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InvisibleVoido
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Ethics
    #9314561 - 11/25/08 11:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

To clone or not to clone, that is the question. Regarding organ replacements and an individuals right to purchase this kind of health INSURANCE. Sound off


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- V


Edited by Voido (11/25/08 11:54 PM)


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OfflinePatisotagami
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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9314810 - 11/26/08 12:50 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

why not? go for it. it isn't going to happen for years though. Our cloning techniques are not advanced enough yet to grow a human organ. We can clone human cells... but to clone a working organism without having it grow up in a living, functioning organism (like nature intended it to), is VERY difficult.

Imagine growing a heart, but none of the blood vessels that are connected to it. Then what about the parts of your body attached to the capillaries? You can't separate one body system from another, because the protein interchange from one system to another is so vital to gene transcription. In order to grow the heart, you need signals from the brain, and other surrounding tissues and organs telling it to grow correctly.

It is VERY hard to emulate all of these factors in a laboratory.


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EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9314949 - 11/26/08 01:14 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Voido said:
To clone or not to clone, that is the question. Regarding organ replacements and an individuals right to purchase this kind of health INSURANCE. Sound off




Cloning has already been done..
People that did it are those with negative intentions...
Therefore it will never be available for the use which you suggest being that it would a positive one of a helping kind.
Even if you have to pay..

Even if it was available and "offered".. i would still say NO.

The tree of life is not something to be played with :smile:
It has never had good results..


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics [Re: Patisotagami]
    #9315965 - 11/26/08 10:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

smmu said:
why not? go for it. it isn't going to happen for years though. Our cloning techniques are not advanced enough yet to grow a human organ. We can clone human cells... but to clone a working organism without having it grow up in a living, functioning organism (like nature intended it to), is VERY difficult.

Imagine growing a heart, but none of the blood vessels that are connected to it. Then what about the parts of your body attached to the capillaries? You can't separate one body system from another, because the protein interchange from one system to another is so vital to gene transcription. In order to grow the heart, you need signals from the brain, and other surrounding tissues and organs telling it to grow correctly.

It is VERY hard to emulate all of these factors in a laboratory.




Don't worry about our capabilities, its just hypothetical for now, the question was is it ethical? And you say Yes. Why?


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- V


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9316005 - 11/26/08 10:21 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
The tree of life is not something to be played with :smile:
It has never had good results..




As humans capable of plucking the apples off the tree of life for the benefit of medicine, why shouldn't we?  Are you suggesting that we avoid helping others who might die for lack of an organ donor?


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InvisibleArden
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Re: Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #9316172 - 11/26/08 11:08 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Possessing the technology to clone for the benefit of others, and choosing not to, is more immoral than sticking our head in the sand and blindly accepting our fear about our very real ability to manipulate the natural world.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #9316257 - 11/26/08 11:30 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

jivJaN said:
The tree of life is not something to be played with :smile:
It has never had good results..




As humans capable of plucking the apples off the tree of life for the benefit of medicine, why shouldn't we?  Are you suggesting that we avoid helping others who might die for lack of an organ donor?




I am suggesting that we  never needed the modern  kind of medicine in the first place...
People drink aya ..and can cure cancer and genetic disorders.. Yet the majority of people who are diagnosed with cancer undergo chemo- therapy ?
It is my opinion that one is fully responsible, and fully capable of maintaining good health , and curing/healing himself if something wrong happens along the line..

Like i said..
Cloning is a technology we have already used..
You see clones on the tv every day.. if you watch tv.
It will not be used for healing purposes unless your life is valuable to the people in power holding this knowledge..

But.. lets say that it isnt..
Lets Imagine  this would be a great scientific breakthrough, and that i was dying for lack of an organ donor ..
I would avoid being helped in this manner..
As for others.. I dare not suggest.
I need only remind people that every illness is a product of an "Issue" one might have with his-self.
Its not all bacterial , viral and cold scientific substance battling..
Your consciousness plays the biggest role in your health and general well-being.


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics [Re: Arden]
    #9316269 - 11/26/08 11:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Arden said:
Possessing the technology to clone for the benefit of others, and choosing not to, is more immoral than sticking our head in the sand and blindly accepting our fear about our very real ability to manipulate the natural world.




I would say that it is more moral perhaps. Because under the most scrutiny from the wealthy, with the possession of capable cloning abilities, if we refused the birthing and raping of conscious humans, that would come with more moral value, then just now when we don't have the problem/choice at our doorstep, and can just slide over to whatever side our gut or quick reasoning takes.


--------------------
- V


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9316297 - 11/26/08 11:37 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:


I am suggesting that we  never needed the modern  kind of medicine in the first place...
People drink aya ..and can cure cancer and genetic disorders.. Yet the majority of people who are diagnosed with cancer undergo chemo- therapy ?
It is my opinion that one is fully responsible, and fully capable of maintaining good health , and curing/healing himself if something wrong happens along the line..




lol wtf?


