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Registered: 02/10/08 Posts: 56,232 |
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Quote: Quote: My respect for your ideas just dropped significantly. Do you have any sources to prove these claims, or are you basing these on intuition?
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yes Registered: 08/09/08 Posts: 4,245 Last seen: 10 years, 9 months |
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Quote: My respect for your reading , and concentration skills would have then accordingly dropped also.. But it didnt.. My respect is something each being can take for granted..for i respect all creation in all forms.. Second take : "If this sounds vague and far-fetched i would be more than happy to elaborate.. As for now.. i was simply stating my point of view in a couple sentences.. An answer.. in accordance to a question." ------------------------- What is a source , other than a following projection of knowledge obtained from a previous 3rd party/source in our case.. I believe the concept of intuition needs to be clarified within limits of language before i can answer that part of the question. And furthermore .. I am not here to prove.. Can anybody prove anything ? This is not the purpose of debate.. The question as it is stated , instigates various responses within the yes/no reaction "painted" with opinion,reason etc.. for the *yes or *no. I was simply implying that for me to participate in a debate such as this , my general point of view should be taken into consideration in order to achieve less distortion of my statements ,and i have done this in a very "vague" manner and suggested an elaboration from my part on it.. I have percieved "genetic make-up" as one of a hereditary value from the point of view , of the one that has stated the same.. Therefore my response was, that this is something , that i wouldnt go along with being that i believe that the 3rd density experience is in some ways programmed by the individual before undergoing incarnation.. The genetic properties of each and every one of us IMO are basically the same in accordance to the experiences "set-up" for further learning on this planet , in this density , for whatever purpose it has been arranged. Therefore.. if one would have a "genetic impairment" as we like to call it , it would be something to be overcome with knowledge.. My perspective is that knowledge , wisdom , enlightenment.. call it what you will , is a source in itself, for the one pursuing an already set "goal". Independent of my "intuitive" thinking and reasoning ,if you perceive it as such , there is substantial "evidence" of ayahuascas healing properties .. Here is a nice example if i have failed to meet the requirements for understanding on your behalf and others participating.. http://www.hottrainingmaterials. I believe this has strong relevance to the topic and anybody participating should read it. Thank you -------------------- --------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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Registered: 02/10/08 Posts: 56,232 |
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Quote: This is true; perhaps I should have said support--but the meaning remains the same. Arguments must be backed up to be persuasive. Quote: This is also true, but this is far from saying that genetic make-up is a lie; as this implies that any genetic traits can be surmounted through power and knowledge alone, when this is false. If I don't have good leg muscle genes, I will never be able to be an Olympic runner no matter how hard I practice or visualize. Quote: Ayahuasca has great healing power, sure. But don't exaggerate this to the point of saying that it can cure cancer or cure genetic disorders unless you can have verifiable scientific research to back this up. It's particularly damning when the title of the link you posted says in the first few sentences: Quote: Don't believe everything you read.
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yes Registered: 08/09/08 Posts: 4,245 Last seen: 10 years, 9 months |
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I agree the title may give people the wrong idea..
It is explained in the writings.. Have you read it ? -------------------- --------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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Registered: 02/10/08 Posts: 56,232 |
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Yeah, it was a pretty good story, but still provides no evidence towards ayahuasca curing genetic disorders (let alone cancer), particularly when I find the passage riddled with information that makes me inclined to discredit the author as knowledgeable.
Quote: Quote: Quote: Yeah, okay. This is New Age, pseudo-scientific metaphysics. Not the mark of a credible source. Quote: The reason why ayahuasca works is because of the chemical dimethyltryptamine. The experience might have been sublime, sure, but it's still chemically inspired, and this is no valid reason to flaunt "plant" medicine over LSD when both can produce divine experiences. Quote: . So an applied kinesiologist is capable of testing for genetic defects in an organ? This again is alternative medicine veering into quackery. If I'm expected to believe that ayahuasca can cure a genetically inherited disorder, I would like to see verifiable information from a reputable doctor, not from a practitioner of a method that's been criticized on theoretical as well as empirical grounds as being a pseudoscience. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppAgain, I have no doubt that ayahuasca can be incredibly beneficial when it comes to healing psychological disorders and even possibly physical ones, but genetically inherited disorders and cancer are at a completely different level, and exaggerating the benefits of such may delude countless seekers and mystics into pouring their money into the pockets of quacks while they could be receiving proper treatment through established medical care and chemotherapy.
