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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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The phenomenology of death.
#9303481 - 11/24/08 11:18 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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You have five seconds until you pull the trigger of your loaded .45 ACP that is currently placed against your right temple.
Describe the experience of death.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9303513 - 11/24/08 11:22 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Anyone who had the experience to give you an accurate answer no longer has the ability to respond to your post. Everyone else would just be bullshitting.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9303540 - 11/24/08 11:26 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I realize this, but give me your best guess regardless.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9303558 - 11/24/08 11:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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My guess is that there IS no experience of death. We may have a brief experience of dying, but with a close-range gunshot to the head, even this is quite unlikely. Our brain functions would be interrupted instantaneously, ending the "I" on the spot.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9303584 - 11/24/08 11:34 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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The bull's "I"?
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9303602 - 11/24/08 11:37 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ending what we take to be "I"...
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 10 days
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Chronic7]
#9303665 - 11/24/08 11:47 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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ok so it might be very much like that puzzle with the tortoise and the hare, where the reference point of time keeps shrinking and essentially, the hare never beats the tortoise. i will assume you know this old mathematical jumble.
well just like time can seem to stretch out when in certain trips maybe time stretches out in experience during the process of death
so that we spend near-eternity in the moment before death
according to the very same principles that allow us to experience what seems like aeons in the space of minutes on certain drug trips.
im just throwing a potential mechanism for eternity out there...
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9303675 - 11/24/08 11:49 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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So our experience simply ceases?
This is a rather mind-boggling concept to grasp. I think the closest parallel we have is that of entering into deep sleep; we have no memories of the occasion but only regain our sense of "I" after the fact and when we sleep into REM dreaming.
It seems to me that if one were to somehow stop the activity of our brain (cryogenically preserve in some fashion, or through nanotechnology) for a few years, and then start it again, our consciousness would not notice the time in between. Phenomenologically speaking, we would have a continuous experience up until the freezing and then instantaneously notice that we were in a different time and location upon waking up. All this is contingent upon is the reconstitution of the atoms and molecules that make up your brain in the exact state that it was prior to the halting.
Now, what if at some point, far off in the distant future, a chaotic shuffling of molecules happened to produce an identical copy of your brain. It's not very likely (in fact, it's very, very, very unlikely), but it's still possible. Do we have any choice but to conclude that our experience of death would simply be continuous up until the gunshot and then immediately aware of whatever situation comprises the new formulation of your brain?
In this case, is death (in the sense of a permanent cessation of consciousness) even possible? Or do dead people simply wake up at some far-off, statistically unlikely yet sure to happen given enough of a long time-span, point in the future?
What if a sufficiently advanced civilization in the future were capable of simulating all possible brains on some sort of substrate? Would our consciousnesses upon death instantaneously wake up into this simulation? Could this be a modern interpretation of the after-life?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Noteworthy]
#9303687 - 11/24/08 11:51 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said: well just like time can seem to stretch out when in certain trips maybe time stretches out in experience during the process of death
so that we spend near-eternity in the moment before death
Yes, I've thought of this before. Unfortunately I don't think the perception of time can be extended to full eternity, though (presumably subjective time perception is governed by the firing rate of neurons; these can be increased so as to give the illusion of stretched out time, but fire too fast and the neurons die).
Still an interesting idea, though, although it would be rather horrific in practice. Would you sit there for eternity watching the bloodspattered bits of your brain drip down the wall, permanently alone with nothing to do but think?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9303825 - 11/24/08 12:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
In this case, is death (in the sense of a permanent cessation of consciousness) even possible? Or do dead people simply wake up at some far-off, statistically unlikely yet sure to happen given enough of a long time-span, point in the future?
Even if the physical qualities of your brain were to be replicated at some point in the future, the experience of consciousness would belong to the individual body where that brain resides. "You" would no more recur within that physical structure than a deceased identical twin would recur within the body of his/her sibling.
Our experience of consciousness occurs while our body lives, and it is created by the interaction of our living brain with our environment. After all, the physical aspect of our brain continues intact if we die of a heart attack (no physical brain damage), so this would imply that our consciousness would continue within the physical brain after death.
Death = cessation of brain function. Cessation of brain function = no consciousness. Those who claim that consciousness exists absent a functioning brain have ZERO evidence to support their claim. All signs point to "game over" when the brain ceases to function.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9303857 - 11/24/08 12:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
In this case, is death (in the sense of a permanent cessation of consciousness) even possible? Or do dead people simply wake up at some far-off, statistically unlikely yet sure to happen given enough of a long time-span, point in the future?
Even if the physical qualities of your brain were to be replicated at some point in the future, the experience of consciousness would belong to the individual body where that brain resides. "You" would no more recur within that physical structure than a deceased identical twin would recur within the body of his/her sibling.
Hey, hold on a minute. Do you have the same body that you did five minutes ago? Cells die all the time; your collection of neurons at this precise instant is not the same collection that it will be five minutes from now--and yet your consciousness remains continuous.
