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Entropymancer Registered: 07/16/05 Posts: 10,207 |
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Thanks for all the great feedback everyone, it's really appreciated.
warriorsoul, I've editted the guessowii, persicina, and formosa entries to reflect those clarifications/details. I've been working on a "part two" addendum to this guide, that covers the chemistry, preparation, and use of the mushroom. The chemistry and culinary use sections were straightforward enough and I finished them quickly (I'll paste them below). The use of the mushroom for psychoactive purposes is a thornier issue, so that part is still percolating around in my head. I have experience with the fresh mushroom at low-doses (prepared by sauteeing), and I'll be experimenting with similar low doses of dried material to get a perspective on that. High doses are a lot shadier territory, since the potency of the mushroom varies based on so many factors. I also need to figure out how to come to terms with the fact that some people swear eating the fresh uncooked mushroom provides the best experience (a practice which I can't condone, since it is unknown whether orally ingested ibotenic acid might cross the blood-brain barrier). Anyway, here's the chemistry and culinary use sections, for those who are interested: Edit: Finished product has been appended onto the original post. -------------------- Good Drug Books PCPiHKAL|Rhodium Edited by Entropymancer (03/07/09 12:45 AM)
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2859558484 Growery is Better Registered: 01/10/06 Posts: 8,752 Last seen: 3 years, 6 months |
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Beege gatherer Registered: 08/02/08 Posts: 4,466 Loc: Germany Last seen: 12 years, 4 months |
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very interesting
I've been interested in trying the fly agaric for it's culinary value but I didn't want the unpleasant side-effects of muscimol. I may decide to try the leaching process in the future if I happen to find a muscaria.
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Mr. Mushrooms Spore Print Collector Registered: 05/25/08 Posts: 13,018 Loc: Registered: 6/04 |
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Also well done. From a substantive pov, I would have explained a little more about how the garlic protects the brain rather than just naming the chemical in it. However, that is a personal preference, not really a criticism.
I'm sure you would catch all of these sooner or later but just to help out: The physical effects of muscarine are intense perspiration (sweating), salivation (drooling), and lachrymation (tearflow from the eyes). [tearflow should be enough if you are shooting for consistency. Adding "from the eyes" seems redundant] I'd have to say it's most similar to alcohol (though of course there are differences, alcohol doesn't tend to lend itself to visionary experiences at high doses, for one this). This [Is the this within the parenthesises a multiple?] In fact Japanese researchers found that muscimol is about twenty times more effective by weight than monosodium glutamate (MSG) at enhancing flavors [comma after fact; period at the end] Just slice your mushrooms thinly and boil them for a few minutes in a potfull lightly salted water [Should 'of' go between 'potfull' and 'lightly'? Potfull might be spelled 'potful'] It's a great addition to sauces as well. Adding a bit of fly agaric to tomato sauce does wonders to bring out the flavors. It's also a great flavor-enhancer when added to gravy. [Personal preference again: as a rule I don't like contractions, particularly 'it's'. The redundancy in this section, doubly so. They seem to lower the quality of an otherwise articulate and erudite piece.] It just occurred to me, you aren't a product of American public education are you? The writing definitely has a European feel. Oh, and maybe it's out of style, but I love endnotes. Perhaps that's just an insecurity of mine.
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weiliiiiiii Stranger Registered: 10/10/03 Posts: 9,711 |
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i think jacksonii should be listed as one of the look alikes, i have known many noobs to mistake it for muscaria.
in the summer there were tons of ID requests with people thinking jacksonii were muscaria great work entropymancer, its nice to see shroomerites contributing useful info to the community Edited by weiliiiiiii (11/30/08 04:44 PM)
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Entropymancer Registered: 07/16/05 Posts: 10,207 |
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Thanks again for the editing, Senor Hongos. A lot of those little things are hard to notice when proof-reading one's own writing.