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yes Registered: 08/09/08 Posts: 4,245 Last seen: 10 years, 9 months |
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First of all i would like to correct you in assuming that ayahuasca is so strongly related to DMT.
This would be the modern approach of obtaining orally active dmt with mao inhibitor.. The vine itself is what makes ayahuasca what it is , and thus name has been given accordingly.. The dmt is used in small amounts to "give color to the visions" The healing properties are attributed to the vine. Second.. Do we have "evidence" of human cloning ? No.. but we are still talking about it. How frequently does chemo-therapy actually cure cancer instead of just prolonging life in this state of "health" ? Look at statistics if they are a "credible source". What is a credible source for that matter , honestly ? Who is lying ? Who is telling the truth ? Who is lying because they believed the previous lie and this just stretches on , and on to the point in which one decides what to believe out of all which is available for interpretation. I do not wish to steer people towards conspiracy theories ...but in order to know the truth .. The first you thing you must do is realize you have been lied to .. Do you really think we cant cure cancer ? Do you really think we havent cloned people ? Do you really Believe that ? It is my opinion that we are here precisely because we notice a glitch in this reality we make , or that is presented to us .. It is open mindedness which has been a catalyst for this debate to take place in the "first place" ![]() We should keep it like that.. established medical care and conventional science have no place here IMO.. If you take for granted the conventional and established.. the debate is pointless. The philosophy irrelevant , and the only argument one can make is *yes or *no without the color of personal perception. It is all about perception.. When it comes to the "demons" getting attached to certain people.. I have seen it.. Does that prove anything ? No. It cant.. because its my approach.. Maybe its bent perspective , coloring the distortion with meaning i dont yet understand. Maybe im mentally ill. Maybe im right and all of the people who dont believe it are actually mentally ill... Can you say what is the "actual truth" ? You can.. But you will never get everyone to go along with it.. So many options.. and all of them would then after be products of other perspectives getting involved. I say.. Everything is possible.. EVERYTHING. We are here to present the possibilities we deem more probable than others. And i say No to cloning.. And yes to plant medicine.. For it is not the plant that is healing you.. Its You.. And if you knew how.. you wouldnt need the plant. Many of us dont know.. So the plant can teach us. This is why , and how its done if it is done. I promote [spiritual , mind and body] health as being dependent on each other.. Balance .. is Health. Even if all i say is just BS.. Look at it this way.. If i believe im not sick anymore .. I wont be. And doctors can take my blood do all the tests they want.. If i dont buy it i dont buy it.. And if we stop buying.. they stop selling. ![]() Thank you.. p.s. i really feel there is much more to say on this subject than i have put effort into .. I apologize if my statements are unclear or confusing, or if they lack coherence.. this is because of the broadness of the subject i present from my standing and i still dont have answers to all my questions. The questions.. keep arising.. This is why i am here. -------------------- --------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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Retired Registered: 04/20/08 Posts: 396 |
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Let's keep it impersonal, please. ~V
-------------------- - V Edited by Veritas (11/26/08 06:23 PM)
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Registered: 02/10/08 Posts: 56,232 |
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Quote: Yes. Quote: Too bad prayer doesn't keep AIDS away.
