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Invisiblevampirism
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Too many people afraid of guns
    #9316646 - 11/26/08 12:42 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Where does this fear really come from?

To me it suggests a fear of raw emotion, and a fear of losing control.

Guns are not going to kill you without an emotionally unstable and at least partially repressed individual using them.

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InvisibleHiei
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: vampirism]
    #9316660 - 11/26/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

guns do too much with too little effort.


--------------------
◄►۞◄►

Edited by Hiei (11/26/08 12:48 PM)

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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: vampirism]
    #9316662 - 11/26/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Dumb ass using gun to kill someone over shoes .....


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:Awesketch:

:cool: Fair is Fair :devil:

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Invisibledressel11
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: vampirism]
    #9316687 - 11/26/08 12:51 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Good question. People should not be afraid of guns, but rather be afraid of people who would use guns in a bad way. I think the media does play a big role in it though. They keep us fear and part of that fear is of guns.

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: dressel11]
    #9316727 - 11/26/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not scared of guns, I'm scared of the people who typically have guns. Eg. The Army, Cops, and Govt. Agencies. To a much lesser extent I'm scared of your typical 'thug' or w/e what not who may be carrying a gun. I won't lie, often times I'll be a little skeeved out if it's late at night and I'm I'm walking home by myself or something, but generally I'd be much more skeeved out if I'm walking by a cop tbh.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: krypto2000]
    #9316734 - 11/26/08 12:59 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I'm not scared of guns, I'm scared of the people who typically have guns.




--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleGumby
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: krypto2000]
    #9316738 - 11/26/08 01:00 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Eh, now that I live in Jersey I've realized that a lot of people here are afraid of guns. I think it's mainly because they've never owned one or used one, and the only people in this area that do have them are cops and criminals.

Fear out of ignorance, I suppose.

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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: vampirism]
    #9316863 - 11/26/08 01:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

vampirism said:
Guns are not going to kill you without an emotionally unstable and at least partially repressed individual using them.




Good thing these people don't exist.

Oh wait.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: badchad]
    #9316891 - 11/26/08 01:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

vampirism said:
Guns are not going to kill you without an emotionally unstable and at least partially repressed individual using them.




Good thing these people don't exist.

Oh wait.




Yeah, but they don't need guns to kill you and the % chance is very low. It is an irrational fear to suddenly be afraid that you'll get shot.

It's really a fear that you don't know your surroundings, or won't recognize a dangerous situation quickly enough.

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: badchad]
    #9316919 - 11/26/08 01:29 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think anyone is scared of guns. Well, except some women. I'm joking, but I pictured some older women I know who if they saw a gun they'd be scared to touch it as if it'd just randomly go off somehow.

Seriously though. I don't think anyone is really scared of guns. At best they're scared of criminals. I don't really understand the whole fear of criminals thing either, but that's kinda off topic.

I mean, there's a reason Suzy Q. doesn't own a gun but all those black guys hanging out on the corner do.

I'm not racist, well unless stereotyping is racist I guess. I don't assume all black people have guns, or even most, or for that matter even any significant portion that dress like 'thugs' or w/e that style is called, but that is still a social perception that exists because it's real. Stereotypes are not baseless, just exaggerated in numbers.

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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: vampirism]
    #9316925 - 11/26/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

vampirism said:
Yeah, but they don't need guns to kill you and the % chance is very low. It is an irrational fear to suddenly be afraid that you'll get shot.

It's really a fear that you don't know your surroundings, or won't recognize a dangerous situation quickly enough.




Guns just make the process much more efficient and simple.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: badchad]
    #9316956 - 11/26/08 01:35 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Guns just make the process much more efficient and simple.





as does a pipe bomb a machete or an automobile

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9316962 - 11/26/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

A pipebomb isn't efficient, it's wasteful.

A machete and an automobile all have legitimate uses other than killing things.


--------------------
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Offlinejunkyardgod
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: vampirism]
    #9317055 - 11/26/08 02:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Typically it's fearful people that buy guns. Other than hunting and shooting as a hobby, the only reason to own a gun is for self defense. Thus you can just as easily imply that people who own weapons fear raw emotion & loss of control too. Think about it - you only want a gun because you fear you'll need it - you only refuse to give up your gun because you fear loss of 'control'.

On the other hand it takes real bravery, honour, and nobility to stand up to a zealous, war-mongering nation with naught but your brain. It clearly takes more courage to stand up against violence than to carry a firearm around like a cocksure pinprick. Guns are for the weak-hearted, weak-minded.

Yet, sadly, even I must admit that there is no immediate way to change the scummy and violent habits that humanity has adopted. There are even situations where guns are vital/necessary to prevent more harm from happening. But realistically, weapons are harbingers of death and suffering, not stability and control.

Edited by junkyardgod (11/26/08 02:10 PM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: deCypher]
    #9317067 - 11/26/08 02:06 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
A pipebomb isn't efficient, it's wasteful.

A machete and an automobile all have legitimate uses other than killing things.




as do firearms

pipe bombs kill
machetes kill
automobiles kill

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317071 - 11/26/08 02:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Pray tell what legitimate uses firearms have besides killing or injuring living things?

(I'm not arguing for the banning of guns, understand me.  But it's crucial to understand the distinction between a tool made for a destructive purpose and those that are not.)


--------------------
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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317075 - 11/26/08 02:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

What's a firearms intended purpose other than to kill (or injure)? The only thing I can see you saying is target practice for sport. While that may be fun, I myself agree it is, target practice wouldn't exist, at least originally, if they weren't practicing to kill.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: junkyardgod]
    #9317079 - 11/26/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

junkyardgod said:
Typically it's fearful people that buy guns. Other than hunting and shooting as a hobby, the only reason to own a gun is for self defense. Thus you can just as easily imply that people who own weapons fear raw emotion & loss of control too. Think about it - you only want a gun because you fear you'll need it - you only refuse to give up your gun because you fear loss of 'control'.

On the other hand it takes real bravery, honour, and nobility to stand up to a zealous, war-mongering nation with naught but your brain. It clearly takes more courage to stand up against violence than to carry a firearm around like a cocksure pinprick. Guns are for the weak-hearted, weak-minded.






convoluted logic, define self defense

it takes more courage to fire that weapon in the face of overwhelming odds

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InvisibleZiggen
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: junkyardgod]
    #9317081 - 11/26/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

junkyardgod said:
On the other hand it takes real bravery, honour, and nobility to stand up to a zealous, war-mongering nation with naught but your brain. It clearly takes more courage to stand up against violence than to carry a firearm around like a cocksure pinprick. Guns are for the weak-hearted, weak-minded.




I'm sure glad that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, et. al., didn't think like you.


