desiccant or some other moisture absorbing substance?  If this is indeed possible, would the original amount of compounds then be maintained in these dry fruit bodies, or is there some other factor I'm missing that would degrade the compounds?

Edited by libertaire (11/27/08 12:16 AM)

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: libertaire]
    #9320452 - 11/27/08 01:23 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The information I have available says that psilocin is "highly unstable in aqueous solution" but that solutions containing concentrations of ascorbic acid greater than 10 mM were effective at stabilizing psilocin (Hasler et al., 1997).  The same study states that the degradation of psilocin is strongly dependent on the concentration of psilocin.  The results show that a mere 10 nM solution of psilocin showed a 50% loss of psilocin content after 6 hours (the sample was also exposed to light).

I believe that these results are consistent with the reputed success of the "lemon tek" in terms of maintaining potency.  I suggest that typically, preparations from magic mushrooms of psilocin tend to involve degradation of psilocin but that ascorbic acid prevents the rapid degradation of this substance.  I also believe that heating solutions of psilocin, such as for preparing tea, is going to increase the rate of degradation.




======================

Hasler F, Bourquin D, Brenneisen R, Bär T, Vollenweider FX.  Determination of psilocin and 4-hydroxyindole-3-acetic acid in plasma by HPLC-ECD and pharmacokinetic profiles of oral and intravenous psilocybin in man.  Pharm Acta Helv.  72, pp. 175 - 184.  (1997)


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InvisibleR10tGuNn3r

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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: libertaire]
    #9320484 - 11/27/08 01:34 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

if you're trying to preserve the maximum amount of actives.. you're going to have to skip drying them... assuming they are for consumption, they taste better fresh anyway.. if you're totally set on drying them you're going to have to figure out how to dry them in an inert environment.. ie completely dark, and filled with something like nitrogen.. (can be purchased at any welding supply store) or you could freeze-dry them inert.. then vacuum seal them.. my take on vacuum sealing them and freezing them was under the assumption that you would put a designated weight of wet (compared respectively to estimated dry weight).. vacuum seal, freeze.. thaw (inside of the vacuum bag).. and finally open the package and test or consume or whatever you're doing with them.. unless you're revolutionizing the world with your study of actives.. and your going to be thawing and freezing repeatedly.. its not worth it..


I saved another 1 part per million of actives from oxidation!!!
and i stayed at a holiday inn express last night.

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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: Plasmid]
    #9321581 - 11/27/08 10:42 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
The information I have available says that psilocin is "highly unstable in aqueous solution" but that solutions containing concentrations of ascorbic acid greater than 10 mM were effective at stabilizing psilocin (Hasler et al., 1997).  The same study states that the degradation of psilocin is strongly dependent on the concentration of psilocin.  The results show that a mere 10 nM solution of psilocin showed a 50% loss of psilocin content after 6 hours (the sample was also exposed to light).

I believe that these results are consistent with the reputed success of the "lemon tek" in terms of maintaining potency.  I suggest that typically, preparations from magic mushrooms of psilocin tend to involve degradation of psilocin but that ascorbic acid prevents the rapid degradation of this substance.




That's useful to know, thanks.

r10tgunner, what I think you're missing is that even if the substance is in an airtight environment, the cell walls will still be broken down because there will still be water that freezes.  Even though the actives will not be broken down while in the sealed container, they will the second you open the container and they are exposed to oxygen.  Also, all of those methods you've mentioned (inert gas, freeze drying) are simply too complicated to be useful to a lay man like myself.  The materials have to be readily available to the public and the methods simple enough for a non-scientist to understand.  I know this is supposed to be the advanced forum, but I'm trying to make an advanced concept (the preservation of complex and unstable compounds) into a simple one.

Edited by libertaire (11/27/08 10:51 AM)

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Offlinemushrume man
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: libertaire]
    #9330589 - 11/29/08 03:04 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

what about storing in oil or pickling?
just throwing that out there...

maybe blending the fresh fruits with water and freezing for how ever long you need, then thawing and drinking the mixture.
the actives would stay in the water the whole time so there wouldn't be much oxidization, the cell walls would break but it wouldn't matter because it's blended into tiny pieces and would be drank anyway.

also, i don't know if this would work for these compounds but, iso-butane could be used to extract the actives and stored in a container suitable for the high pressure


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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: mushrume man]
    #9331347 - 11/29/08 09:59 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Blue-Honey...honey is an awesome preserver for shrooms!


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I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving, hysterical, naked, dragging themselves through the ghetto streets at dawn looking for an angry fix, angel headed hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night, who poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed and high sat up smoking in the supernatural darkness of cold-water flats floating across the tops of cities contemplating jazz, who bared their brains to Heaven under the El and saw Mohammedan angels staggering on tenement roofs illuminated...

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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: Braniac]
    #9331432 - 11/29/08 10:47 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Are there any teks out there for blue honey?  It's probably pretty straight forward, but I'd like to read into it a bit more.

I'm gonna make a tek eventually for the method we devised above(oxygen scavengers, silica gel, into a vacuum pack, and then freeze once dried).  I'm pretty convinced that's the most effective way we've come up with so far, short of possibly freeze drying which isn't an option.

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Offlinemushrume man
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption [Re: libertaire]
    #9332738 - 11/29/08 03:39 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

some people say only dried mushrooms can be used for blue-honey and that fresh ones rot, i read that you can drain off the water from the fresh mushrooms after it separates and rises to the top of the jar.
after you try your freeze dry method you could put the dried mushrooms in honey


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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption (moved) [Re: libertaire]
    #9332871 - 11/29/08 04:09 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

This thread was moved from Advanced Mycology.

Reason:
Off topic in advanced mycology.  Moved to Psychedelic Experience forum.

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Offlinedoom876
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Re: Most efficient way of preserving psilocin/psilocybin for consumption (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9332992 - 11/29/08 04:29 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

What about making honey psilo-jelly?


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Not this weak travesty that let millions starve and sucks corporate cock while failing at every turn.

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