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yes Registered: 08/09/08 Posts: 4,245 Last seen: 10 years, 9 months |
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It is your thread, therefore your question. My answer is the ranting. I apologize. I will remove myself from this debate. Perhaps, it is better to work within the limits of your understanding , along with those who share these properties. And i do not mean this in a belittling way. Simply in a manner of personal perception , projection of personal belief systems. I hope you will not find answers to your questions.. Rather ,find that the question itself is far more important to evaluate. Thank you -------------------- --------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all.. Edited by Veritas (11/26/08 06:24 PM)
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Very big of you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Retired Registered: 04/20/08 Posts: 396 |
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Quote: Objecting your futile designed arguments as well as your proclamation that a psychedelic plant cures cancer and genetic diseases is working within the limits of my understanding and belief systems? In a philosophical debate in the 21st century? What!? Are you trolling? -------------------- - V
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Organism Registered: 05/15/08 Posts: 687 Loc: Everywhere Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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Quote: because assuming that you do not have to create a conscious person in order to harvest a singular organ from them, why would i care if some rich asshole wants to spend a billion dollars creating a second heart for herself? I wouldn't want to spend two lifetimes in this world, but if someone else wants to, that is THEIR prerogative. "My choice is what i choose to do, and if i'm causing no harm why should it bother you? Your choice is who you choose to be so if you're causing no harm, you're alright with me." Why should I butt my head in to someone else's business? Ethics? Morals? These are all imaginary creations of the human mind. Come on! They don't actually exist outside of our heads. If we can create a new liver for a dying billionaire who wants another one, do I think that he should spend all that money on a new one? No... I think he should die and give his money to charity or the rainforest. But realistically, people for one reason or another love their money. It's like clutching a balloon with its skin peeled off (anyone get the reference?). Though it is meaningless, the money won't bring them happiness, maybe they will trade it in for a new liver. Ideally, they would use it to buy 100,000 immunizations for children in africa... but then again, why are the africans' lives any more important or worthwhile than that one person's? -------------------- EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING
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Retired Registered: 04/20/08 Posts: 396 |
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Quote: Ethics and morals are imaginary creations? Are you saying their meaningless? Because of ethics and morals there aren't slaves in our country and there arent entire races being gassed by the millions in other ones.... If some rich guy pays people to have babies that will become his slaves, you don't think that's immoral or unethical? So to each his own on these matters? Wake up.... -------------------- - V Edited by Voido (11/26/08 06:29 PM)
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Organism Registered: 05/15/08 Posts: 687 Loc: Everywhere Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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http://www.davekopel.com/env/ent
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/2 There are still entire races being slaughtered around the world today. Take a look at a world-news outlet that isn't owned by US interests. I'm not saying that ethics & morals are not <b>useful</b> in our society... I was stating that they were fundamentally creations of humans; the universe has existed for billions of years (or an undefined amount of time) without humans' moral code... and if we ever perish from the Earth, the universe will continue existing. This is all. -------------------- EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING
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Registered: 02/10/08 Posts: 56,232 |
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Retired Registered: 04/20/08 Posts: 396 |
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Quote: lol is that referring to me? -------------------- - V
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Retired Registered: 04/20/08 Posts: 396 |
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Quote: How is saying: "Why should I butt my head in to someone else's business? Ethics? Morals? These are all imaginary creations of the human mind. Come on! They don't actually exist outside of our heads. If we can create a new liver for a dying billionaire who wants another one, do I think that he should spend all that money on a new one? No... I think he should die and give his money to charity or the rainforest. But realistically, people for one reason or another love their money. It's like clutching a balloon with its skin peeled off (anyone get the reference?). Though it is meaningless, the money won't bring them happiness, maybe they will trade it in for a new liver. Ideally, they would use it to buy 100,000 immunizations for children in africa... but then again, why are the africans' lives any more important or worthwhile than that one person's?" stating that: "I'm not saying that ethics & morals are not <b>useful</b> in our society... I was stating that they were fundamentally creations of humans; the universe has existed for billions of years (or an undefined amount of time) without humans' moral code..." and if we ever perish from the Earth, the universe will continue existing. LOL. Those events are nowhere close to organized genocide of the Holocaust i was referring to, or to the African slaves. Even if that article on Tibet has all its fact right, which I highly doubt. For the years and years humans have existed, we've fought and killed eachother, sure, and have done incredibly fucked up things, but now in a organized society, morals and ethics is what stops us from doing these things again. Don't flip flop, or present the ideas clearer, because the first thing you said and the last, are completely different. -------------------- - V