Quote: I actually am a product of American public education, though I think my writing proficiency probably developed in spite of this fact rather than because of it. When attending college, I was appalled by the writing style of the average student. But I've been an avid reader since early childhood; I know the style of writing I find palatable to read, and I strive to make my writing match it. Quote: I've never been much for endnotes, but I'm partial to ample bibliographies. I fell instantly in love with Jonathan Ott's Pharmacotheon when I saw that the bibliography occupies a full quarter of the book (and has frequently led me to very interesting or useful sources). I've been toying with the idea of including thorough citations and a bibliography in the guide... I probably will eventually, but that's a project for another weekend. Quote: To be honest, I write things like this mostly due to the fact that my memory is often so patchy. When I read around and learn something interesting, it's only a matter of time before 90% of it falls out of my head. By distilling the essential information down into writing, it makes it much easier to refresh myself on the info, plus it gives others the opportunity to be exposed to the same information without digging around dozens of sources. Quote: Will do. I knew that some of the accidentla ingestions of the fly agaric were from people who thought they were picking a caesar mushroom, but I didn't know that it worked the other way around too (though it seems the edibility of the american caesar, A jacksonii, is questionable).
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Mr. Mushrooms Spore Print Collector Registered: 05/25/08 Posts: 13,018 Loc: Registered: 6/04 |
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It's hard not to make a comment or two. Forgive me.
Quote: Our history runs parallel. It's a pity it didn't have the same effect on me. I was only able to edit as efficiently as I did because I constantly edit and re-edit my own work, never satisfied in the end. Many write; few write well. Quote: Endnotes, footnotes, ample bibliographies, I like them all. When I am doing research, I prefer notes over bibliographies so I can read the reference materials firsthand and see the context. Ample bibliographies alone can allow the writer too much leeway in interpretation, sometimes to the point of turning the information inside out and backwards--shoddy scholarship and even deliberate deception. A combination of both notes and bibliographies is a plus. As people do not know how to write, they do not know how to read or even select a book to read. I make my primary use of bibliographies when selecting a book to read. If I see the wrong sorts of authors as reference materials I immediately reject the book (which is why I prefer Borders over Amazon.com). Pharmacotheon was a wonderful book on a number of levels. I enjoyed the way Ott described the mechanics of making it as well as the lengthy bibliographies. I also appreciated the intro, which I believe he called the Proemium (or something like that). I still have Desmanthus illinoensis in my garden, from 1995, for making the Northern Ayahuasca. Good times. I declined his offer to participate in getting the book published by pre-ordering with one's name published in it. Friends of mine ponied-up though. Their names are in the front. Oh well, enough of memory lane.
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HerbBaker Registered: 08/17/07 Posts: 2,506 |
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It looks like persicina will get species status. This is from RET "To give a little history behind the Geml et al. paper... Some years back I received a large packet of amanitas from Dr. Laursen and put them into storage as too big a project for that time. However, Dr. Laursen and I had an interesting exchange of emails or letters at the time after I read a book that reported the stomache contents from the frozen "mummies" of ancient bison and mammoths of the "Mammoth Steppe." The tree twigs in the stomaches were twigs of trees we know today as symbionts of A. muscaria and other fungi. I wondered what could be learned about amanitas that may have crossed Beringia with the expansion or retraction of vegetation in low ocean periods of the past. Years later, after I had prepared a paper on a method for separating the European and American "muscarias" into at least two red fly agarics. I learned of Jozsef Geml's research and the group of authors asked if I would publish the morphological work after Dr. Geml published molecular paper you have seen. I agreed. Also, I became one of the suppliers of determined material for the study. The first morphological paper that you will see in future related to red fly agarics is the extension of the original paper that demonstrates the morphological distinctions sufficient to separate the red European taxon from the red American taxon. I had been long convinced that Jenkins' "var. persicina" was actually distinct from "muscaria". We now have mutually supporting morphological and molecular hypotheses that both suggest that this is likely to be the case. That's three taxa segregated by two different methodologies. The color variants that have been given names not only have "blurry edges" morphologically, but don't form phylogenetic clades. At least for the moment, this suggests that we may have over-subdivided both the European and the American muscarias. Maybe we will find it useful or "more correct" to say "yellow-orange variant" of Amanita amerimuscaria instead of A. muscaria