I'm not claiming consciousness can exist without a functioning brain; the point of the thought experiment is that if one recreates a functioning brain with an identical neural structure to when the old brain died, one would have to assume that consciousness would continue unabated in the new brain. A similar example can be noted in the thought experiment involving teleportation of one's body: if we destroy the old body and create an identical one in another location, would your consciousness be instantaneously transported to the new body?
Edited by deCypher (11/24/08 12:35 PM)
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Hahzist
Surfing theWaves of Chaos

Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 214
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9303916 - 11/24/08 12:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
It seems to me that if one were to somehow stop the activity of our brain (cryogenically preserve in some fashion, or through nanotechnology) for a few years, and then start it again, our consciousness would not notice the time in between. Phenomenologically speaking, we would have a continuous experience up until the freezing and then instantaneously notice that we were in a different time and location upon waking up. All this is contingent upon is the reconstitution of the atoms and molecules that make up your brain in the exact state that it was prior to the halting.
Now, what if at some point, far off in the distant future, a chaotic shuffling of molecules happened to produce an identical copy of your brain. It's not very likely (in fact, it's very, very, very unlikely), but it's still possible. Do we have any choice but to conclude that our experience of death would simply be continuous up until the gunshot and then immediately aware of whatever situation comprises the new formulation of your brain?
In this case, is death (in the sense of a permanent cessation of consciousness) even possible? Or do dead people simply wake up at some far-off, statistically unlikely yet sure to happen given enough of a long time-span, point in the future?
What if a sufficiently advanced civilization in the future were capable of simulating all possible brains on some sort of substrate? Would our consciousnesses upon death instantaneously wake up into this simulation? Could this be a modern interpretation of the after-life?
Wow I like that 
I used to think about how cool it would be to be a time traveler through cryogenic freezing. Applying this concept to death is pretty awesome. You could also apply it to the big bang big crunch theory, where in the next big bang everything happens over again. So when you die, you're experience is that of instantly being born again as the same person.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9303917 - 11/24/08 12:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Actually, most of our brain cells live for a long time. Those which relate to memory live as long as you do.
How would "you" be the one having experiences within an identical brain? If your body dies, your experience STOPS. If someone else somehow exactly replicated your neural network by having 100% identical experiences and cognitive reaction, had an identical genetic makeup, nervous system, etc...it would still be THEIR brain and their experience.
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zannennagara
Found in Space



Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9303938 - 11/24/08 12:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Gun pressed to your temple, you decide that this is it. No more waiting, end the suffering now.
OK, the gun is cocked, it's there, damn, is it in the right spot? Better not fire until you're sure. What if you hit a spot that doesn't kill you and leaves you a bed-ridden IV-sucking vegetable wracked with constant pain? Better make this right. Adjust, readjust, imagine the trajectory and what's going to hit, damn, what about recoil, maybe the aim will get thrown off before the bullet even leaves the chamber.
By now your hand is sweating, palm damp and moist, droplets sliding down the trigger and along your wrist, and trembling. There goes your leg, too, the whole thing is bouncing up and down like the temperature just dropped fifty degrees, you can't keep still, you're shaking and shivering all up and down, but you're still going to do it, as soon as you're sure you're lined up right.
Damn, this is going to be messy, blood everywhere, something pretty fucked-up to see for whoever's going to find you, rotting and fetid and covered in flies and maggots. If you fail this is going to hurt a lot and cost a lot too and be really fucking embarrassing and miserable.
It'll be over so soon, so soon, damn how can that be, how can that entire life be erased in a second, what's that going to be like. Quaking, the gun's there, it's cocked now, finger giving a little pressure on the trigger, but it's quaking with you. You feel like you've been awake for a week, maybe raped, mind dragged through a ditch, eyes bleary and blood-shot, feeling deep needles all around their outsides.
Quaking, quaking, you pull!
[Not at the temple, that's one of the worst places on the head to aim, but inside the mouth pointed back at the brain stem]
Voila, your consciousness is (still) in other bodies, each body feeling unique, awareness tied to specific body and experience, no feeling of having died save for reading about it in the newspaper or being a close friend of the victim, a close friend hearing the news, going to the funeral, and quaking, quaking...
Maybe.
-------------------- No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.
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Hahzist
Surfing theWaves of Chaos

Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 214
Last seen: 12 years, 23 days
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9303940 - 11/24/08 12:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Actually, most of our brain cells live for a long time. Those which relate to memory live as long as you do.
How would "you" be the one having experiences within an identical brain? If your body dies, your experience STOPS. If someone else somehow exactly replicated your neural network by having 100% identical experiences and cognitive reaction, had an identical genetic makeup, nervous system, etc...it would still be THEIR brain and their experience.
Thats why every cell, including memory cells (although do we really know exactly how that works?) would have to be identical. In that case, its you. Because thats all you are.
