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InvisibleVoido
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Ethics
    #9314561 - 11/25/08 11:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

To clone or not to clone, that is the question. Regarding organ replacements and an individuals right to purchase this kind of health INSURANCE. Sound off


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- V


Edited by Voido (11/25/08 11:54 PM)


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OfflinePatisotagami
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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9314810 - 11/26/08 12:50 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

why not? go for it. it isn't going to happen for years though. Our cloning techniques are not advanced enough yet to grow a human organ. We can clone human cells... but to clone a working organism without having it grow up in a living, functioning organism (like nature intended it to), is VERY difficult.

Imagine growing a heart, but none of the blood vessels that are connected to it. Then what about the parts of your body attached to the capillaries? You can't separate one body system from another, because the protein interchange from one system to another is so vital to gene transcription. In order to grow the heart, you need signals from the brain, and other surrounding tissues and organs telling it to grow correctly.

It is VERY hard to emulate all of these factors in a laboratory.


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EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING


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OfflinejivJaN
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Registered: 08/09/08
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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9314949 - 11/26/08 01:14 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Voido said:
To clone or not to clone, that is the question. Regarding organ replacements and an individuals right to purchase this kind of health INSURANCE. Sound off




Cloning has already been done..
People that did it are those with negative intentions...
Therefore it will never be available for the use which you suggest being that it would a positive one of a helping kind.
Even if you have to pay..

Even if it was available and "offered".. i would still say NO.

The tree of life is not something to be played with :smile:
It has never had good results..


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---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics [Re: Patisotagami]
    #9315965 - 11/26/08 10:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

smmu said:
why not? go for it. it isn't going to happen for years though. Our cloning techniques are not advanced enough yet to grow a human organ. We can clone human cells... but to clone a working organism without having it grow up in a living, functioning organism (like nature intended it to), is VERY difficult.

Imagine growing a heart, but none of the blood vessels that are connected to it. Then what about the parts of your body attached to the capillaries? You can't separate one body system from another, because the protein interchange from one system to another is so vital to gene transcription. In order to grow the heart, you need signals from the brain, and other surrounding tissues and organs telling it to grow correctly.

It is VERY hard to emulate all of these factors in a laboratory.




Don't worry about our capabilities, its just hypothetical for now, the question was is it ethical? And you say Yes. Why?


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- V


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9316005 - 11/26/08 10:21 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
The tree of life is not something to be played with :smile:
It has never had good results..




As humans capable of plucking the apples off the tree of life for the benefit of medicine, why shouldn't we?  Are you suggesting that we avoid helping others who might die for lack of an organ donor?


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InvisibleArden
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Re: Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #9316172 - 11/26/08 11:08 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Possessing the technology to clone for the benefit of others, and choosing not to, is more immoral than sticking our head in the sand and blindly accepting our fear about our very real ability to manipulate the natural world.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #9316257 - 11/26/08 11:30 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

jivJaN said:
The tree of life is not something to be played with :smile:
It has never had good results..




As humans capable of plucking the apples off the tree of life for the benefit of medicine, why shouldn't we?  Are you suggesting that we avoid helping others who might die for lack of an organ donor?




I am suggesting that we  never needed the modern  kind of medicine in the first place...
People drink aya ..and can cure cancer and genetic disorders.. Yet the majority of people who are diagnosed with cancer undergo chemo- therapy ?
It is my opinion that one is fully responsible, and fully capable of maintaining good health , and curing/healing himself if something wrong happens along the line..

Like i said..
Cloning is a technology we have already used..
You see clones on the tv every day.. if you watch tv.
It will not be used for healing purposes unless your life is valuable to the people in power holding this knowledge..

But.. lets say that it isnt..
Lets Imagine  this would be a great scientific breakthrough, and that i was dying for lack of an organ donor ..
I would avoid being helped in this manner..
As for others.. I dare not suggest.
I need only remind people that every illness is a product of an "Issue" one might have with his-self.
Its not all bacterial , viral and cold scientific substance battling..
Your consciousness plays the biggest role in your health and general well-being.


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics [Re: Arden]
    #9316269 - 11/26/08 11:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Arden said:
Possessing the technology to clone for the benefit of others, and choosing not to, is more immoral than sticking our head in the sand and blindly accepting our fear about our very real ability to manipulate the natural world.




I would say that it is more moral perhaps. Because under the most scrutiny from the wealthy, with the possession of capable cloning abilities, if we refused the birthing and raping of conscious humans, that would come with more moral value, then just now when we don't have the problem/choice at our doorstep, and can just slide over to whatever side our gut or quick reasoning takes.