var. guessowii (for example). So still just three species are well justified: muscaria, amerimuscaria nom. prov. (==A. muscaria var. flavivolvata), and persicina (provisional new combination). No new taxa so far, and maybe we'll lose some. Now we come to issues of evolution in island ecosystems. There are Mediterranean models (A. gioiosa S. Curreli and A. heterochroma S. Curreli) associated with Cistus that correspond rather well (limited knowledge) with the undescribed taxa of the Channel Islands. All fall in the muscarioid group (plentiful clamps, typical distribution of volva, inamyloid spores, pigments that are likely to be betaxanthins and betapurpurins and that combine to provide colors ranging from yellow to orange to peach to pinkish to brilliant red and that fade in sunlight). The island taxa show many morphological similarities to our (more or less) named mainland taxa muscaria, amerimuscaria, persicina, and regalis (previously considered a separate species at least by the northern European mycologists who know it best). On the other hand, these islands have unexpectedly provided us/me with a model for my theory that amanita spores have a tendency to elongate (providing more travel distance) in areas that are more or less hostile due to extreme seasonality of rain, leaky ecosystem, etc.). That is to say, all the island taxa or possible taxa demonstrate not only the ties with the nearby mainland species, but also have spores that are NOTABLY more elongate and proportionately narrower than those mainland species. Hence, not only are the island taxa investigated molecularly segregated by the mysteries of phylogenetic tree-building software; but they also appear to have evolved differences that can be seen and measured by a morphologist. The European material exists in several collections (only one in my herbarium). The Channel Island taxa are represented by only one or two collections each (in some cases lacking mature fruiting bodies). Recollection of the Channel Island tax is absolutely necessary in order to be able to fully assess their morphologies. At the moment, I have concluded that there is more than molecular evidence that they have evolved from an ancestor common to both A. muscaria and A. persicina. [I forgot to mention that their colors were described as "peach" by their sole collector.] I hope this explains more of the background of the work described in part in Geml et al. As far as I am concerned, no novel taxon is going to be described without full, modern-style (post Basian), morphological data I'm glad that there has been this discussion about the morphological-molecular interface. Sometimes it has been ignored at the peril of the quality of the relevant research. Certain papers that report genetic sequences have attached these sequences to names of taxa that don't exist in the relevant country(ies). At the very least this suggests that the authors haven't read or don't trust modern morphological studies...or are looking for "a separate truth" and ignoring morphology. I'm happy to say that I've had the pleasure of working with molecular researchers such as Joszef Geml, Anne Pringle, Heather Hallen, and (to a lesser degree) Jean-Marc Moncalvo. I think there has been a mutual learning experience that offers us a chance at better-informed collaboration (and, if we could be so lucky, more extensively applicable research results). I wonder if any of you have read the recent revisiting of phylogenetic tree "accuracy" on the taxocom email reflector. The subject comes up repeatedly: How can you say you have an "accurate approximation" when you have not idea of the entity being approximated? Well, it seems what you do is change the meanings of the words to mean something more cautious and tentative than the term "accurate" usually implies. Very best, Rod" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ama http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ama Edited by HerbBaker (12/04/08 10:51 AM)
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HerbBaker Registered: 08/17/07 Posts: 2,506 |
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“three unrelated differences” hypothesis
"I’m mostly a traditional morphological taxonomist; so the differences were morphological some macroscopic, but mostly microscopic. Some are as simple as differences in spore size or stipe decoration. Others have to do with how the cap’s skin (pileipellis) separates from the inner surface of the volva, the form of the tissue supporting the basidia within a gill, etc. I follow my teacher, Dr. Bas, in deciding on species boundaries in Amanita. No one has been able to successfully produce a single-spore isolate of an Amanita. Hence, mating tests are not possible. (The same is true, at present, for most of the mycorrhizal fungi of which I know.) Bas held that differences in three unrelated characters were sufficient to segregate two amanitas at the rank of species. This has turned out to be a good conservative rule. So far it has not been contradicted by molecular work. Dr. Geml’s recent experience with the molecular phylogeny of the muscarioid group shows that three characters was sufficiently conservative for me to separate amerimuscaria and muscaria morphologically and not to run into conflict with molecular results. Cap color as a reason for making a variety (or form) within a species apparently doesn’t go unchallenged by DNA among the same group of organisms. Bas used his experience with hundreds of species to come up with the “three unrelated differences” hypothesis. It has worked for me for 30 years."
