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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: hongomon]
    #1009416 - 10/31/02 08:11 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I think you misunderstood my comments... I said that the oceans supply most of the CO2 in our atmosphere...your quote mentions that humans have contributed 10 percent

INCREASES IN ATMOSPHERIC (CO2)
Human Activities Add to Atmospheric (CO2)
Atmospheric CO2 has increased about 25 percent since the early 1 800s. Climatologists at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md., estimate the increase since 1958 has been about 10 percent. Currently, the level of atmospheric C 2 is increasing at a rate of about 0.4 percent a year.b]

i'd comment on the rest of your post but i want to make sure your sticking with this number (due to mine..or your confusion.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: hongomon]
    #1010975 - 10/31/02 07:31 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

No one is doubting that the POPULATION of the world has an effect on EARTH.

I rarely hear an environmentalist complaining about overpopulation in STARVING, third world countries. I just hear about the evil Machine that makes sure we don't starve in the USA. This country runs on OIL, oil is a business. You are expecting the citizens of this country to impose laws against the OIL industry that will put them out of business. You are expecting the citizens who run these industries to INVEST in technologies that they DON'T need.

What you seem to never focus on, is the INDIVIDUALS that CONSUME the GOODS, OIL, Cows, CROPS, and TIMBER. The individuals that drive the cars, live in homes, eat exotic foods, play video games, use computers, etc....... Your system of thought does not include the people in it's solution. You don't include the people in the problem. Corporations can only make money selling things that people will buy!!!

Show me a society that is succesful, that does not damage the environment!!! One that lacks crime, economic classes, and relies on ZERO industry or military.

Do you ask a Doctor to build you a Car. Do you expect garbage man to spend their hard earned money to develope a system that will eliminate their JOBS. But you seem to think it is ok to BLAME OIL companies and INDUSTRY for doing their jobs. You expect them to develope the technology that will change their own occupations.

You want Agriculturalist to create super crops to feed the world, but you want to limit them to ARCHAIC methods of producing these crops. No pesticides, no Genetic engineering. You also expect the developed succesful countries to give these products to underdeveloped countries, for FREE.

You want to rob the rich and give to the poor. You refuse to except that people can be poor, through their own fault. That people can be starving through their own fault.

If you have no money, no land, no food, no healthcare, WOULD YOU HAVE CHILDREN? Would you then blame those who have all these things, and don't have kids?


You want to handcuff and ankle cuff industries, and then expect them to run , come through with the solutions to your problems.


Tell me something that makes sense, and maybe I will change my mind.

The ecosystem that is EARTH is far more complex then you or I can ever imagine. It includes people. It includes industry. It includes everything you think is the problem and everything you haven't come up with as a solution.

Explain to me how you are gonna limit population without coming off as a racist. Without becoming a fascist. Without limiting freedom. Without destroying that which makes successful countries succesful. Show me the WAY!!!


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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1011409 - 10/31/02 10:45 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Wow.

I had no idea you were that well-spoken or knowledgeable.

I hope you vote. :wink:

Cheers, 


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Offlinebluesky
mushroom cowboy

Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 561
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1011442 - 10/31/02 10:57 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Well, we could do some research with HEMP FUEL as an alternate resource since we are running out of fossil fuels on earth as we speak. Not only would Hemp fuel rescue our air from fossil fuels' emissions, but if we used 6 % of our land to grow hemp for fuel, then America would be completely independant from other countries as far as fuel goes. Just think, no more high gas prices. And think of all those job openings for potential farmers.
:smirk: 


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You're my blue sky, you're my sunny day,
Lord you know it makes me high when you turn your love my way. Turn your love my waaaaaay, Yea.
-Richard (Dickey) Betts


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InvisibleZen Peddler
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1012380 - 11/01/02 07:09 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

'You want me to pretend that Russia, China, France, Germany, etc... have my best interests in mind. You must be smoking some good shit over their in OZ.'
No, but none of these nation-states have ever had the guile to come out and state that they are the 'leader of the free world' while providing their law enforcement with the legitimacy to disregard the dignity and civil rights of its citizens before they are ever found guilty of any offence. No other nation in the free world detains its citizens for such lengthy periods or even has the barbarism of capital punishment.
Iraq and its military is a DIRECT result of the US marshall plan in the Middle East in its attempt to arm and fund those nations who it felt might provide a buffer from its old foe, communism. Now ofcourse, the US has a new foe in Islam and 'terrorism' which is an intangible force that they can use to justify military action against any part of the world they desire. Although there is NO evidence that Saddam or Iraq had any involvement in Sept 11 (and it was on of the few nations that was not implicated in this terrorist act), oil is cheap there, so off to war the USA will go. Also Iraq is a notorius supporter of the palenstinean cause - particularly unpopular in a USA that has such a financially powerful zionist lobby. So while Iraq and other middle-eastern nations are accussed of 'possibly having the potential to pose a biochemical threat' to other nations in the future, Us and its ally Israel has been has been free to invest fully in a biochemical and nuclear arsenal. During the coldwar, the USSR was so concerned about the hugely regionally disproportional military capability of Israel that it actually threatened its continued existence if it again acted against Egypt. However with the breakdown of the soviet bloc, there is no longer a watch dog in foreign policy affairs, and the hawks in Tel Aviv and Washington can justify any action - missiles vs stones - as counter terrorist - and always chuck in the odd 'al Queda' connection allegation to keep things quiet in their corporate-friendly media.
Again I will re-iterate - influence in the US democracy is only available to those who have the financial means to lobby representatives - voter apathy ensures that every day people in america will never have this ability.
In a recent poll of citizens of San Fran, CA, 60% of those interviews thought that the Berlin wall was in Israel, 40% thought that the main religion of Israel was Islam, 65% felt that Osama Bin Laden was Iraqi and 30% could not answer correctly which state Kentucky Fried Chicken hailed from. Does this sound like an informed population capable of lobbying?