--------------------
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Kmart, it's the savings place

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: krypto2000]
    #9317100 - 11/26/08 02:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
What's a firearms intended purpose other than to kill (or injure)? The only thing I can see you saying is target practice for sport. While that may be fun, I myself agree it is, target practice wouldn't exist, at least originally, if they weren't practicing to kill.




as a means of self preservation it doesnt have to include
killing or even injuring, guns also work through intimidation
and fear, if you have a gun and I a knife I certainly wont be
sticking around but in the same regard any instrument can in
fact be a weapon for offense or defense, dont blame the gun,
blame the person that uses it and hold them responsible for
the act if it was used in negligence or the commission of a crime

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317103 - 11/26/08 02:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

junkyardgod said:
Typically it's fearful people that buy guns. Other than hunting and shooting as a hobby, the only reason to own a gun is for self defense. Thus you can just as easily imply that people who own weapons fear raw emotion & loss of control too. Think about it - you only want a gun because you fear you'll need it - you only refuse to give up your gun because you fear loss of 'control'.

On the other hand it takes real bravery, honour, and nobility to stand up to a zealous, war-mongering nation with naught but your brain. It clearly takes more courage to stand up against violence than to carry a firearm around like a cocksure pinprick. Guns are for the weak-hearted, weak-minded.






convoluted logic, define self defense

it takes more courage to fire that weapon in the face of overwhelming odds




When I read his post what came to mind was this.

Drug/black markets. Gangsters, the Mob, etc. Those people have huge ego's and need to be in control. Because they don't like the be fair and follow rules anyways (and I'm not talking about laws, but mutually respecting each other) they form enemies. I have no problem selling drugs, but if you threaten to kill me because I'm selling some drugs on your 'turf' then you have some fucking issues. If you want to keep your customers do so by lowering your prices, not threatening their lives.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Ziggen]
    #9317109 - 11/26/08 02:16 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ziggen said:
Quote:

junkyardgod said:
On the other hand it takes real bravery, honour, and nobility to stand up to a zealous, war-mongering nation with naught but your brain. It clearly takes more courage to stand up against violence than to carry a firearm around like a cocksure pinprick. Guns are for the weak-hearted, weak-minded.




I'm sure glad that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, et. al., didn't think like you.




in signing the declaration of independence all the signers
immediately became outlaws, most suffered unbearable
hardships, the were all considered traitors by the crown,
their families suffered as well, most were imprisoned, some
were executed... seems standing up bore more consequences for
the innocent

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: krypto2000]
    #9317117 - 11/26/08 02:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
When I read his post what came to mind was this.

Drug/black markets. Gangsters, the Mob, etc. Those people have huge ego's and need to be in control. Because they don't like the be fair and follow rules anyways (and I'm not talking about laws, but mutually respecting each other) they form enemies. I have no problem selling drugs, but if you threaten to kill me because I'm selling some drugs on your 'turf' then you have some fucking issues. If you want to keep your customers do so by lowering your prices, not threatening their lives.





I cant argue that, very valid point but the control issue
doesnt always fly with regard to the normal citizen

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Offlinejunkyardgod
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317124 - 11/26/08 02:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
convoluted logic, define self defense

it takes more courage to fire that weapon in the face of overwhelming odds




Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
in signing the declaration of independence all the signers
immediately became outlaws, most suffered unbearable
hardships, the were all considered traitors by the crown,
their families suffered as well, most were imprisoned, some
were executed... seems standing up bore more consequences for
the innocent





It takes a very huge amount of courage to take up arms for a cause, and then fight and die for it - in that respect I cannot deny the valour in weaponry and warfare. But it takes little to no courage to fire a gun when your life is on the line - adrenaline and every other possible survival instinct are present in such circumstances, and fear becomes a defining factor between life, death and a finger on the trigger.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: junkyardgod]
    #9317166 - 11/26/08 02:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

junkyardgod said:
It takes a very huge amount of courage to take up arms for a cause, and then fight and die for it




I'd rather fight and live but I understand the sentiment


Quote:

But it takes little to no courage to fire a gun when your life is on the line - adrenaline and every other possible survival instinct are present in such circumstances, and fear becomes a defining factor between life, death and a finger on the trigger.




I guess you've never been in that situation as it takes a
great deal of courage to pull the trigger and just as much to
hold back in those life and death situations, fear plays a
large role in every day life for many people, it's overcoming
that fear of 'what happens when I pull the trigger and kill
my assailant' that takes the courage

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Offlinejunkyardgod
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Ziggen]
    #9317176 - 11/26/08 02:34 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ziggen said:

I'm sure glad that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, et. al., didn't think like you.




Haha yeah, the world would be a completely different place if they hadn't made some of those decisions. I respect them for their difficult choices, and I have not a shred of doubt in my mind that what we see today is a direct outcome of their actions. But if America had been able to rise to such power and glory through peaceful means, I doubt it would be the pinnacle of violence, crime, debauchery, and stupidity that it is today. Mind you, America is also the self-proclaimed pinnacle of freedom, peace, safety and education too - and though contradicting, it is those facts that allow me to have great respect for your country and it's people.

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Offlinejunkyardgod
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: junkyardgod]
    #9317190 - 11/26/08 02:37 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

'response forthcoming'
I'll be back soon!

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: junkyardgod]
    #9317217 - 11/26/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

junkyardgod said:
But if America had been able to rise to such power and glory through peaceful means, I doubt it would be the pinnacle of violence, crime, debauchery, and stupidity that it is today.




we have 5 times the violent crime that canada does yet we have
12 times the population... I believe we have a more peaceful
society than some of these so called safe countries

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317230 - 11/26/08 02:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think that's a good way to judge it. I don't suspect crime rates would grow on a linear scale, that just doesn't make sense to me.

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OfflineKonyap


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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317234 - 11/26/08 02:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

People in our country tend to know when to look out or other countries i bet if you just walked around blindly into whatever area you would be met with some consequence, not everywhere but close enough

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Konyap]
    #9317248 - 11/26/08 02:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

people dont always walk into trouble, often times trouble comes to them

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OfflineBig_Whoop
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317265 - 11/26/08 02:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

mind you these statistics on crime are done in each area then mulled together to form a single one. populations with low numbers but higher crime outweigh major cities.

is the us not a carceral state with a huge portion of it people behind bars?


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OfflineYour Destination
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317279 - 11/26/08 02:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

we have 5 times the violent crime that canada does yet we have
12 times the population... 




Source?


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InvisibleMisterMuscaria
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: vampirism]
    #9317285 - 11/26/08 02:57 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The people who usually have guns are usually the last people who should have guns.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: krypto2000]
    #9317291 - 11/26/08 02:57 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I don't think that's a good way to judge it. I don't suspect crime rates would grow on a linear scale, that just doesn't make sense to me.




violent crime and firearms are not linked, it's shown that
humans are the problem and that banning people is the only
way to reduce violent crime... take a look at the UK and
Australia as well, both have higher violent crime rates than
the US and neither have legal firearms for civilian carry,
cities in the US that have prohibited firearms have also had
much higher rates, 3 of the top 10 cities in the US for
murder are cities where guns were prohibited

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317296 - 11/26/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Would you not agree that owning a gun makes it easier to kill someone than if you don't own a gun?


--------------------
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: deCypher]
    #9317310 - 11/26/08 02:59 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

supply and demand my dude supply and demand

next a lesson on the bell curve

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Your Destination]
    #9317343 - 11/26/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Your Destination said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

we have 5 times the violent crime that canada does yet we have
12 times the population... 




Source?




I'd also like to see a source. This chart here (murders only) shows Canada has 500 murders per year. The US has 16,000. That's thirty-two times Canada's number.