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- V


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9316330 - 11/26/08 11:41 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It is my opinion that one is fully responsible, and fully capable of maintaining good health , and curing/healing himself if something wrong happens along the line..


And if the bones in your leg are compound fractured in several places and you aren't able to clean the wound fast enough and infection sets in?

Enjoy your agonizing death.

I'm not saying however that you don't have a good point if modified by reason. We certainly give up most of our power to questionable authority figures.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleArden
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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9316356 - 11/26/08 11:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I need only remind people that every illness is a product of an "Issue" one might have with his-self.
Its not all bacterial , viral and cold scientific substance battling..
Your consciousness plays the biggest role in your health and general well-being.




Consciousness does play a vital role in regulating immune functioning and negating one's susceptibility to illness. But consider what external factors contribute to consciousness. Family history, genetic makeup, prenatal environment, culture, age, nutrition, etc. "Non-self" components still contribute to your illnesses (i.e. consciousness), despite your assertion that it's not all bacterial or viral.

Quote:

Because under the most scrutiny from the wealthy, with the possession of capable cloning abilities, if we refused the birthing and raping of conscious humans, that would come with more moral value, then just now when we don't have the problem/choice at our doorstep, and can just slide over to whatever side our gut or quick reasoning takes.




Rephrase that for me, please. I don't understand.


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics [Re: Arden]
    #9316386 - 11/26/08 11:50 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It's sort of a Kantian stance, when the problem is harder (in this case when it is more prevalent in the future, if ever so) the choice has has more moral worth. So when it is possible to clone, and the wealthy are ranting and raving to get body doubles to insure their health, it will be more moral if we refuse to let them do so, because that choice is heavier. We would base that choice on that those body doubles will be conscious, and their production to die/be raped of organs, is immoral. You see?


--------------------
- V


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9316394 - 11/26/08 11:52 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Voido said:
To clone or not to clone, that is the question. Regarding organ replacements and an individuals right to purchase this kind of health INSURANCE. Sound off




They are my organs within my body. Provided the sale of them involves my consent and the buyer's consent, it would be absurd to call it unethical.  I would argue that there are no more ethics involved than the sale of groceries or other goods, provided mutual consent exists.

Edit: Whoops, misread the above topic.

I don't see why organ cloning should possibly be unethical. As long as we're not stealing people's organs without their approval, I'm not entirely sure where there's an issue.


Edited by Redstorm (11/26/08 11:53 AM)


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Ethics [Re: Arden]
    #9316419 - 11/26/08 11:55 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well.. Seems that we come from different places doesnt it ? :smile:

---Family history, genetic makeup, prenatal environment, culture, age, nutrition, etc.---

These are all notions that in my opinion play no significant role... except nutrition

You have to understand..
I see "family" as separation
genetic makeup as a lie..
Culture as a lie
age as unimportant

I dont believe in "external" factors or "Non-selves"

All is one

If this sounds vague and far-fetched i would be more than happy to elaborate..
As for now.. i was simply stating my point of view in a couple sentences..
An answer.. in accordance to a question.

Thank you


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibleArden
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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9316427 - 11/26/08 11:57 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It's sort of a Kantian stance, when the problem is harder (in this case when it is more prevalent in the future, if ever so) the choice has has more moral worth. So when it is possible to clone, and the wealthy are ranting and raving to get body doubles to insure their health, it will be more moral if we refuse to let them do so, because that choice is heavier. We would base that choice on that those body doubles will be conscious, and their production to die/be raped of organs, is immoral. You see?




Could be.

But I wasn't referring to cloning entire persons (e.g. cosmetic doubles), which is more the subject matter of science fiction novels and the unsupported fears of people who object against medical cloning.

I was referring to cloning the physical constituents of the body. Unless you suppose consciousness resides in vital organs, follow Kant's categorical imperatives and support helping sick people.


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics [Re: Arden]
    #9316549 - 11/26/08 12:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No yea, this is what the thread is about, cloning entire doubles to replace ones organs.


--------------------
- V


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9316566 - 11/26/08 12:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

How about cloning triples?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics [Re: Icelander]
    #9316573 - 11/26/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No. How about not.


--------------------
- V


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9316597 - 11/26/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well how about clowning then?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics *DELETED* [Re: Voido]
    #9316610 - 11/26/08 12:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by Veritas

Reason for deletion: Let's keep it impersonal, please.



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- V


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9316632 - 11/26/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
genetic makeup as a lie..




Quote:

jivJaN said:
People drink aya ..and can cure cancer and genetic disorders..




My respect for your ideas just dropped significantly.  Do you have any sources to prove these claims, or are you basing these on intuition?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #9317000 - 11/26/08 01:48 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

jivJaN said:
genetic makeup as a lie..




Quote:

jivJaN said:
People drink aya ..and can cure cancer and genetic disorders..




My respect for your ideas just dropped significantly.  Do you have any sources to prove these claims, or are you basing these on intuition?




My respect for your reading , and concentration skills would have then accordingly dropped also..
But it didnt.. My respect is something each being can take for granted..for i respect all creation in all forms..