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Entropymancer Registered: 07/16/05 Posts: 10,207 |
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Well, here's my guide to using them. It's not terribly detailed, since people have so many different ways of using them, and dosage varies so widely, but it's at least a good overview, and at the end I've collected together some useful links.
Preparing and Consuming the Fly Agaric Of course, finding the fly agaric is only half the battle. Once you have the mushroom, you've got to figure out what to do with it. In this portion of the guide, I'll discuss the use of the mushroom as culinary morsel, as a tonic, and as an entheogen. For convenience, the entheogenic use and use as a tonic will be grouped into a single section, since the preparation methods are the same, and both sets of effects are due to the same active principles; the only difference is the dosage. But before discussing either one, it's prudent to review the chemistry of the fly agaric mushroom, as this is of importance to the preparation method, regardless of the intended use. The Chemistry of the Fly Agaric Muscarine The first novel compound found in Amanita muscaria was muscarine, isolated in 1869. Muscarine mimics the action of acetylcholine at a particular type of acetylcholine receptor (the G protein-coupled sort), called the muscarinic acetylcholine receptor in honor of this molecule. The physical effects of muscarine are intense perspiration (sweating), salivation (drooling), and lachrymation (tearflow from the eyes). It is not psychoactive. Despite the fact that these symptoms obviously don't resemble fly agaric intoxication, for almost a century the it was widely and illogically believed that muscarine was the primary compound responsible for the effects of the fly agaric. Muscarine is only a trace component of the fly agaric mushroom; it is reported to comprise 0.0003% of the mushroom by weight. Still, considering that perpiration, salivation, and lachrymation are all occasionally reported at high doses, it seems likely that this trace presence of muscarine does account for some of the bodily side-effects of the mushroom. Bufotenine and Hyoscyamine In 1953, a one publication reported the isolation of bufotenine from A muscaria. In 1955, another publication reported the isolation of l-hyoscyamine. All subsequent efforts to verify the findings have failed to turn up either compound. Both reports are currently considered to have been in error. It is the general consensus that neither bufotenine nor hyoscyamine occur in the fly agaric mushroom. Muscazone Muscazone is a rearrangement product of ibotenic acid (see below). There have been reports about the isolation of muscazone from both European and North American specimens. Since muscazone is easily formed by chemical treatment of ibotenic acid, it's entirely possible that this compound is an artifact of the isolation process, and does not occur naturally in the mushroom. Whether or not it actually occurs naturally in the fly agaric mushroom, the psychoactivity of this compound is dubious, and it is not considered to play a role in fly agaric inebriation. MCTHC A beta-carboline compound, 1-methyl-3-carboxyl-tetrahydro-b Multiple efforts to isolate this compound from North American fly agarics have failed. It is entirely possible that this compound occurs only within the Eurasian clades, and does not occur in the North American clade of A muscaria. Muscimol and Ibotenic Acid In 1964, the two primary active compounds in the fly agaric were finally isolated and characterized. These are ibotenic acid, and muscimol. Both are isoxazole compounds, which tend to be rare in the world of natural products. Consequently, they aren't really related in structure to any other common drug. This also makes it describe their effects by relating the experience to the typical categories. They don't make you trip like tryptamine or phenethylamine psychedelics (serotonergic drugs). They aren't really dissociative like ketamine or DXM (NMDA antagonist drugs). They aren't deleriants (anticholinergic drugs), although a certain degree of delerium can occur with high doses. They affect a different set of neurotransmitters than any of these; they produce an agonist action at GABA receptors. GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) is a neurotransmitter in your brain that mediates alertness and sedation. If I had to compare the effects of the fly agaric to a common drug, I'd have to say it's most similar to alcohol (though of course there are differences, alcohol doesn't tend to lend itself to visionary experiences at high