--------------------
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                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Edited by zouden (11/26/08 03:08 PM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Your Destination]
    #9317354 - 11/26/08 03:07 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317402 - 11/26/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Er, how come the figures in those three articles don't agree with each other? They're using different data sources, but there should still be a little bit of correlation...


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317435 - 11/26/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I don't think that's a good way to judge it. I don't suspect crime rates would grow on a linear scale, that just doesn't make sense to me.




violent crime and firearms are not linked, it's shown that
humans are the problem and that banning people is the only
way to reduce violent crime... take a look at the UK and
Australia as well, both have higher violent crime rates than
the US and neither have legal firearms for civilian carry,
cities in the US that have prohibited firearms have also had
much higher rates, 3 of the top 10 cities in the US for
murder are cities where guns were prohibited




I wasn't saying anything in relation to guns, just that I don't think if you had a country with x population and x murders that if you double the population you should expect to double the murder rate.

I don't think murder is something you can statistically put on 'people.' It's not like 1 in 10 people are going to kill someone. I think it's best to judge, and well, I really don't know, but something along the lines of the social classes, culture, world view, wealth, etc. To determine crime correlations.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: zouden]
    #9317493 - 11/26/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Er, how come the figures in those three articles don't agree with each other? They're using different data sources, but there should still be a little bit of correlation...





the correlation is that the US in fact has a lower violent crime rate per capita

you can also use the state compiled stats

http://dsp-psd.tpsgc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-205-XIE/85-205-XIE.html

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

population of canada 33million

population of the US 301million

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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317586 - 11/26/08 03:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Can you cite the actual passages on those pages where you got that stat from?  Nobody is going to read all three pages to find it.

From what I've found the US does not have 12 times the population of Canada, closer to 9x.  The first two links you posted seemed to be right-wing anti-gun control sites, using Canada's ill-conceived gun registry to argue for guns.  The third is Gallup, probably more reputable in most people's opinions, and it does not show much of a difference between US and Canadian crime rates per capita that I could see.  In fact it showed that Individuals Victimized by Crime was both 21% in Canada and the US and Individuals Victimized by Violent Crime was 2% in Canada and 3% in the US.

Britain doesn't look too good in those polls but all three countries are fairly close.

In any case, crime rates depend entirely on how much crime is reported, not how much crime actually occurs.  Rates of sexual assault jumped several hundred percent in my city this year (alarming many at first)  simply because they changed the legal definition of sexual assault.  I suspect people living in a gun culture are more likely to take the law into their own hands rather than report a crime.  Cultural differences make comparisons between national crime rates fairly meaningless.  Comparing crime rates between different years in the same country is a different story.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317592 - 11/26/08 03:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I agree, all articles indicate that. But the last article shows a very minor difference. So there's obviously a discrepancy based on the reporting method.

Regardless, the data indicates that Canada has a higher violent crime rate than the US, but a lower murder rate. This means that even though the US has less violent crimes, the ones that do occur are more likely to end in death.


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I know... that just the smallest
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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: deCypher]
    #9317609 - 11/26/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Would you not agree that owning a gun makes it easier to kill someone than if you don't own a gun?




Not really.

If we're talking about the amount of physical exertion, then of course it's easier.

But, if you've ever faced killing a person, be it for self defense at home or in war, there is a massive psychological toll taken on anyone who has to pull a trigger, or a knife. The means are irrelevant when you're actually faced with killing.

On Killing is a great book on the subject. It's required reading at most acronym agencies and military learning institutions.


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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Crasher]
    #9317616 - 11/26/08 03:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Sure, it takes a psychological toll regardless.  But if you've already made up your mind to try to kill someone and you don't have a gun, it's a bit hard to accomplish unless you feel like an up close and personal stabbing.

It's much easier to pull a trigger than to make physical contact with a blade.


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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317642 - 11/26/08 03:58 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
people dont always walk into trouble, often times trouble comes to them




A little story:

Someone deployed to Iraq. Over the course of his tour, he met with several insurgents in captures or raids while wearing his last name on his uniform. After the idiotic proceedings in the Iraqi justice system, the insurgents were released.

Several weeks later, this person's wife receives a phone call. An unknown person with a heavy middle eastern accent asks if the is the wife of deployed soldier so and so. She then receives a threat against her family.

Since then, the soldier and wife both have concealed carry permits.

This isn't a matter of mindless fear. There are very real situations where having a gun and defending yourself are just prudent planning.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317652 - 11/26/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I'm curious as to how those stats are calculated.

I can't find the Canadien rate calculation.  Its footnoted as "z", but I can't locate it.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: deCypher]
    #9317657 - 11/26/08 04:01 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Sure, it takes a psychological toll regardless.  But if you've already made up your mind to try to kill someone and you don't have a gun, it's a bit hard to accomplish unless you feel like an up close and personal stabbing.

It's much easier to pull a trigger than to make physical contact with a blade.




With a bit of physiological understanding, stabbing someone in the brachial, femoral, or carotid arteries is just as easy as pulling and firing a gun, if you've already concluded that you're going to kill someone.


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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Crasher]
    #9317677 - 11/26/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Just as easy?

Psychologically distancing yourself from the act is key to being able to get rid of gut-level feelings that might prevent the accomplishment of a task.  It's much easier to press a button that drops a bomb than it is to kill the people yourself; same goes for a knife vs. a gun.

The physical actions might be just as easy (debatable; if the victim knows anything about self defense a knife is a hell of a lot easier to defend against), but I'd speculate the psychological act of stabbing a person up close would be much harder than shooting them from a distance.


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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: deCypher]
    #9317707 - 11/26/08 04:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Just as easy?

Psychologically distancing yourself from the act is key to being able to get rid of gut-level feelings that might prevent the accomplishment of a task.  It's much easier to press a button that drops a bomb than it is to kill the people yourself; same goes for a knife vs. a gun.

The physical actions might be just as easy (debatable; if the victim knows anything about self defense a knife is a hell of a lot easier to defend against), but I'd speculate the psychological act of stabbing a person up close would be much harder than shooting them from a distance.




I agree with you to a point. Some people may be able to shoot a man from 200 meters away and never think twice about it, whereas shooting him point blank in the face would leave him with psychological problems for years.
However, there are people who understand the immediate and long term consequences of murder from the start, and to them the means  to the end are of no consequence.

I'm arguing solely for the existence of the latter, of which I'd include myself and many friends.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9317713 - 11/26/08 04:09 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
Britain doesn't look too good in those polls but all three countries are fairly close.





that's kinda shocking since we have more guns in the US than we
have people which is what my point was to begin with, guns
arent the problem

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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Crasher]
    #9317719 - 11/26/08 04:10 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

No argument there.  But are you capable of this only after training, or have you always been able to suppress your emotional feelings in favor of attaining the end?


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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317723 - 11/26/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think guns are the problem either, I just don't think they're the solution


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9317730 - 11/26/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Alcohol's both the cause and the solution to all my problems.