Second take :
"If this sounds vague and far-fetched i would be more than happy to elaborate..
As for now.. i was simply stating my point of view in a couple sentences..
An answer.. in accordance to a question."


-------------------------
What is a source , other than a following projection of knowledge obtained from a previous 3rd party/source in our case..
I believe the concept of intuition needs to be clarified within limits of language before i can answer that part of the question.
And furthermore ..
I am not here to prove..
Can anybody prove anything ?
This is not the purpose of debate..
The question as it is stated , instigates various responses within the yes/no reaction "painted" with opinion,reason etc.. for the *yes or *no.
I was simply implying that for me to participate in a debate such as this , my general point of view should be taken into consideration in order to achieve  less distortion of my statements ,and i have done this in a very "vague" manner and suggested an elaboration from my part on it..
I have percieved "genetic make-up" as one of a hereditary value from the point of view , of the one that has stated the same..
Therefore my response was, that this is something , that i wouldnt go along with being that i believe that the 3rd density experience is in some ways programmed by the individual before undergoing incarnation..
The genetic properties of each and every one of us IMO are basically the same in accordance to the experiences "set-up" for further learning on this planet , in this density , for whatever purpose it has been arranged.
Therefore.. if one would have a "genetic impairment" as we like to call it , it would be something to be overcome with knowledge..
My perspective is that knowledge , wisdom , enlightenment.. call it what you will ,  is a source in itself, for the one pursuing an already set "goal".

Independent of my "intuitive" thinking and reasoning ,if you perceive it as such , there is substantial "evidence" of ayahuascas healing properties ..
Here is a nice example if i have failed to meet the requirements for understanding on your behalf and others participating..

http://www.hottrainingmaterials.com/plant-medicine/plant-medicine.php

I believe this has strong relevance to the topic and anybody participating should read it.

Thank you


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9317031 - 11/26/08 01:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
Can anybody prove anything ?
This is not the purpose of debate..




This is true; perhaps I should have said support--but the meaning remains the same.  Arguments must be backed up to be persuasive.

Quote:

Therefore.. if one would have a "genetic impairment" as we like to call it , it would be something to be overcome with knowledge..
My perspective is that knowledge , wisdom , enlightenment.. call it what you will ,  is a source in itself, for the one pursuing an already set "goal".




This is also true, but this is far from saying that genetic make-up is a lie; as this implies that any genetic traits can be surmounted through power and knowledge alone, when this is false.  If I don't have good leg muscle genes, I will never be able to be an Olympic runner no matter how hard I practice or visualize.

Quote:

Independent of my "intuitive" thinking and reasoning ,if you perceive it as such , there is substantial "evidence" of ayahuascas healing properties ..
Here is a nice example if i have failed to meet the requirements for understanding on your behalf and others participating..

http://www.hottrainingmaterials.com/plant-medicine/plant-medicine.php




Ayahuasca has great healing power, sure.  But don't exaggerate this to the point of saying that it can cure cancer or cure genetic disorders unless you can have verifiable scientific research to back this up.

It's particularly damning when the title of the link you posted says in the first few sentences:

Quote:

Finding God Through Medicine Plants
a work of fiction




Don't believe everything you read.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #9317037 - 11/26/08 01:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I agree the title may give people the wrong idea..
It is explained in the writings..
Have you read it ?


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9317110 - 11/26/08 02:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, it was a pretty good story, but still provides no evidence towards ayahuasca curing genetic disorders (let alone cancer), particularly when I find the passage riddled with information that makes me inclined to discredit the author as knowledgeable.

Quote:

Now listen, I’m not kidding about the “devil”. I have seen enough in life to know that dark entities abound in this cosmos, and given the opportunity they will attach themselves to you.




Quote:

One of the largest issues of my life had been a difficulty I had while in the womb of my mother. From extensive work I had done in prior years (hypnosis, psychics, past life regression), it had been learned that I had made an agreement to incarnate into this life and be raised by the woman who was carrying me. In about the seventh month of the pregnancy however, my mother chose not to complete that agreement and instead decided to place me for adoption. I received this information in the womb and was less then pleased by it. I’ve learned over the years that this experience was at the root of several of my life long problems.




Quote:

Process of elimination was narrowing the list of possible causes of my ailments to simply being karma I was working off in this lifetime.




Yeah, okay.  This is New Age, pseudo-scientific metaphysics.  Not the mark of a credible source.

Quote:

I further came to realize that the state of mind was not simply chemically inspired. This wasn’t just the pleasure centers in my brain being stimulated. It was beyond that. My sense was that I was experiencing a state of, or at least a form of, True Reality. Wow. (A bit of corroboration for that premise is that plant medicine can be taken day after day and the drinker will always enter the altered state. Not true for say, LSD, which as Timothy Leary demonstrated, simply will not get you high at some point regardless of the amount you take).