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Organism Registered: 05/15/08 Posts: 687 Loc: Everywhere Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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Sorry, I'll try being even more clear about this by breaking it down into points:
-Morals and ethics do not exist outside of the human realm. -There is still a very large slave trade going on today. Just because you aren't interacting with people who have morals that aren't aligned with your own doesn't mean that they don't still exist. -I do think it is fine for someone to get a cloned organ, if it doesn't mean that they need to create a conscious organism in order to do so. However, would I personally ever do such a thing? Absolutely not, because I think it is ridiculous to want to prolong life so much further than the natural progression. Now about what you said... You claimed that "now in an organized society, morals and ethics is what stops us from doing these things again," when in reality, these atrocities are happening constantly. They never stopped. There are STILL horrible people in the world, just like there always have been. But at the same time, there are also wonderful people in the world. You can't make sweeping generalizations and state things like how the world "used" to be immoral and now is moral. Not only is this untrue, but what is moral to YOU may not be moral to someone ELSE. I'm not trying to attack your view, its just the logic that you are using seems flawed. If you can present your argument in a way that takes a more advanced and understanding world view into account, I will completely accept it as a sound argument. We're not enemies here, just people having a conversation. No need to get so riled up. -------------------- EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING
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Retired Registered: 04/20/08 Posts: 396 |
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Quote: I'm not riled up, I was just laughing because this statement ""Why should I butt my head in to someone else's business? Ethics? Morals? These are all imaginary creations of the human mind. Come on! They don't actually exist outside of our heads." is easily one of the most smug ones I've ever heard in a discussion. - When I said "now in an organized society, morals and ethics is what stops us from doing these things again,". I mean the the countries that are organized. Not Darfur, I mean the UN...ect. - You said "There is still a very large slave trade going on today. Just because you aren't interacting with people who have morals that aren't aligned with your own doesn't mean that they don't still exist." Yes, sure there is, but it's not globally accepted anymore, and the elite societies are participating. BECAUSE of ethics and morals. - You said "You can't make sweeping generalizations and state things like how the world "used" to be immoral and now is moral. Not only is this untrue, but what is moral to YOU may not be moral to someone ELSE." Our world is finally at the stage where the super powers are, for the most part, acting under ethics that are humane. The USA, Russia, China, Uk, no slaves. No mass genocide, sure Tibet and other things are around, those have been a long time, but Tibetans are not being gassed by the millions or slave traded. The world is much more organized then it has ever been, you can't deny that. There are no huge ethical gray areas anymore, everyone knows what is right and wrong, even though some do wrong, it is noticed and analyzed. -------------------- - V Edited by Voido (11/27/08 12:16 PM)
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Organism Registered: 05/15/08 Posts: 687 Loc: Everywhere Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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Firstly, I apologize for being smug. It wasn't my intention. Though I do see how it came across that way.
Quote: How can anyone define what "right" and "wrong" is? I strongly disagree with your view that everyone knows what is right and wrong, mostly because I don't think that there is such a thing as "right" and "wrong" in most circumstances. "Right" and "Wrong" do not exist fundamentally in our universe, as I have been trying to state. They only exist in relation to the good and the bad... the helpfulness or the harm done to other beings by someone. That is what makes an act "right" or "wrong"... and not everyone knows this. Why do we have such an enormous penitentiary system? Why do we pour so much money into a police force? If you were to ask most senators, they would probably say that smoking pot is "wrong"... but if you were to ask most shroomerites, they would say that the senators are "wrong". How can two people both have different opinions but both be correct? The only rational and logical explanation for this paradigm is that "right" and "wrong" exist only in the plane of humans' minds... Wait. Before you respond with another overarching generalization, please think about your response for a moment. Voido, you realize that the US, as well as many other of the world's most powerful nations, have been violating human rights and acting as you or I would call "immorally" for decades. You only know what the media reports on. If you dig deeper, you will find that not everything is peaches and cream. -------------------- EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING
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. So an applied kinesiologist is capable of testing for genetic defects in an organ? This again is alternative medicine veering into quackery. If I'm expected to believe that ayahuasca can cure a genetically inherited disorder, I would like to see verifiable information from a reputable doctor, not from a practitioner of a method that's been criticized on theoretical as well as empirical grounds as being a pseudoscience. 