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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: deCypher]
    #9317734 - 11/26/08 04:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Stealing material from the Simpsons, eh


I steal mine from Seinfeld mostly


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9317745 - 11/26/08 04:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Good standards, but I have more of a wealth of hilarity to draw from in terms of seasons.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: zouden]
    #9317758 - 11/26/08 04:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Regardless, the data indicates that Canada has a higher violent crime rate than the US, but a lower murder rate. This means that even though the US has less violent crimes, the ones that do occur are more likely to end in death.




isnt violent crime the real issue, it's easy to poison
someone and that may be murder but does it constitute
violence? it's highly unlikely that the average joe on the
street is going to pump you full of cyanide while you're not
watching him but it is likely that the guy with a knife is
going to slice you because he wanted your wallet, big deal if
he didnt kill you, your liver is still on the sidewalk

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2656875.stm

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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: deCypher]
    #9317769 - 11/26/08 04:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
No argument there.  But are you capable of this only after training, or have you always been able to suppress your emotional feelings in favor of attaining the end?




That's a good question. I'd have to say that training isn't solely responsible for the ability. Honestly, the military attempts to dehumanize your enemies in order to make killing an act beyond your ability to assimilate psychologically.

but in reality, I and many others shrug off that conditioning at some point and try to interpret the acts as honestly as possible. The difficulty of assimilating these experiences internally is one of the reasons PTSD has become such a significant issue for a lot of people. 

There are instances of civilians shooting criminals that I'll post in a minute, where no training was involved.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: deCypher]
    #9317784 - 11/26/08 04:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Alcohol's both the cause and the solution to all my problems.




seems that alcohol ms be the cause of the worlds woes,
personally I think they should outlaw violence since
outlawing everything fixes the problem

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/art/celebrity-news/2008/11/19/183884/Australia-fights.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6901303.stm

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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Crasher]
    #9317790 - 11/26/08 04:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The story of concealed handgun license-holder Jeanne Assam's brave actions to stop a murderous rampage killer in Colorado Springs, Colorado's New Life Church won't soon be forgotten.

From CNSNews.com:
"She probably saved over 100 lives," the Brady Boyd, the pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, said on Monday. The female guard, a church member dressed in plain clothes, killed the gunman after he opened fire at the mega-church. Boyd said she "rushed toward the attacker and took him down in the hallway" as he entered the building.

But most Americans are totally unaware of what happened with the two other concealed handgun license-holders who confronted the killer that day.

From the Denver Post:
Larry Bourbonnais, a combat-tested Vietnam veteran, said it was the bravest thing he's ever seen.

Bourbonnais, who was among those shot by a gunman Sunday at New Life Church, watched as a [fellow- church member], a woman later identified as Jeanne Assam, calmly returned fire and killed the shooter.

"She just started walking toward the gunman firing the whole way," said Bourbonnais, who was shot in the arm. "She was just yelling 'Surrender,' walking and shooting the whole time."

Bourbonnais, 59, had just finished up a hamburger in the cafeteria on the sprawling church campus when he heard gunfire, he recalled.

He headed in the direction of the shots as frightened people ran past him looking to escape to safety.

"Where's the shooter? Where's the shooter?" Bourbonnais kept yelling, he recalled.

Near an entryway in the church, Bourbonnais came upon the gunman and an armed male church [member] who was there with his gun drawn but not firing, he said.

Bourbonnais said he pleaded with the armed [man] to give him his weapon.

"Give me your handgun. I've been in combat, and I'm going to take this guy out," Bourbonnais recalled telling the guard. "He kept yelling, 'Get behind me! Get behind me!' He wouldn't hand me his weapon, but he wouldn't do anything."

There was an additional armed [churchgoer] there, another man, who also didn't fire, Bourbonnais said.
All of the details about the their failure to engage the attacker are not given, and we shouldn't presume to second-guess anyone in this type of situation. But the incident brings to mind something that I believe every concealed handgun license-holder needs to consider:

It is every bit as important to spend time and money getting training for the mental aspects of defending oneself in a deadly force encounter as it is to spend time and money on preparing for the physical aspects (i.e. obtaining the right equipment and learning how to use it).

Enter Lt. Col Dave Grossman's powerful mindset-oriented seminar, "Bullet-Proofing the Mind."

Speaking from Experience
Lt. Col. Dave Grossman is a West Point psychology professor, Professor of Military Science, and an Army Ranger who has combined his experiences to become the founder of a new field of scientific endeavor, which has been termed “killology.” In this new field Col. Grossman has made revolutionary new contributions to our understanding of killing in war, the psychological costs of war, the root causes of the current "virus" of violent crime that is raging around the world, and the process of healing the victims of violence, in war and peace.

He is the author of On Killing, which was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize; is on the US Marine Corps’ recommended reading list; and is required reading at the FBI academy and numerous other academies and colleges.

He has testified before U.S. Senate and Congressional committees and numerous state legislatures, and he and his research have been cited in a national address by the President of the United States.

Col. Grossman is an Airborne Ranger infantry officer, and a prior-service sergeant and paratrooper, with a total of over 23 years experience in leading U.S. soldiers worldwide. Today he is the director of the Killology Research Group, and in the wake of the 9/11 terrorist attacks he is on the road almost 300 days a year, training elite military and law enforcement organizations worldwide about the reality of combat.

Buckeye Firearms Association Leader Linda Walker and I attended Col. Grossman's course on February 5, along with about 100 other men and women - what I estimate to have been about a 60/40 mix of Fulton County (Ohio) Fraternal Order of Police Lodge #135 Members and fellow Buckeye Firearms Association supporters from all over the state.

Four Steps to a Bullet-Proof Mind
Grossman spent the day walking us through the four steps to a Bullet Proof Mind:

Understanding the magnitude of the threat.
Grossman struck hard on this theme from the minute the all-day seminar began, setting the stage with two powerful questions:

"Can we take the lessons learned in blood and lives at Columbine and the World Trade Center and apply them so we'll never take this [path] again, or do we have to wait until our kids die?"

and

"Could we agree our responsibility is to keep our kids and grandkids safe?"

To set up his next theme, Grossman delivered the first of what became throughout the day a host of riveting real-life case-studies, recounting the story of a Secret Service agent who took a .22 round in a non-vital area during the attempted assination of President Ronald Reagan, yet collapsed, not because he was incapacitated but because Hollywood had taught him that he was supposed to fall down when he got shot. Thus his second step to a Bullet-Proof Mind:

Don't focus on the minority who were hurt.
Grossman advised that "stuff you think you know about combat can destroy you. ...Basing what you think you know about combat on Hollywood is like basing what you know about eloquence on Disney's 'Dumbo'."

"Hollywood loves the pity party," Grossman observed. "Don't fall for it. Chew it up, and spit it out."

Grossman's next complaint about Hollywood leads to the third step toward Bullet-Proofing the Mind:

"Hollywood creates the macho man myth."

Don't be a macho man
This third step toward a Bullet Proof Mind takes on a bit of a dual meaning. "Every good cop knows there is no shame in calling for backup," Grossman noted. He used that truth to encourage people who have survived a deadly-force encounter to call for back-up in dealing with any level of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD).