doses, for one this). This comparison even makes pharmacological sense, considering that alcohol is also a GABA receptor agonist. At lower doses, the effects are more similar to benzodiazepines, which are also GABA receptor agonists. To get specific, ibotenic acid is α-amino-3-hydroxy-5-isoxazole acetic acid. When ibotenic acid is decarboxlated, it yields muscimol, 3-hydroxy-5-aminomethyl-isoxazol Between the two compounds, muscimol is the more potent, and the one that's essential to the mushroom's activity. Muscimol is substantially active in doses of 10-15 mg, and results in an inebriation that mimics the effect of the whole mushroom, both in effects and in the timeline of the experience. In doses of 50-100 mg, ibotenic acid produces virtually the same effects as 10-15 mg of muscimol. It is the prevailing assumption that ibotenic acid is not itself psychoactive, but a certain portion of it is decarboxylated to muscimol by one's body after consuming the substance. It is this muscimol fraction that produces the psychoactive effects after consuming ibotenic acid. For this reason, the mushroom is more potent if all of the ibotenic acid has been decarboxylated to muscimol prior to consumption. But that isn't the main reason that the decarboxylation reaction is important. The main issue of concern is the potential neurotoxicity of ibotenic acid. When injected into the brains of mice, it has been shown that ibotenic acid creates lesions in the brain tissue. Of course, we aren't injecting it into our brains, and I'm unaware of neurotoxicity having been demonstrated in the vase of oral ingestion. Still, there is the possibility that ibotenic acid crosses the blood-brain barrier after being consumed. If it were a matter of passive membrane diffusion, there'd be nothing to worry about since ibotenic acid is so polar; however, it is the assumption in the scientific community that both muscimol and ibotenic acid cross the blood-brain barrier by active transport (a biological process uses energy to pull them across the membrane when they otherwise wouldn't pass). To the best of my knowledge this idea has not been tested, but if it's correct than there is some cause for concern. We have no way of knowing whether the concentration of ibotenic acid that enters the cerebral fluid may be high enough to cause any neurotoxicity. If ibotenic acid is neurotoxic in humans when consumed orally, it's my suspicion that the neurotoxic effects are no worse than a night of heavy drinking, but to be honest that's completely unfounded speculation. It's also possible that ibotenic acid doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, or even if it does that it may not be in sufficient concentration to present any risk of neurotoxicity. We simply don't know. Don't let all this scare you away though; there is something we can do about the issue. If you want to play it safe (which I quite recommend), then eat some garlic whenever you are eating Amanita muscaria for its psychoactive effects (even if you think you've converted all the ibotenic acid to muscimol already, playing it safe never hurt anyone). Garlic contains a chemical called S-allyl-l-cysteine that protects against any possible neurotoxicity the ibotenic acid might have otherwise caused. Cullinary Use of the Fly Agaric The popular consciousness is strongly conditioned against using the fly agaric as an edible mushroom. often people warn against easting the mushroom, calling it poisonous or dangerously toxic. Even most mycological sources of information recommend strongly against consuming the mushroom. This is a terrible shame, as the fly agaric is absolutely delicious. In fact Japanese researchers found that muscimol is about twenty times more effective by weight than monosodium glutamate (MSG) at enhancing flavors The idea that consuming the fly agaric is dangerous and toxic is fed by two main contributing factors. First, it's from the genus Amanita, which does contain some deadly toxic mushrooms like the death cap and destroying angel. Although it's quite easy to distinguish these mushrooms from the fly agaric (as discussed in the hunting portion of this guide), and no Amanitas of the muscaria group are known to contain the deadly amatoxins, the simple fact that they're in the same genus causes many sources to issue undue and excessive warnings against consumption of the fly agaric. The other factor is that people who consume the fly agaric unaware of its psychoactive properties will often feel as though they're dying while under its influence, though they're really in no physical danger. When they awaken following the semicomatose sleep induced by