The reason why ayahuasca works is because of the chemical dimethyltryptamine.  The experience might have been sublime, sure, but it's still chemically inspired, and this is no valid reason to flaunt "plant" medicine over LSD when both can produce divine experiences.

Quote:

I had been working with a Naturopath for many years who used “muscle testing” (applied kinesiology) to determine dosages for the many supplements I had been taking. She had proved herself deadly accurate on so many occasions that I trusted her abilities without question. She had actually been able to draw information from my body over the years as to which organs had genetic defects, and I logged all such information meticulously. I went to see her the day after the journey. All I told her was that I had done a “tea healing ceremony”. I had her test me for genetic defects and I came up completely clean.




:lol:.  So an applied kinesiologist is capable of testing for genetic defects in an organ?  This again is alternative medicine veering into quackery.  If I'm expected to believe that ayahuasca can cure a genetically inherited disorder, I would like to see verifiable information from a reputable doctor, not from a practitioner of a method that's been criticized on theoretical as well as empirical grounds as being a pseudoscience. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_Kinesiology

Again, I have no doubt that ayahuasca can be incredibly beneficial when it comes to healing psychological disorders and even possibly physical ones, but genetically inherited disorders and cancer are at a completely different level, and exaggerating the benefits of such may delude countless seekers and mystics into pouring their money into the pockets of quacks while they could be receiving proper treatment through established medical care and chemotherapy.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #9317363 - 11/26/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

First of all i would like to correct you in assuming that ayahuasca is so strongly related to DMT.
This would be the modern approach of obtaining orally active dmt with mao inhibitor..
The vine itself is what makes ayahuasca what it is , and thus name has been given accordingly..
The dmt is used in small amounts to "give color to the visions"
The healing properties are attributed to the vine.

Second..
Do we have "evidence" of human cloning ? No.. but we are still talking about it.
How frequently does chemo-therapy actually cure cancer  instead of just prolonging life in this state of "health" ? Look at statistics if they are a "credible source".
What is a credible source for that matter , honestly ?
Who is lying ?
Who is telling the truth ?
Who is lying because they believed the previous lie  and this just stretches on , and on to the point in which one decides what to believe out of all which is available for interpretation.

I do not wish to steer people towards conspiracy theories ...but in order to know the truth .. The first you thing you must do is realize you have been lied to ..
Do you really think we cant cure cancer ?
Do you really think we havent cloned people ?
Do you really Believe that ?


It is my opinion that we are here precisely because we notice a glitch in this reality we make , or that is presented to us ..
It is open mindedness which has been a catalyst for this debate to take place in the "first place" :smile:

We should keep it like that..

established medical care and conventional science have no place here IMO..
If you take for granted the conventional and established.. the debate is pointless.
The philosophy irrelevant , and the only argument one can make is *yes or *no without the color of personal perception.

It is all about perception..

When it comes to the "demons" getting attached to certain people..
I have seen it..
Does that prove anything ?
No.
It cant.. because its my approach..
Maybe its bent perspective , coloring the distortion with meaning i dont yet understand.
Maybe im mentally ill.
Maybe im right and all of the people who dont believe it are actually mentally ill...
Can you say what is the "actual truth" ?
You can.. But you will never get everyone to go along with it..
So many options.. and all of them would then after be products of other perspectives getting involved.
I say..
Everything is possible..
EVERYTHING.
We are here to present the possibilities we deem more probable than others.
And i say No to cloning..
And yes to plant medicine..
For it is not the plant that is healing you..
Its You..
And if you knew how.. you wouldnt need the plant.
Many of us dont know.. So the plant can teach us.
This is why , and how its done if it is done.

I promote [spiritual , mind and body] health as being dependent on each other..
Balance .. is Health.

Even if all i say is just BS..
Look at it this way..
If i believe im not sick anymore .. I wont be.
And doctors can take my blood do all the tests they want.. If i dont buy it i dont buy it..
And if we stop buying.. they stop selling.
:smile:

Thank you..
p.s. i really feel there is much more to say on this subject than i have put effort into ..
I apologize if my statements are unclear or confusing, or if they lack coherence.. this is because of the broadness of the subject i present from my standing and i still dont have answers to all my questions.
The questions.. keep arising..
This is why i am here.


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9317545 - 11/26/08 03:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Let's keep it impersonal, please. ~V


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- V


Edited by Veritas (11/26/08 06:23 PM)


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Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9317557 - 11/26/08 03:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
Do you really think we cant cure cancer ?
Do you really Believe that ?




Yes.

Quote:

jivJaN said: If i believe im not sick anymore .. I wont be.




Too bad prayer doesn't keep AIDS away.