Grossman spent 75% of the all-day seminar on the fourth and final step toward a Bullet-Proof Mind:

Hunt down and eliminate every bit of denial in our lives
"Denial is the enemy," Grossman repeatedly warned. Citing examples ranging from the 9-11 terror attacks to a litany of school shootings, including one in his hometown of Jonesboro, AR. Grossman's own son was attending the school at Jonesboro that day.

"The worst thing that can happen is someone coming to kill our kids. Folks, someone is coming to kill our kids."

In effort to shake his students from their denial, Grossman noted that we are facing both Internal and External Threats The Internal Threat is that "kids and perverts are coming to kill our kids." The External Threat is that "terrorists are coming to kill our kids."

Citing the horrific attack by Islamic terrorists on the Russian school in Beslan, Russia, where after more than three days of rape and murder, more than 350 people died - half of them children.

(To get over a little more of your own denial, watch the following footage from the 2004 massacre)

To illustrate the level of denial in this country, Grossman noted that when HBO did a special on the Beslan terrorist attack, they completely omitted any mention of rape.

Grossman posed the question of how many kids have been killed by school fires in the past 25 years in all of North America. The answer, ZERO.

He then noted that in 1998 alone, school violence has resulted in 35 dead, 250,000 injured. And lest you think 1998 was an anomaly, Grossman noted 48 died from school violence in 2004.

The reason fire doesn't kill school kids, Grossman explained, is that "fire guys have set up multiple redundant, overlapping layers of protection." No one calls such extravagant fire prevention efforts into question, "yet we try to prevent violence," Grossman observed, "and people think we're crazy. DENIAL!"

"Denial has no survival value" became a repeatedly used phrase throughout the day, usually to punctuate another case study example of a place where the lack of preparation for a potential deadly force encounter (no one prepared because they were in denial) got people killed. Thanks to denial, "teachers aren't prepared for violence. ...If they had done a fraction of preparation for violence [at Columbine] as they had done for fire..."

"Why did we have to wait until after Columbine to change our training and coin the word "active shooter?" Denial!

Observing that the Virginia Tech mass-murderer chose the building he attacked because it had no ground-floor windows and only three double-doors that could be chained from the inside, Grossman asked "how many kids have to die before every class has two exits and a securable door?"

"If teachers can be fired for failure to do fire drills, how much more mean and ugly should we be to those who refuse to prepare for violence?"

The NEW Factor
Grossman noted that every one of the actions the Columbine kids committed was a felony. Yet many of their actions had been illegal for 100 years before that, with no problems. "Something is going on, and it ain't the guns," he warned.

Whatever is going on, it is world-wide phenomenon. We medicate ourselves, police ourselves, secure ourselves and imprison ourselves at rates unprecedented in history, and yet aggravated assaults and other violent attacks are at their highest. What the hell is going on?

"It is a myth that most school killers are on Ritalin," Grossman noted. "It is a lie. Only two were prescribed, and we're pretty sure they were off their meds [when they attacked]."

UPDATE: Indeed, consider this quote about the Northern Illinois University Saint Valentine's Day massacre:
"Apparently he had been taking medication," [NIU police chief Don] Grady said. "He had stopped taking this medication and he had become somewhat erratic in the last couple weeks."

"They've all trained on the video games," Grossman observed. Citing research conducted for his book Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill: A Call to Action Against TV, Movie and Video Game Violence, Grossman advised that "the average kid has practiced over 1,000,000 kills in a simulator". Video games these days are "total virtual reality simulators", "simulating rob, kill, steal for hundreds of hours on end.

Grossman displayed a series of brain scans showing that kids of violence have underdeveloped forebrains and overdeveloped midbrains. In other words, there is scientific evidence proving that video games shut down the portion of the brain that is logical and predictable. "The safety catch is turned off."

Not willing to allow anyone to think violent media is the only factor, Grossman warned students not to "get caught in a single-cause model". He stressed that while the violent media is definitely not the only factor, it is most definitely the NEW factor. "take existing factors, add one new factor, and you double or triple the risk. Take the factor away, you reduce the risk by two or three times."

Adopting the Warrior Mindset

"As the fire-firefighter knows fire, so you must know violence." Grossman noted that in Normandy, after 60 days of consecutive combat, 98% of soldiers were temporarily insane due to combat. Citing an analogy that he would use throughout the discussion on the warrior mindset, Grossman explained the Normandy statistics. "1% of people are wolves. 98% are sheep in denial. 1% are sheepdogs. ...Only a predator can face a predator."

"Sheep have only two speeds - graze and stampede. They quickly sink back into denial. ...At Virginia Tech nobody put up a fight," said Grossman. "They waited to die. The only survival trick they knew was 'Freeze'. We're raising a nation of sheep. ...Once upon a time, America was full of sheep dogs."

It is important to note that "sheep are leery of predators. ...Sheep can't comprehend the mindset of a warrior sheepdog. Sheep wake up every day like it's 9-11."

Grossman said that the great destroyer in combat is stress, and the way to defeat stress is mental readiness.
" The most complex fine motor skill you'll ever need is to shoot a human being who is trying to shoot you," the veteran advised. "If we train so much for sports games, how much more should we for our lives in combat?"

"In World War II," Grossman continued, "20% admitted to losing control of their bowels in combat, 50% to losing control of their bladder. How many more lied?" Grossman said the healthy response to extreme fear response is not to be embarrassed or humiliated. "Just change your drawers and move on."

So how does Grossman recommend we avoid the symptoms of extreme fear response?

"Inoculate. Expose yourself to the 'disease' in a controlled manner. Firefighters face fire to train, we must face stress and fear. Through force on force training. The first time you go through a force on force scenario, your heart rate can jump to over 200 bpm. The more times you do it, your heart rate comes down. Inoculation."

When under stress, Grossman explained, the human voice shows stress. There is a loss of blood flow to the vocal cords, to the hands, etc. "You need to get to a place where we call for help after combat and sound like a pilot [during an emergency landing]."

To insulate the point of how simulating stressful or fearful encounters can inoculate against the destroyer of extreme fear response in combat, Grossman told the story of deputy sheriff Jennifer Fulford. When she surprised three home invaders in a garage, she took incoming fire from all three, and was shot ten times (the bad guys were hitting her with about one in ever four shots). All the time, however, she was returning fire, and hitting with every shot. She killed one, lost use of her strong hand, did a left-handed, one-handed reload, killed a second one, and the third ran away. Today she has recovered and back on the beat. Fulford said "I am the product of my training," and went on to say that the whole incident was less stressful than her simulation training.

Having this kind of "steely determination is about having made the decision ahead of time" to kill or be killed, Grossman explained.

Grossman went on to expand on his earlier advice to seek help in dealing with the emotional aftermath of a deadly force encounter, and then examined four things held in common by people who don't get PTSD:

1) previously stress inoculated
2) internal locus of control (predator vs. rabbit)

- predator feels no combat stress, predator IS combat stress
- predator on his own turf has enormous advantage
- optimistic/ confident

Grossman advised that "one of the best things you can do to prepare for combat is to hunt", calling it "the ultimate predator neuron training for combat."