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1012406 - 11/01/02 07:51 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

what utter rubbish. The usa leaves an environmental footprint far larger than it needs to. Fair enough, but when it starts to effect the rest of the world its not on.


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1012411 - 11/01/02 07:52 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I hope thats irony. but i doubt it.


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1012414 - 11/01/02 07:54 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

****im not being funny but do you ever say anything not related to another poster i.e something on subject and intelligent?
****

well?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1012415 - 11/01/02 07:54 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I think I understood you, but I disagree. The oceans don't supply the atmosphere with any more CO2 than they absorb. In fact there's good evidence saying that oceans absorb more--they're CO2 sinks.

And the quote doesn't say that humans contribute 10 percent of the CO2. It says that the CO2 levels have risen 10 percent since 1958. Though it does suggest that human activity contributes to that increase. And that's what I'm saying too. When fossil fuels (carbon) are burned, the carbon is combined with an O2 molecule and released as CO2. Whether the increasing CO2 levels is something to be worried about is a separate issue--the increasing levels obviously have to do with human activity.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: hongomon]
    #1012433 - 11/01/02 08:11 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

****Though it does suggest that human activity contributes to that increase. And that's what I'm saying too. ****

oh don't get me wrong, i'm not so naive as to think humans don't contribute to CO2 discharge (hence breathing, automobiles, decomposure..industry) however i don't think it's as high as the environmentalist claim it is. I'll try to find the site that mentions the oceans...i think pinksharkmark, evolving..or someone i can't remember posted it a long time ago...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1012659 - 11/01/02 10:37 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I have a feeling you've had this anti-environmentalism essay kicking around for a while and you finally found a chance to share it.  Cause the "you" in your post is not me.

"What you seem to never focus on, is the INDIVIDUALS that CONSUME the GOODS, OIL, Cows, CROPS, and TIMBER. The individuals that drive the cars, live in homes, eat exotic foods, play video games, use computers, etc....... Your system of thought does not include the people in it's solution. You don't include the people in the problem. Corporations can only make money selling things that people will buy!!!"

Actually I seem to often focus on this.  In fact, I've been labeled an elitist for it.  :shocked:  It comes down to the age-old argument of free-will vs. determinism.  I'm not willing to say "No one is forcing people to buy these things" and leave it at that.  The libertarian definition of force is very literal, and inadequate by itself in a complex world. 

On the other hand, I do feel that people, generally speaking, could be more responsible consumers.  But the message out of the commercial sector, as well as from their bedmates the government, is that the path out of our fix is greater spending, greater production.  That's crazy talk.  We can wrangle over definitions and relativize till our ass falls asleep, but in the final analysis it will be the very ecosystem you mention that decides if we consume too much, pollute too much, and alter ecosystems--locally and, ultimately, that great mother of all ecosystems, that's right, the goddess Gaia herself, may her infinite goodness grace us all--too much.

So actually, my system of thought does include the people in its solution.  I don't know how it could be brought about, but I'm pretty sure that without a popular revolution of attitudes and behavior, it can't.

What do you think of the moratorium on whaling?  Is that a bad thing?  Or what about the practice of catching a shark, cutting off its fins, and then throwing the rest of the shark back?  Is there any way to put an end to that through policy?  Obviously if people suddenly refused to buy shark fin soup the practice would end, but does that mean the problem can't be addressed from another direction as well?

I don't want supercrops to feed the world.  I want an agricultural revolution--I want people to stop buying products from the huge agri-businesses WHEREVER POSSIBLE, and start building up local agriculture.  There's nothing archaic about hydroponics, and for that matter there's a real flavor of modernity in organic farming.  I want the farm subsidy's current pyramidic allotment to reverse, so that the small farmers are enabled to produce for a local market.  Think of how much oil the current method uses JUST in transporting produce to regions where the same produce can grow, and often does!  Yet thanks largely to those subsidies, that produce still out-competes the local stuff.  This is an area where local communities really need to start talking about who they want to support when they shop.

"The ecosystem that is EARTH is far more complex then you or I can ever imagine. It includes people. It includes industry. It includes everything you think is the problem and everything you haven't come up with as a solution."

Unless you're thinking in geological time, you're really stretching it to say that industry is included in the ecosystem that is earth.  In the sense you present, a nuclear war is part of the ecosystem.  Sure, it may take several hundred thousand years for the system to remain its equilibrium, but that's just a blink of an eye, right?

Man's intelligence in effect disqualifies him from a natural, unconscious role in the ecosystem that, say, a seal, or a buffalo might play.  That intelligence brings with it a responsibility.  I just don't think that in the West a sense of that responsibility has developed as fully as other aspects of our culture.  We've got the importance of personal freedom pretty well figured out, but there seems to be only a remote sense of social responsibility.  It's pretty short-sighted.

For an environmental advocate who may not step on your toes quite so much,  check out this speech by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. 


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