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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9317727 - 11/26/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)


It is your thread, therefore your question.
My answer is the ranting.
I apologize.
I will remove myself from this debate.
Perhaps, it is better to work within the limits of your understanding , along with those who share these properties.
And i do not mean this in a belittling way.
Simply in a manner of personal perception , projection of personal belief systems.
I hope you will not find answers to your questions.. Rather ,find that the question itself is far more important to evaluate.
Thank you


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


Edited by Veritas (11/26/08 06:24 PM)


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Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9317955 - 11/26/08 04:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Very big of you.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9318241 - 11/26/08 05:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
Quote:

Voido said:
Your obviously in a rut, nobodies going to judge you, go along your business just don't rant about aya curing cancer and genetic diseases, mabye read some books on how to present arguements in philosophy instead of rambling aimlessly, question to question, or else I"ll put you in the same category as pinchbeck



It is your thread, therefore your question.
My answer is the ranting.
I apologize.
I will remove myself from this debate.
Perhaps, it is better to work within the limits of your understanding , along with those who share these properties.
And i do not mean this in a belittling way.
Simply in a manner of personal perception , projection of personal belief systems.

I hope you will not find answers to your questions.. Rather ,find that the question itself is far more important to evaluate.
Thank you




Objecting your futile designed arguments as well as your proclamation that a psychedelic plant cures cancer and genetic diseases is working within the limits of my understanding and belief systems? In a philosophical debate in the 21st century? What!? Are you trolling?


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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9318396 - 11/26/08 06:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Voido said:
Quote:

smmu said:
why not? go for it. it isn't going to happen for years though. Our cloning techniques are not advanced enough yet to grow a human organ. We can clone human cells... but to clone a working organism without having it grow up in a living, functioning organism (like nature intended it to), is VERY difficult.

Imagine growing a heart, but none of the blood vessels that are connected to it. Then what about the parts of your body attached to the capillaries? You can't separate one body system from another, because the protein interchange from one system to another is so vital to gene transcription. In order to grow the heart, you need signals from the brain, and other surrounding tissues and organs telling it to grow correctly.

It is VERY hard to emulate all of these factors in a laboratory.




Don't worry about our capabilities, its just hypothetical for now, the question was is it ethical? And you say Yes. Why?




because assuming that you do not have to create a conscious person in order to harvest a singular organ from them, why would i care if some rich asshole wants to spend a billion dollars creating a second heart for herself? I wouldn't want to spend two lifetimes in this world, but if someone else wants to, that is THEIR prerogative.

"My choice is what i choose to do,
and if i'm causing no harm why should it bother you?
Your choice is who you choose to be
so if you're causing no harm, you're alright with me."

Why should I butt my head in to someone else's business? Ethics? Morals? These are all imaginary creations of the human mind. Come on! They don't actually exist outside of our heads. If we can create a new liver for a dying billionaire who wants another one, do I think that he should spend all that money on a new one? No... I think he should die and give his money to charity or the rainforest. But realistically, people for one reason or another love their money. It's like clutching a balloon with its skin peeled off (anyone get the reference?). Though it is meaningless, the money won't bring them happiness, maybe they will trade it in for a new liver. Ideally, they would use it to buy 100,000 immunizations for children in africa... but then again, why are the africans' lives any more important or worthwhile than that one person's?


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Re: Ethics [Re: Patisotagami]
    #9318478 - 11/26/08 06:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

smmu said:


because assuming that you do not have to create a conscious person in order to harvest a singular organ from them, why would i care if some rich asshole wants to spend a billion dollars creating a second heart for herself? I wouldn't want to spend two lifetimes in this world, but if someone else wants to, that is THEIR prerogative.

"My choice is what i choose to do,
and if i'm causing no harm why should it bother you?
Your choice is who you choose to be
so if you're causing no harm, you're alright with me."

Why should I butt my head in to someone else's business? Ethics? Morals? These are all imaginary creations of the human mind. Come on! They don't actually exist outside of our heads. If we can create a new liver for a dying billionaire who wants another one, do I think that he should spend all that money on a new one? No... I think he should die and give his money to charity or the rainforest. But realistically, people for one reason or another love their money. It's like clutching a balloon with its skin peeled off (anyone get the reference?). Though it is meaningless, the money won't bring them happiness, maybe they will trade it in for a new liver. Ideally, they would use it to buy 100,000 immunizations for children in africa... but then again, why are the africans' lives any more important or worthwhile than that one person's?





Ethics and morals are imaginary creations? Are you saying their meaningless? Because of ethics and morals there aren't slaves in our country and there arent  entire races being gassed by the millions in other ones.... If some rich guy pays people to have babies that will become his slaves, you don't think that's immoral or unethical? So to each his own on these matters? Wake up....


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- V


Edited by Voido (11/26/08 06:29 PM)


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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9320462 - 11/27/08 01:26 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.davekopel.com/env/entibet.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/27/world/asia/27mumbai.html?_r=1&hp


There are still entire races being slaughtered around the world today. Take a look at a world-news outlet that isn't owned by US interests.

I'm not saying that ethics & morals are not <b>useful</b> in our society... I was stating that they were fundamentally creations of humans; the universe has existed for billions of years (or an undefined amount of time) without humans' moral code... and if we ever perish from the Earth, the universe will continue existing.

This is all.


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Re: Ethics [Re: Patisotagami]
    #9320495 - 11/27/08 01:37 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:  Unfortunately emotions often trump logic.