the fly agaric, they feel that they have anrrowly escaped death and are lucky to be alive. The combination of these two factors has understandably led to the popular belief that the mushroom is one which should be avoided, not eaten. It should be noted that this superstition is not universal. There is at least one region of Japan where the mushroom is pickled and eaten. It is also eaten as a food in parts of Russia, France, Austria, and Italy (presumably prepared in a fashion that eliminates its potentially-unpleasant psychoactivity). As William Rubel says, "while field guides are accurate guides to classification, in the area of edibility, they can be more of a guide to local preference and prejudice than scientifically accurate." The "toxic" principles of the fly agaric are quite water-soluble. In fact, "toxic" is something of a misnomer when talking about the fly agaric, as the same chemicals considered to be toxic by those wishing to eat the mushroom for the culinary experience are the same chemicals that are prized by those consuming the mushroom for its psychoactive properties. Persons who want to avoid the psychoactive effects and use the fly agaric in their cooking will need to remove these "toxic" principles. Preparation Removing the psychoactive alkaloids from the mushroom is a very simple. Since they're water-soluble, removing them is just a simple matter of boiling. Just slice your mushrooms thinly and boil them for a few minutes in a potfull lightly salted water (about one teaspoon of salt per liter of water), then discard the water. Your mushrooms should now be ready to cook with! If you'd like to play it safe, you can repeat the above process one or two more times with fresh water. After that, there's no way that any muscimol or ibotenic acid will be left in the mushrooms. Use Once you've boiled the active chemicals out of the mushroom, you can get as creative as you want. Fly agarics go well with just about anything (with the exception of Mexican food). Sauteeing the mushrooms in butter or olive oil brings out an aboslutely delicious flavor. It goes well with garlic, onions, and many many other herbs and spices, so feel free to experiment. Sauteed fly agarics are wonderful in omelets, in stirfries, served over meat or over rice. When finely chopped, adding a layer of the sauteed mushroom (flavored with a hint of garlic) to a grilled cheese sandwich transforms it from a simple food to a mouthwateringly delicious one. It's also a great addition to an egg scramble. In fact, the mushroom pairs well with virtually any dish featuring eggs, cheese, or meat. It's a great addition to sauces as well. Adding a bit of fly agaric to tomato sauce does wonders to bring out the flavors. It's also a great flavor-enhancer when added to gravy. Without cooking it, the mushroom can be pickled, as is traditional in Japan. Either sauteed or uncooked, the mushroom can be finely chopped and added to an oil-and-vinegar dressing. It's quite a delicious salad-topper when sauteed in olive oil, with a dash of garlic added for flavor, then mixed with a roughly equal portion of balsamic vinegar, and a pinch of Italian seasonings sprinkled in. Get creative! This mushroom is truly a prime edible. Psychoactive Use of the Fly Agaric The psychoactive use of these mushrooms is a rather broad topic. There's not one "right" way to prepare these things, people have devised many effective methods. There's also not one "right" way to use them. At low doses they're a pleasant tonic. At medium doses they're a mild inebriant. And at large doses they're a visionary entheogen. A major factor that complicates the discussion is that dosage is so variable. The potency is reported to vary through the season within an area. The potency will be diminished if it rained while the mushroom was in its mature state (rain washes out some actives). It will be more potent if the mushroom got a lot of sun when it was in its mature state and the ground was amply moist when it was in its premature state. For this reason, all dosage recommendations should be taken with a grain of salt. If you're working with dried materials, it's best to powder everything to make a relatively homogenous mix, and get to know it's potency by working with it at relatively cautious dosages, and adjust from there as you get a feel for the material. If you're working with fresh-picked material, the best solution is to just be a shaman and eat what seems right (though as always, I advise caution, and working with lower doses first to get a feel for the material you have). Preparation It is "common knowledge" that the mushrooms must be dried before using to