--------------------
- V


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9316297 - 11/26/08 11:37 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:


I am suggesting that we  never needed the modern  kind of medicine in the first place...
People drink aya ..and can cure cancer and genetic disorders.. Yet the majority of people who are diagnosed with cancer undergo chemo- therapy ?
It is my opinion that one is fully responsible, and fully capable of maintaining good health , and curing/healing himself if something wrong happens along the line..




lol wtf?


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- V


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics [Re: jivJaN]
    #9316330 - 11/26/08 11:41 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It is my opinion that one is fully responsible, and fully capable of maintaining good health , and curing/healing himself if something wrong happens along the line..


And if the bones in your leg are compound fractured in several places and you aren't able to clean the wound fast enough and infection sets in?

Enjoy your agonizing death.

I'm not saying however that you don't have a good point if modified by reason. We certainly give up most of our power to questionable authority figures.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleArden
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Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω Flag
Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9316356 - 11/26/08 11:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I need only remind people that every illness is a product of an "Issue" one might have with his-self.
Its not all bacterial , viral and cold scientific substance battling..
Your consciousness plays the biggest role in your health and general well-being.




Consciousness does play a vital role in regulating immune functioning and negating one's susceptibility to illness. But consider what external factors contribute to consciousness. Family history, genetic makeup, prenatal environment, culture, age, nutrition, etc. "Non-self" components still contribute to your illnesses (i.e. consciousness), despite your assertion that it's not all bacterial or viral.

Quote:

Because under the most scrutiny from the wealthy, with the possession of capable cloning abilities, if we refused the birthing and raping of conscious humans, that would come with more moral value, then just now when we don't have the problem/choice at our doorstep, and can just slide over to whatever side our gut or quick reasoning takes.




Rephrase that for me, please. I don't understand.


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics [Re: Arden]
    #9316386 - 11/26/08 11:50 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It's sort of a Kantian stance, when the problem is harder (in this case when it is more prevalent in the future, if ever so) the choice has has more moral worth. So when it is possible to clone, and the wealthy are ranting and raving to get body doubles to insure their health, it will be more moral if we refuse to let them do so, because that choice is heavier. We would base that choice on that those body doubles will be conscious, and their production to die/be raped of organs, is immoral. You see?


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- V


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9316394 - 11/26/08 11:52 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Voido said:
To clone or not to clone, that is the question. Regarding organ replacements and an individuals right to purchase this kind of health INSURANCE. Sound off




They are my organs within my body. Provided the sale of them involves my consent and the buyer's consent, it would be absurd to call it unethical.  I would argue that there are no more ethics involved than the sale of groceries or other goods, provided mutual consent exists.

Edit: Whoops, misread the above topic.

I don't see why organ cloning should possibly be unethical. As long as we're not stealing people's organs without their approval, I'm not entirely sure where there's an issue.


Edited by Redstorm (11/26/08 11:53 AM)


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Ethics [Re: Arden]
    #9316419 - 11/26/08 11:55 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well.. Seems that we come from different places doesnt it ? :smile:

---Family history, genetic makeup, prenatal environment, culture, age, nutrition, etc.---

These are all notions that in my opinion play no significant role... except nutrition

You have to understand..
I see "family" as separation
genetic makeup as a lie..
Culture as a lie
age as unimportant

I dont believe in "external" factors or "Non-selves"

All is one

If this sounds vague and far-fetched i would be more than happy to elaborate..
As for now.. i was simply stating my point of view in a couple sentences..
An answer.. in accordance to a question.

Thank you


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibleArden
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Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω Flag
Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9316427 - 11/26/08 11:57 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It's sort of a Kantian stance, when the problem is harder (in this case when it is more prevalent in the future, if ever so) the choice has has more moral worth. So when it is possible to clone, and the wealthy are ranting and raving to get body doubles to insure their health, it will be more moral if we refuse to let them do so, because that choice is heavier. We would base that choice on that those body doubles will be conscious, and their production to die/be raped of organs, is immoral. You see?




Could be.

But I wasn't referring to cloning entire persons (e.g. cosmetic doubles), which is more the subject matter of science fiction novels and the unsupported fears of people who object against medical cloning.

I was referring to cloning the physical constituents of the body. Unless you suppose consciousness resides in vital organs, follow Kant's categorical imperatives and support helping sick people.


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics [Re: Arden]
    #9316549 - 11/26/08 12:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No yea, this is what the thread is about, cloning entire doubles to replace ones organs.


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- V


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9316566 - 11/26/08 12:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

How about cloning triples?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics [Re: Icelander]
    #9316573 - 11/26/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No. How about not.


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- V


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics [Re: Voido]
    #9316597 - 11/26/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well how about clowning then?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVoido
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Re: Ethics *DELETED* [Re: Voido]
    #9316610 - 11/26/08 12:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by Veritas

Reason for deletion: Let's keep it impersonal, please.



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