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Re: Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #9321486 - 11/27/08 10:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
:thumbup:  Unfortunately emotions often trump logic.




lol is that referring to me?


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Re: Ethics [Re: Patisotagami]
    #9321512 - 11/27/08 10:21 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

smmu said:
http://www.davekopel.com/env/entibet.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/27/world/asia/27mumbai.html?_r=1&hp


There are still entire races being slaughtered around the world today. Take a look at a world-news outlet that isn't owned by US interests.

I'm not saying that ethics & morals are not <b>useful</b> in our society... I was stating that they were fundamentally creations of humans; the universe has existed for billions of years (or an undefined amount of time) without humans' moral code... and if we ever perish from the Earth, the universe will continue existing.

This is all.





How is saying:

"Why should I butt my head in to someone else's business? Ethics? Morals? These are all imaginary creations of the human mind. Come on! They don't actually exist outside of our heads. If we can create a new liver for a dying billionaire who wants another one, do I think that he should spend all that money on a new one? No... I think he should die and give his money to charity or the rainforest. But realistically, people for one reason or another love their money. It's like clutching a balloon with its skin peeled off (anyone get the reference?). Though it is meaningless, the money won't bring them happiness, maybe they will trade it in for a new liver. Ideally, they would use it to buy 100,000 immunizations for children in africa... but then again, why are the africans' lives any more important or worthwhile than that one person's?"

stating that: "I'm not saying that ethics & morals are not <b>useful</b> in our society... I was stating that they were fundamentally creations of humans; the universe has existed for billions of years (or an undefined amount of time) without humans' moral code..." and if we ever perish from the Earth, the universe will continue existing.

LOL.

Those events are nowhere close to organized genocide of the Holocaust i was referring to, or to the African slaves. Even if that article on Tibet has all its fact right, which I highly doubt. For the years and years humans have existed, we've fought and killed eachother, sure, and have done incredibly fucked up things, but now in a organized society, morals and ethics is what stops us from doing these things again. Don't flip flop, or present the ideas clearer, because the first thing you said and the last, are completely different.


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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9321739 - 11/27/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry, I'll try being even more clear about this by breaking it down into points:

-Morals and ethics do not exist outside of the human realm.
-There is still a very large slave trade going on today. Just because you aren't interacting with people who have morals that aren't aligned with your own doesn't mean that they don't still exist.
-I do think it is fine for someone to get a cloned organ, if it doesn't mean that they need to create a conscious organism in order to do so. However, would I personally ever do such a thing? Absolutely not, because I think it is ridiculous to want to prolong life so much further than the natural progression.

Now about what you said...

You claimed that "now in an organized society, morals and ethics is what stops us from doing these things again," when in reality, these atrocities are happening constantly. They never stopped. There are STILL horrible people in the world, just like there always have been. But at the same time, there are also wonderful people in the world.
You can't make sweeping generalizations and state things like how the world "used" to be immoral and now is moral. Not only is this untrue, but what is moral to YOU may not be moral to someone ELSE.
I'm not trying to attack your view, its just the logic that you are using seems flawed. If you can present your argument in a way that takes a more advanced and understanding world view into account, I will completely accept it as a sound argument.

We're not enemies here, just people having a conversation. No need to get so riled up.


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Re: Ethics [Re: Patisotagami]
    #9321917 - 11/27/08 12:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

smmu said:
Sorry, I'll try being even more clear about this by breaking it down into points:

-Morals and ethics do not exist outside of the human realm.
-There is still a very large slave trade going on today. Just because you aren't interacting with people who have morals that aren't aligned with your own doesn't mean that they don't still exist.
-I do think it is fine for someone to get a cloned organ, if it doesn't mean that they need to create a conscious organism in order to do so. However, would I personally ever do such a thing? Absolutely not, because I think it is ridiculous to want to prolong life so much further than the natural progression.

Now about what you said...

You claimed that "now in an organized society, morals and ethics is what stops us from doing these things again," when in reality, these atrocities are happening constantly. They never stopped. There are STILL horrible people in the world, just like there always have been. But at the same time, there are also wonderful people in the world.
You can't make sweeping generalizations and state things like how the world "used" to be immoral and now is moral. Not only is this untrue, but what is moral to YOU may not be moral to someone ELSE.
I'm not trying to attack your view, its just the logic that you are using seems flawed. If you can present your argument in a way that takes a more advanced and understanding world view into account, I will completely accept it as a sound argument.

We're not enemies here, just people having a conversation. No need to get so riled up.




I'm not riled up, I was just laughing because this statement ""Why should I butt my head in to someone else's business? Ethics? Morals? These are all imaginary creations of the human mind. Come on! They don't actually exist outside of our heads." is easily one of the most smug ones I've ever heard in a discussion.