decarboxylate the ibotenic acid to muscimol. This has been challenged by some users of the mushroom though. Some self-styled shamans claim that eating the fresh raw flesh of the mushroom is best when it's available (though it's not established that ibotenic acid is neurotoxic when consumed orally, I'd always be on a heavy garlic regimen if you attempt this). More commonly when fresh mushroom is available, a user of the mushroom may cook with it (in the same sorts of dishes described under culinary use). Sauteeing the mushrooms in butter on medium-high heat unlocks their delicious flavor, but should also encourage decarboxylation of ibotenic acid. But you might as well throw in a minced clove of garlic (when the mushrooms are 3/4ths finished, the garlic sautees faster) to be on the safe side. They could also theoretically be canned or pickled with garlic and herbs for longer-term storage. For drying the mushroom as a means of preserving it, people often use the oven. But frankly, the evidence seems to indicate that as much decarboxylation will occur if the mushroom is allowed to air-dry in the sunlight as if it's baked in the oven. And in the oven (or dried over a fire), the mushroom is apt to weep juices, which have been reported to be psychoactive. Frankly I think that a preparation based on this property might be worth exploring when the mushrooms come in season again (though that's months away). Considering the preparation described in the Rig Veda, I think baking or roasting the mushroom until it weeps, squeezing the juices out of the mushroom through a muslin filter, and mixing the juice with milk and honey may be the traditional ancient soma preparation. Probably the most common method of preparing these mushrooms is as a tea. A tea can be made from dry powder, or from fresh chopped mushrooms. Considering the comments in the sulinary section above, it seems prudent to add 1/8 to 1/4 of a teaspoon of salt to the water when brewing a tea. But even on such a simple preparation, there are disagreements. Some sources claim that the mushrooms should not be boiled, as it would degrade the activity; instead they should be infused in water at 170F. I'm not sure what chemicals would degrade at during the boiling (ibotenic acid and muscimol wouldn't, they're both quite thermostable), and people have reported success with brews that were prepared on the stove at a rolling boil, so the warning against boiling may just a common myth. Some people dealing with dried specimens just eat them as-is. The taste is far from pleasant, but it's not altogether disagreeable. The texture is somewhat like jerky. I don't know that I'd recommend it, but it's an option. For other preparations, I could imagine a fly agaric fudge might not be a bad way to dose. Use As a Tonic - Low Dose At the proper dosage, the fly agaric is a pleasant tonic. It has the nice combination of being energizing while simultaneously having a distinct calming effect (remember, it's mechanism of action is related to benzodiazepines). It's also nice in the winter because it warms the body, making cold weather more bearable. Many people overlook these effects if they are looking to achieve an inebriated state but haven't taken a large enough dose, since it's so different and understated compared to the effects they were expecting. Personally, I find it to be a great seasonal tonic. Dose: 1-2 tablespoons at a time, no more than 1/2 cup throughout the day. In terms of fresh material, that's generally between 1/6 and 1/4 cap at a time, depending on the size and potency of the cap. For dried material, somewhere between 1-5 g is probably optimal with this dose. Perhaps try a tablespoon and adjust from there. Use As an Inebriant or Entheogen - Medium and High Dose At higher doses, the effects become more drastic and inebriating. Typically the experience passes through two or three stages, depending on the dose. First there's the pre-alert stage, after you've consumed it; depending on the mushrooms, there may be some queasiness or other bodily side-effects (sweating, temperature fluctuations etc.) at this stage. After 45 minutes to two hours, this typically gives way to a second stage, a disoriented inebriation, which has some notable similarities to alcohol. If the dose was high enough, after about an hour of inebriation the experience will progress into a visionary/dreaming/entheogenic stage. This can manifest in many ways, and so I'll leave any further particulars to the experience reports (see Related Reading below). Dose: Due to the high variability of fly agaric materials, it's hard to provide accurate dosing information. With fresh caps, one is often enough, or it may take three (or even more if they're small caps). With dried mushrooms, it's been reported that somewhere between 5-20g is a good dosage, depending on the potency. Mushrooms from online vendors seem to be somewhat weaker, requiring more in the range of 10-30 g to produce similar effects. The key is to start slow and get a feeling for the potency of your material before treading into deeper waters. Related Reading Some of these sources must be taken with a grain of salt. Some of the authors have pet theories about the fly agaric, and expound them a little too zealously -------------------- Good Drug Books PCPiHKAL|Rhodium