3) Faith
4) Controlled emotions

- courage is grace under pressure

Grossman noted that the goal of stress-inducing training is to avoid PTSD. "If there is no extreme fear response [feelings of intense fear, helplessness, or horror], there is no PTSD"

Surviving Gunshot Wounds

All things are ready if our minds be so"

Grossman taught the following tips for surviving gunshot wounds:

- If the threat is no longer viable, and if you've been shot, get yourself out of the line of fire. "Don't make your friends expose themselves to get to you."

- If the threat remains, stop the threat. "You can take a bullet to the heart and have 5 to 7 seconds before you will be out of combat. You're not dead! Keep going!"

Grossman's 5 D's [for Securing our Kids]

Denial
"Denial kills you physical, mentally, and financially. It has no survival value. Chew it up, spit it out, get rid of it. Moment of truth today - no more denial. Rid yourself of every ounce."

Deter
"We don't want to kill anybody. Deterrence is the goal."

As an example of a failure to use Deterrence, Grossman citing the example of the school massacre at Red Lake, MN, where a young school murderer shot his grandparents with the police-issued weapons he had stolen from his grandfather (a police officer), went to his high school and shot one of two unarmed guards who was manning the front door. "If [that guard] had been armed, odds are 10 to 1 he'd never have tried," Grossman said. "DETER. Those guards were given a responsibility for human lives without the tools to do the job! Never call an unarmed man 'security'. Call them 'run-like-hell-when-the-shooting-starts'."

Detect
"Every time he bounces off a hard target, it's a chance to Detect.

Delay
The goal is as many hard targets as possible. Once he is in the school, the only question is how many kids die."

Destroy (DEFEAT)
"We are at war. Our armed citizens and cops are the front line."

Grossman preempted any police bureaucrats who were already starting to add up the cost of the security they were imagining Grossman would recommend:

"The most important things we can do cost nothing. Our problem isn't the money, it's Denial."

The First Finger Pointed Back at You: CARRY OFF DUTY

" Every cop should carry off-duty. To the officer who scoffs at this, Grossman had these words: "There ain't nothing wrong with a cop who carries off-duty. It's you. You're a sheep. Say 'baaa!' Cops who carry off-duty aren't psychologically off - you might be! If every cop in American carries, we quadruple our coverage at $0 cost. Be there with the life-saving tools of your profession. Plan A is be a good witness when nobody is dying. Plan B is shoot him dead. But if you have no gun, you have no Plan B. If you're legally authorized to carry and you go out without your gun...everytime you see a fire-fighting sign, sprinkler system, etc., tell yourself the fire-fighter is more professional than I am."

The Second Finger Pointed Back at You: HAVE THE PROPER EQUIPMENT

Get rifles. Cops can be authorized to purchase and carry their own rifles. Pistols are just pissing at body armor." Good mindset - "if the bastards come to my town, our response time is measured in feet per second." Bad mindset - "it'll never happen here."

- Prepare a 'go- bag'. "One armed person behind cover with effective fire can make all the difference. The Long Ranger needs lots of silver bullets. The average cop will have 3 mags and be empty in a minute. Keep a loaded bag with mags ready."

- "Cops could use medevac and media choppers as assault entry vehicles. If it flies over your schools, it belongs to you. We are at war. Integrate them into the plan from the beginning."

- Fire hoses can break windows and not kill hostages, set off booby-traps, etc. Firefighters have tools to punch through walls, create climbing stairs in walls, etc. Integrate them into your plan from the beginning. Use your firefighters as your combat engineers."

- "Armed Citizens are the militia. Integrate concealed-handgun license-holders (CHLs) into your plan. We are at war. The idea that cops can do it all themselves is wrong. Use what is available to you. Integrate them into your plan from the beginning. One or two people in the first few minutes are worth 1000 people hours later."

UPDATE: Indeed, consider this quote about the Northern Illinois University Saint Valentine's Day massacre:
Police said he reloaded the shotgun in a shooting that lasted less than five minutes, before he took his own life. Police arrived on the scene within two minutes of the first reports, but it was too late to stop the gunman.

Five minutes and at least six innocent lives. If only college students were allowed their right to bear arms for self-defense on campus.

The Third Finger Pointed Back at You: GET YOUR HEART AND MIND READY
- "Stay in shape. Piss on golf. Real Americans go to the range. Choose a sport with cardio or survival skill benefit. If you see a cop carrying golf clubs, do one thing for me. Look him in the eye and say 'baaa!'" Plan A is the British Model. Disarm everyone. It's not working. Plan B is the Israeli Model. Train/ arm everyone. Israel has few golf courses and a lot of rifle ranges!"

"Three fingers pointed back at you," Grossman concluded, "say before you go ask for Federal money, do the things that can be done for free. Our problem isn't money, it's denial."

Grossman summarized the goal of his training as being better able to deter, less likely to panic, and more likely to live. A sheepdog says "I will lead the way. I will set the highest standards. ...Your mission is to man the ramparts in this dark and desperate hour with honor and courage."

This sheepdog hopes for a day when we once again are a nation full of them.


--------------------
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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Crasher]
    #9317802 - 11/26/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Found on a combatives forum:

Fear of fighting is more common than you’d think – even among experienced fighters. Only a stone-cold sociopath has no fear in a confrontation. So don’t plan on not experiencing or feeling fear. It’s going to happen.

The key is to know how to deal with it.


I’ve interviewed hundreds of hardcore combat soldiers and seasoned streetfighters and found that nearly every one of them admitted to being fearful in every single fight. Surprised? Well don’t be, because these guys understood that they could easily be killed. So, they felt fear – sometimes extreme fear -- in every confrontation.


I want to point out to you, again, that you have about 1-8 seconds to act. You don’t have the luxury of time. There’s a clear threat coming your way. You can’t even read this warning before it’ll all be over.


The bottom line here is to understand a couple of things:

Fear will be present and your little voice will begin talking “what ifs”.
You must gain External Traction.


External traction is the combination of having a plan and taking action to execute the plan when something happens… especially when the inner voice of fear starts on the “what ifs”.

The simple key to gaining External Traction is to move your thoughts to potential targets to attack him and towards and escape route.

You must initiate Target Awareness.

Seeking out and gathering “target acquisition” info almost instantly begins to focus and channel your internal dialogue – start asking questions like:

“He’s approaching me -- is he in range?”…
“Is there anything in his hands?”…
“What targets are open?”…
“Are there any friends around?”…
“Now… what targets are open?”…
“Is anyone behind me?”…
“What targets are open now?”…
“Do I have an escape route?”…
“What targets are open now?”

Hopefully you’ve noted the need to continually evaluate which targets are open. A common rookie mistake is to focus in on one target and then try to “wait” for it to open up or even strike at it when it’s not open. This is called Target Focus and it’s the wrong way to choose targets. Keep in mind the “high value” targets -- the side of the neck, throat, eyes, inside thigh, outside thigh, groin, and the angle of the chin. Always, always, maintain target awareness during a fight.


Here’s another coaching point…

Do not pay attention to the yelling and verbal threats. Do not look into his eyes. This only distracts you from your target awareness. A good streetfighter wants you to “buy into” his distractions. Mad-dog staring... insults… yelling… the whole works. It’s doubtful he knows the science of internal dialogue, but he does understand that it’s easier to win after he “gets into your head”.