- When I said "now in an organized society, morals and ethics is what stops us from doing these things again,". I mean the the countries that are organized. Not Darfur, I mean the UN...ect.
- You said "There is still a very large slave trade going on today. Just because you aren't interacting with people who have morals that aren't aligned with your own doesn't mean that they don't still exist." Yes, sure there is, but it's not globally accepted anymore, and the elite societies are participating. BECAUSE of ethics and morals.
- You said "You can't make sweeping generalizations and state things like how the world "used" to be immoral and now is moral. Not only is this untrue, but what is moral to YOU may not be moral to someone ELSE." Our world is finally at the stage where the super powers are, for the most part, acting under ethics that are humane. The USA, Russia, China, Uk, no slaves. No mass genocide, sure Tibet and other things are around, those have been a long time, but Tibetans are not being gassed by the millions or slave traded. The world is much more organized then it has ever been, you can't deny that. There are no huge ethical gray areas anymore, everyone knows what is right and wrong, even though some do wrong, it is noticed and analyzed.


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- V


Edited by Voido (11/27/08 12:16 PM)


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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9322331 - 11/27/08 01:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Firstly, I apologize for being smug. It wasn't my intention. Though I do see how it came across that way.

Quote:

everyone knows what is right and wrong




How can anyone define what "right" and "wrong" is? I strongly disagree with your view that everyone knows what is right and wrong, mostly because I don't think that there is such a thing as "right" and "wrong" in most circumstances.

"Right" and "Wrong" do not exist fundamentally in our universe, as I have been trying to state. They only exist in relation to the good and the bad... the helpfulness or the harm done to other beings by someone. That is what makes an act "right" or "wrong"... and not everyone knows this. Why do we have such an enormous penitentiary system? Why do we pour so much money into a police force? If you were to ask most senators, they would probably say that smoking pot is "wrong"... but if you were to ask most shroomerites, they would say that the senators are "wrong". How can two people both have different opinions but both be correct?

The only rational and logical explanation for this paradigm is that "right" and "wrong" exist only in the plane of humans' minds...

Wait. Before you respond with another overarching generalization, please think about your response for a moment. Voido, you realize that the US, as well as many other of the world's most powerful nations, have been violating human rights and acting as you or I would call "immorally" for decades. You only know what the media reports on. If you dig deeper, you will find that not everything is peaches and cream.


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Re: Ethics [Re: Patisotagami]
    #9322636 - 11/27/08 03:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I should have stated, everyone knows the basics to what is right and wrong, such as killing, stealing, raping.. ect.  Notice I said "Our world is finally at the stage where the super powers are, for the most part, acting under ethics that are humane. The USA, Russia, China, Uk,no slaves. No mass genocide". I'm quite aware that our government hasn't exactly valued every human life for what they should, but hey if them killing and installing different dictators, and so on, keeps me from speaking russian, then fuck it. War comes from human's cultural conditioning, or lack of, that has derived from things far from our natural consciousness, that I know for sure, so then so be it, it is around and has been for thousands of years. However, organized slavery or genocide, especially when it is administered by the free countries and most developed countries, is wrong, and now we have developed enough to not only have that in black and white, but also to prevent it for the most part, when the cost is worth it.


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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9322999 - 11/27/08 04:51 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Voido said:There are no huge ethical gray areas anymore, everyone knows what is right and wrong




Please tell me why we haven't resolved the death penalty or abortion debates thus far.  Why is killing a cow considered to be normal when killing a dog isn't?  What about stem cells and cloning?

It's a sweeping generalization to say that everyone knows what is right and wrong.


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Re: Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #9323293 - 11/27/08 05:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I reply with my other reply above. Like I pointed out, I meant the government and general population of the powerful nations that would have the power to construct a mass genocide or something of that nature.


Edited by Voido (11/27/08 06:04 PM)


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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9323378 - 11/27/08 06:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Sure, I agree that most governments ostensibly label genocide as a bad thing, but I don't think this infers the existence of an absolute morality.


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Re: Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #9323574 - 11/27/08 06:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Sure, I agree that most governments ostensibly label genocide as a bad thing, but I don't think this infers the existence of an absolute morality.




I would say... rape, murder, slavery, genocide, theft, all pretty common things that are globally agreed upon as immoral.


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Edited by Voido (11/27/08 06:59 PM)


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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9323789 - 11/27/08 07:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Some people think they're immoral; others don't.  Is the death penalty justified for criminals?  What about abortion?

Such general concepts as murder and theft might be fine to be labeled as immoral if you don't probe too deeply, but when referring to specific situations the black and white-ness tends to erode in favor of a fuzzy moral gray area.


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Re: Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #9323811 - 11/27/08 08:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

How about some new material? You think those are original arrrrrrghh-uments?


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Re: Ethics *DELETED* [Re: Voido]
    #9324170 - 11/27/08 09:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Why does it need to be impersonal?  Is there a rule against that?  I've enjoyed reading this thread. 
Even if this has been gone over before who cares?  It's fresh to me, and I like to be able to not have to always search the old posts with the dead threads.