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niteowl GrandPaw Registered: 07/01/03 Posts: 16,291 Loc: |
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What kind of environments do they grow in?
Are they seen all over the U.S. --------------------
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Entropymancer Registered: 07/16/05 Posts: 10,207 |
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In the US, they grow on the whole west coast basically, the further south you are, the more localized they become to high elevations (occuring the Sierra Nevadas in California, and the Rocky Mountains). They occur along the entire east coast and gulf region. I'm not 100% sure if they occur in Arkansas, but they at least occur in the gulf states, and in Tennessee, so it's possible.
-------------------- Good Drug Books PCPiHKAL|Rhodium Edited by Entropymancer (03/07/09 12:33 AM)
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niteowl GrandPaw Registered: 07/01/03 Posts: 16,291 Loc: |
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What temp range do they like?
What do they grow on? --------------------
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Entropymancer Registered: 07/16/05 Posts: 10,207 |
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Seems like they grow in a pretty wide range of fall/winter temperatures. They don't like too much heat, but they do just fine in temperate fall conditions.
They're a mychorrhizal fungus, so they always grow together with a tree's root system. Oak and pine are the most common trees, but it can occur with other conifers and hardwoods as well. -------------------- Good Drug Books PCPiHKAL|Rhodium
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niteowl GrandPaw Registered: 07/01/03 Posts: 16,291 Loc: |
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So temps in the 30-60 degree range.
?two to three days after a rain? --------------------
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Entropymancer Registered: 07/16/05 Posts: 10,207 |
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Yeah, a couple days after rain is about right. If you're lucky, it'll stay dry while they're maturing after the initial rain, because the rain can wash some of the muscimol and ibotenic acid out of the mushroom.
-------------------- Good Drug Books PCPiHKAL|Rhodium
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niteowl GrandPaw Registered: 07/01/03 Posts: 16,291 Loc: |
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Thanks
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thedudenj Man of the Woods Registered: 08/18/04 Posts: 14,684 |
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Quote: wow i just found this , yeah they grow all over the east coast too -------------------- "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Mr. Mushrooms Spore Print Collector Registered: 05/25/08 Posts: 13,018 Loc: Registered: 6/04 |
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Pretty sick thread. Should have an entry in the Hunting sticky if it doesn't have one already.
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thedudenj Man of the Woods Registered: 08/18/04 Posts: 14,684 |
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theres stuff id like to add but im a bit lazy i was actually gona make my own outlining amanita,ayahuasca,cactus,datura,
but im lazy i gota find someone to write it for me that i can dictate it to or at least teach enough to that they could write it. i have swayed alot of people on to amanita that now love it and take them every year some picking them cause i taught them. any who with i think it should be noted under the medical uses that it fights cramps, is a pain reliever, and is also great as a seditive. its funny how it can be seditave and a energizer it really goes with what your in the mood for -------------------- "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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