So I can’t stress this external target awareness enough. It’s a simple solution to a big problem. This is why so many martial artists -- even accomplished black belts -- have their asses handed to them in a real street fight. They wake up (if they wake up) wondering what the hell happened. Well in the well-lit dojo they’ve trained with plenty of room on padded floors. They bow politely. Their opponent also bows politely, and then comes at him in a predictable manner.

But later on, in the tiny dimly-lit bathroom at the local mini-mart, this same martial artist is suddenly confronted by some big dude screaming threats, insults and foul language about taking his parking space. Confusion hits, the “internal dialogue” goes berserk, and all that cozy training flushes right down the toilet. Fade to black.

Now don’t get me wrong, studying martial arts is better than spending your time on the couch watching reruns of “Gilligan’s Island”, but these classes won’t teach you how to get around this internal dialogue or how to use fear to your advantage.

That’s why you’re here. You’re getting stuff that really works – in the “real world”. I’m giving you pearls here.
Fear is an emotion and you can not control your emotions. Don’t try to. You’re not a wuss, wimp or anything else because you feel fear. Courage and fear are different. Courage is acting and/or doing the right thing in presence of fear!

The “Four D's” Of Personal Combat:

Understanding the Four D’s of Personal Combat will help you understand how to win again even larger and more aggressive opponents. It’s crucial that you begin to understand and incorporate these tactics.

The Four D’s are;

1) Deception 2) Distraction 3) Disruption 4) Destruction

First off know this. Unlike “sport fighting”, prevailing (winning) a street fight has little to do with size, strength and physical skill. The Four D’s are the great equalizers of those factors.

1. Deception
Deception is key to fights, games and even wars! General Eisenhower used deception against Hitler to pull off D-Day and you too can use deception to gain the advantage over an opponent. The basic concept is to make your adversary think one thing while you turn the tables on him. The result is confusion, hesitation and panic.

Deception can be verbal, physical or tactical. Tell him you don’t want any trouble while your discovering your targets. Raise your hands up in a manner of submission so that they are ready and in front of your shoulders and face… AND HIS! He’ll believe that you’re in a “surrender” position but truthfully your hands will be in what is called a “forward boundary” ready for action.

About the same time you're looking him in the eye stating, "I don't want any trouble" should be about the time you unleash on him and take the offensive. Striking first is critical. It may not be politically correct, but it will be necessary to be effective. More on that later in the course.

2. Distraction
There’s a quirk in the human brain that makes it difficult to focus on more than one thing at a time.

The good news is that you can take advantage of this human limitation by redirecting… or “distracting”… your opponent’s attention away from you so you can act with a reasonable chance at catching him off-guard. The bad news is that distractions are often only effective for a split second or so… which means that unless you have an immediate follow-up plan, the distraction is futile.

A few examples of simple distractions are flipping a cigarette in their face, dropping loose change from your pocket on the ground (they’ll almost always look), spitting or spilling your drink in their face, appear to adjust your glasses and throw them in their face.

Be quick with this one. More importantly, be prepared to act the instant you gain a distraction.

3. Disruption
Disrupt his plan. He began his attack thinking he could dominate, control and humiliate you. Show him quickly and decisively that this could end very bad for him. Get him thinking about his own well being. Tom Cruse (fighter not actor) fights by the rule that, “display a complete and total disregard for your opponents well being”. This is also when you need to be unpredictable.


Some tactics…

Hit First (That’s right… we’re not in grade school anymore. Start it and finish it with the first strike advantage.)
Close the distance (unless he has a knife… in which case run! You will get seriously hurt even if you win) take the fight to him and quickly inflict damage and pain! Do not hesitate to begin attacking targets. This tactic takes away his plan and forces him to start internally thinking about a new plan.
Forward Pressure (Continue The Attack) with a relentless assault without pause. Get him back pedaling. It’s not time to be Mr. Nice Guy. Beat this guy down into both physical and mental humiliation.
4. Destruction
I just touched on some of this because the simple lesson is “kick his ass”. You didn't sign up here for lesson on the obvious though. So, here’s the skinny on effective destruction.

Think target and what to strike it with. For a true hand-to-hand fight with no improvised weapons, knives or guns… typically a soft target gets hit with a hard body part (i.e. closed fist to the gut) while a hard target gets hit by soft tool (i.e. an ear slap with an open cupped palm. (You’ll learn this in today’s video clip.)

Attack high value targets. Get this guy to understand that he picked on the wrong person and you intend to hurt him badly. Start “laying the hate” without relenting and make him succumb to the “Surprise & Shock” factor of messing with you.

You had better answer a question for yourself in advance. Are you willing to hurt a person who’s attacking you. Seems like a no-brainer huh? It’s not. You can’t afford a hesitation in the 3 to 5 seconds that this all takes place. Hesitate and you’ll pay a dear price. Perhaps the ultimate one.

Last two questions that should be running through your mind…


“What’s my target?” & “What’s my next target?”

Six High Value Targets:


Eyes – The eyes are extremely vulnerable to attack. Dirt in the eyes or a simple flick or jab can be a great equalizer to a larger more aggressive opponent.
Throat – A hard punch to the throat can be “game over”. This is better done with a blade hand (form a C with your fingers and thumb and strike with either side.) Warning: A strike to this target can be fatal.
Solar Plexus – The soft spot just below the “breast bone”. If you surprise attack him with a first strike shot here you’ll likely knock the wind out of him. This is an uncomfortable experience for anyone. While he’s still talking crap surprise attack him here and you may not only gain the surprise, it may be instantly over. Don’t bank on it and strike your next target though.
Neck – The side of the neck has a bundle of nervous and the carotid artery flowing through it. A good shock can mean “lights out”. The shoulder and head offer a good funnel system to guide your edge hand in to the right target are too. This is a high % shot.
Groin – You’d be surprised how many guys don’t immediately think something is coming here. Target this a number of ways. Kick with the shin to the groin hard. If you can get your foot in between his legs on the way up his own thighs will direct the attack on the target. You could also “Slap Grab and Twist” as our instructor James Painter will show you in the video clip for Day 3 of this course. Tomorrow you’ll see one taught by instructor Kathy Long that adds a destructive take down with it as well.
Inside Knee – The knees are delicate. Look how many 300 lbs. football players go down each year to knee injuries. From the outside in, or the inside out a good stomp or sweep kick to the knee joint with bring him down like a giant redwood tree. This takes his mobility. FYI: It works best if his foot is planted on the ground and the leg straight. If you manage a stomp kick directly to the front, it does the most damage but it isn't a high percentage shot. (Tough to target and easy for him to move out of the way.) Go after the sides… especially the inside of the knee.
Outside Thigh – Muay Thai fighters are trained… relentlessly… to target the large nerve that runs on the outside of the thigh. You’ve likely had a charlie horse before… they are pain rich and a very effective in reducing the opponents mobility.
Principles of a Fight:


Surprise (Deception & Distraction): A quick, decisive and unexpected attack will negate most of the advantages of your adversary.
Overwhelm (Disruption): Maintain a forward pressure blitz on him without pause.
Violence of Action (Destruction): Use high damage potential strikes at high value pain-rich targets.