Edited by mr.bixby (11/27/08 09:13 PM)


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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9324590 - 11/27/08 10:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

To have JivjaN treat the realm that to me would be considered a "miracle" as an axiom is like one extreme, and Decypher with the chemo and medical community as the other end.
Chemo destroys cells, cancerous ones as well as healthy ones, if you can't prove anything that statement comes as close as you can to.
If everything is just the mind and knowing how to cure yourself, with the plants as teachers, and I agree with that to a certain extent, why is it such a rare thing to cure oneself from any disease or condition with things like cancer, aids, herpes, etc., or other things that in the medical world are deemed uncurable?
Is it all faith?  And has JivjaN experienced that first hand and by experience or by trusting others who claim that or by reading about it?


--------------------
finality [faɪˈnælɪtɪ]
n pl -ties
1. the condition or quality of being final or settled; conclusiveness.
2. a final or conclusive act

Long live the Shroomery and I'm done with it.:toast:


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Re: Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #9324773 - 11/27/08 10:47 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Some people think they're immoral; others don't.  Is the death penalty justified for criminals?  What about abortion?

Such general concepts as murder and theft might be fine to be labeled as immoral if you don't probe too deeply, but when referring to specific situations the black and white-ness tends to erode in favor of a fuzzy moral gray area.




Dude, you were talking about absolute morals, I was giving you some general ones that are practically globally black and white. We all know those are gray areas, I STARTED THE THREAD!!!! I tried to get people to debate these gray areas in the first place!

But for fun:

Death Penalty - More about money.
Abortion - About if something is alive or not, to science and religion

My personal stances
- let criminals live, unless they are seriously neurologically damaged and twisted to the point of no return as far as we can judge, then kill the sick fuck, I'm talking just someone who might of snapped once and murdered someone, let them have the chance to redeem themselves spiritually, that's why I'd let them live. Our taxes go to a lot of useless shit, id spend mine on a life.

- Abortion - If the girl was raped, I think it's ok, if birth control failed, I think it's ok, if a girl gets pregnant and she is an adult (kids make mistakes, blah blah), and she cant take on her responsibility, she must have it and give it away to child care or something or other. I know most don't agree with this, but its inexcusable for our society to have adults that are to that level of irresponsibility, as well as it is inexcusable for us to have faulty birth control methods/tools by now.


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Re: Ethics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9325043 - 11/27/08 11:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How about some new material? You think those are original arrrrrrghh-uments?




Pot calling the kettle blaaarrrrggghhck?


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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9325319 - 11/28/08 12:36 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Voido said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Some people think they're immoral; others don't.  Is the death penalty justified for criminals?  What about abortion?

Such general concepts as murder and theft might be fine to be labeled as immoral if you don't probe too deeply, but when referring to specific situations the black and white-ness tends to erode in favor of a fuzzy moral gray area.




Dude, you were talking about absolute morals, I was giving you some general ones that are practically globally black and white. We all know those are gray areas, I STARTED THE THREAD!!!! I tried to get people to debate these gray areas in the first place!

But for fun:

Death Penalty - More about money.
Abortion - About if something is alive or not, to science and religion

My personal stances
- let criminals live, unless they are seriously neurologically damaged and twisted to the point of no return as far as we can judge, then kill the sick fuck, I'm talking just someone who might of snapped once and murdered someone, let them have the chance to redeem themselves spiritually, that's why I'd let them live. Our taxes go to a lot of useless shit, id spend mine on a life.

- Abortion - If the girl was raped, I think it's ok, if birth control failed, I think it's ok, if a girl gets pregnant and she is an adult (kids make mistakes, blah blah), and she cant take on her responsibility, she must have it and give it away to child care or something or other. I know most don't agree with this, but its inexcusable for our society to have adults that are to that level of irresponsibility, as well as it is inexcusable for us to have faulty birth control methods/tools by now.




Voido, just because you started the thread does not mean you control it. It's fun to interact but not to feel attacked. deCypher, I am thankful that you are agreeing with my logic. See above posts.


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InvisibleVoido
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 396
Re: Ethics [Re: Patisotagami]
    #9326379 - 11/28/08 09:57 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

He kept asking me, What about this? What about this? Trying to elaborate on how I was ignoring that there was moral gray areas, I started the thread because I wanted to discuss a moral gray area! That's all man, nobodies attacking you.

Your logic is just "not every culture has the same morals, not everyone has the same right and wrong" then you have your ecocentric version of "humans made right and wrong (obviously) nature does not include these things nor does the universe, without us". Then go into what things are going wrong in the world, backed up by the tibet and terrorism link... I think it's a given all would agree with these obviously, including me, however these are just picking at the bone.

The only reason I ceased to be precise was because after this statement you said: "Why should I butt my head in to someone else's business? Ethics? Morals? These are all imaginary creations of the human mind. Come on! They don't actually exist outside of our heads"

I had figured by then, after that statement, that we both knew what we were referring to therefore when I said "black and white", I thought you knew already which actions and what cultures/societies I was referring to.


Edited by Voido (11/28/08 10:31 AM)


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