Last note, once your work is done you’ll want to get out of the area as quickly as possible. Don’t wait for him to recover ... don’t wait for his buddies to show up... and don’t wait for emotionally “jacked up” bystanders to attack you.
Do what you gotta do, then leave the area as quickly as possible.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Offlinedoom876
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: vampirism]
    #9317878 - 11/26/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

vampirism said:
Where does this fear really come from?

To me it suggests a fear of raw emotion, and a fear of losing control.

Guns are not going to kill you without an emotionally unstable and at least partially repressed individual using them.



In all honesty, I just don't trust the judgement of people. Let people shoot one another if they want, though the innocent people, children, and animals get caught in the crossfire of idiots and ass holes.

Being quite the misanthrope, I worry more about the animals. There are too mant people like this kid I knew, Sam, who would go with his cousens in a truck and shoot things like Coyotes.

If people are so insuccure they need something that shoots a piece of metal through another thing, or so cruel as to want to kill an animal when there are supermarkets abound most places; if you lived somewhere where hunting was your only option then it would be understandable.

No, guns are not inheritly evil, people are, that's why I'm rather anti-gun.

I'm not afraid of guns though. I'd rather not be shot, but I would rather be shot then stabbed.


--------------------

Fight for a large loving government that can take care of its people, kill our criminals, and preform the huge industrial tasks our corporate overlords refuse(wanna greenwash me some more Exon?)

Not this weak travesty that let millions starve and sucks corporate cock while failing at every turn.

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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: doom876]
    #9317899 - 11/26/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If people are so insuccure they need something that shoots a piece of metal through another thing, or so cruel as to want to kill an animal when there are supermarkets abound most places; if you lived somewhere where hunting was your only option then it would be understandable.




So, instead of hunting for my food because I enjoy it and it leaves a smaller impact than cattle farms, I should stick to safeway and continue supporting the waste and conditions of many slaughterhouses?

Makes perfect sense to me.


--------------------
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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Crasher]
    #9317921 - 11/26/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crasher said:
Only a stone-cold sociopath has no fear in a confrontation.





fuck

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: doom876]
    #9317966 - 11/26/08 04:51 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

doom876 said:
In all honesty, I just don't trust the judgement of people. Let people shoot one another if they want, though the innocent people, children, and animals get caught in the crossfire of idiots and ass holes.




like the judgment of cops that shot a 5yo instead of shooting
a snake out of a tree as he intended or the cops that shot a
Brazilian citizen because they suspected him of being a
suicide bomber or the cops that kicked in some guys door he
shot 4 times striking 3 officers, one of them twice, they
fired more than 21 rounds and didnt hit a damned thing


Quote:

No, guns are not inheritly evil, people are, that's why I'm rather anti-gun.

I'm not afraid of guns though. I'd rather not be shot, but I would rather be shot then stabbed.





that makes sense, take away the guns so that there's a
better chance of you being stabbed instead

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Offlinedoom876
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Crasher]
    #9317972 - 11/26/08 04:52 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crasher said:
Quote:

If people are so insuccure they need something that shoots a piece of metal through another thing, or so cruel as to want to kill an animal when there are supermarkets abound most places; if you lived somewhere where hunting was your only option then it would be understandable.




So, instead of hunting for my food because I enjoy it and it leaves a smaller impact than cattle farms, I should stick to safeway and continue supporting the waste and conditions of many slaughterhouses?

Makes perfect sense to me.



Buy local and organic meat rather then killing more creatures.
I honestly don't know how someone can kill something without feeling somehow wrong.


--------------------

Fight for a large loving government that can take care of its people, kill our criminals, and preform the huge industrial tasks our corporate overlords refuse(wanna greenwash me some more Exon?)

Not this weak travesty that let millions starve and sucks corporate cock while failing at every turn.

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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9317988 - 11/26/08 04:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
seems that alcohol ms be the cause of the worlds woes,
personally I think they should outlaw violence since
outlawing everything fixes the problem





Was alcohol the cause of me not understanding pretty much anything said there. If so, was it cause I'm too drunk to understand, or cause you were too drunk to type? :tongue2: :shrug:

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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: doom876]
    #9317996 - 11/26/08 04:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Buy local and organic meat rather then killing more creatures.
I honestly don't know how someone can kill something without feeling somehow wrong.




it's pretty easy. We've been at it for centuries, and I feel a lot better killing food for myself than letting someone else do it.

I don't know how people can embrace ethical views that are in opposition to their nature.


--------------------
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Offlinedoom876
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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Crasher]
    #9318082 - 11/26/08 05:09 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crasher said:
Quote:

Buy local and organic meat rather then killing more creatures.
I honestly don't know how someone can kill something without feeling somehow wrong.




it's pretty easy. We've been at it for centuries, and I feel a lot better killing food for myself than letting someone else do it.

I don't know how people can embrace ethical views that are in opposition to their nature.



My nature is to not-kill. Being an "intelligent" species we don't so much have nature as "choices". Sadly, some people have a bloodlust that is no longer needed.


--------------------

Fight for a large loving government that can take care of its people, kill our criminals, and preform the huge industrial tasks our corporate overlords refuse(wanna greenwash me some more Exon?)

Not this weak travesty that let millions starve and sucks corporate cock while failing at every turn.

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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: Crasher]
    #9318116 - 11/26/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crasher said:
Quote:

Buy local and organic meat rather then killing more creatures.
I honestly don't know how someone can kill something without feeling somehow wrong.




it's pretty easy. We've been at it for centuries, and I feel a lot better killing food for myself than letting someone else do it.

I don't know how people can embrace ethical views that are in opposition to their nature.




There is no reason to believe that our nature suggests the smartest or most ethical actions for us to take.

As a homo sapien, violence, greed, and hate are all in my nature.  But that does not mean my behavior is necessarily violent or greedy or hateful.  Our instincts give us impulses that we may not want to embrace.  My nature makes me want to fuck and impregnate every reasonably attractive woman I see, but it's probably a good idea to refrain from pursuing that natural impulse.

By nature we are thugs, animals, cavemen.  That is why it's so hard for us to get along.  We advance more quickly when we question our nature and when we consciously change our behavior, IMO.  Our 'nature' reflects our past, not our future or even our present.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: doom876]
    #9318141 - 11/26/08 05:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

No, guns are not inherently evil, people are...




Quote:

we don't so much have nature as "choices"




Quote:

My nature is to not-kill.




Which is it? How can we been anything inherently if it's a matter of choice?

How is your nature disposed to not kill if it's a matter of choice?

Quote:

some people have a bloodlust that is no longer needed.




Is that inherent or choice? If it's choice, how can you conclude it's no longer needed?


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Re: Too many people afraid of guns [Re: krypto2000]
    #9318539 - 11/26/08 06:39 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
seems that alcohol ms be the cause of the worlds woes,
personally I think they should outlaw violence since
outlawing everything fixes the problem





Was alcohol the cause of me not understanding pretty much anything said there. If so, was it cause I'm too drunk to understand, or cause you were too drunk to type? :tongue2: :shrug:




I murder the english language, for that I should be shot

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