Edited by Hahzist (11/24/08 12:44 PM)
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9303944 - 11/24/08 12:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Do you have any good links for that assertion? I was under the impression that neurons, just like any other cells, die and get replaced (neurogenesis in particular seems to take place in the hippocampus and the olfactory bulb).
Claiming that your experience stops if your body dies is merely conjecture, nothing more. But I do agree on general principle.
However, what if we were to replace a single neuron in your brain with an electronic transistor that performs the same function? And likewise, if we gradually extend this to every neuron? At no point would there be a loss of consciousness; only a transferring of mental experience onto a different physical substrate. This is the same process as if we were constructing a new, identical brain--only in the one case the transition is slow and in the other the transition is fast and involves instantaneously destroying the old brain while creating the new one.
Let me ask you, if the only difference between the old and new brain is the location of the atoms, and conscious experience absolutely stops upon destruction of the old, then how could we ever move our own brains around in space?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9303946 - 11/24/08 12:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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My best friend when I was in high school told me he had a NDE experience. He drown in a swimming pool and saw his body from 50 feet above. He saw his parents dive into the pool and pull him out.
This guy was no bullshitter. Yet, it's possible... but I don't see why he would've lied to me about something like that.
What was going on here, Veritas?
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deranger]
#9303962 - 11/24/08 12:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deranger said: My best friend when I was in high school told me he had a NDE experience. He drown in a swimming pool and saw his body from 50 feet above. He saw his parents dive into the pool and pull him out.
This guy was no bullshitter. Yet, it's possible... but I don't see why he would've lied to me about something like that.
What was going on here, Veritas?
The power of belief plus a very sophisticated reality modeling system present in the brain?
OBEs and lucid dreams that appear to mimic reality exactly occur all the time; do we call this equally as real as consensus reality?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: zannennagara]
#9303969 - 11/24/08 12:48 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zannennagara said: Voila, your consciousness is (still) in other bodies, each body feeling unique, awareness tied to specific body and experience, no feeling of having died save for reading about it in the newspaper or being a close friend of the victim, a close friend hearing the news, going to the funeral, and quaking, quaking...
I like it. Fears of quantum immortality would plague me in the actual event, though. What if my consciousness succeeds in surviving into the timelines where I become brain-damaged from a faulty shot rather than die?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9303975 - 11/24/08 12:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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so you're fairly sure of what happened to him?
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deranger]
#9303990 - 11/24/08 12:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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From your story, I'm fairly certain he's telling the truth about his experience.
I'd claim that it's nothing more than a lucid dream or OBE, though--all the result of neurons firing away in the brain.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9304018 - 11/24/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/key-to-brain-age-a-matter-of-fallout/2006/12/13/1165685752433.html
Quote:
Let me ask you, if the only difference between the old and new brain is the location of the atoms, and conscious experience absolutely stops upon destruction of the old, then how could we ever move our own brains around in space?
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9304019 - 11/24/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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good guess. i'm still extremely skeptical though.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deranger]
#9304022 - 11/24/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think if you recreated the body atom for atom (which is absolutely impossible, and I can explain why if you need me to) then consciousness would 'start up' as IF it had not stopped. but the old consciousness would have ended. I think so, anyway. I dont think consciousness should really be thought of as a function of reality. It is just a part of reality. IF that makes sense. this is to say, consciousness is not 'determined' by the state of the world, it simply IS a state of the world, which we can cognitively 'determine' by making inferences based on the state of the world. But its all happening simultaneously, not in some causal directional pathway (if that sort of thing even exists).
As for my own little contribution, I dont really think neurons have to actually fire faster within a time period for that many experiences to happen.. it could be different. time could slow down but also could the progression of thoughts, seperately to the progression of experiential-consciousness-timeline-phenomenon. but yes it would probably suck if you died horifically
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Hahzist
Surfing theWaves of Chaos

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9304044 - 11/24/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/key-to-brain-age-a-matter-of-fallout/2006/12/13/1165685752433.html
Quote:
Let me ask you, if the only difference between the old and new brain is the location of the atoms, and conscious experience absolutely stops upon destruction of the old, then how could we ever move our own brains around in space?
I read the article and I'm not a biologist.. but aren't neurons simply pathways for information and processes? I think your argument for memory may not apply here. As far as I know nobody knows exactly how memory works, but I dont think memory information is retained in neurons.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deranger]
#9304051 - 11/24/08 01:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deranger said: My best friend when I was in high school told me he had a NDE experience. He drown in a swimming pool and saw his body from 50 feet above. He saw his parents dive into the pool and pull him out.
This guy was no bullshitter. Yet, it's possible... but I don't see why he would've lied to me about something like that.
What was going on here, Veritas?
Well, there are many examples of people "remembering" events which did not occur or which they were not present to experience. Often these memories are created based upon context, stories told by others, wishful thinking, or in an effort to protect the self-concept.
If your friend combined his recollection of being in the pool with stories told by his parents, and filled in the details based upon context, he could very well have created a "memory" of what happened.
The key to discerning a true OBE would be knowledge of some detail which could not be assembled via context, stories & one's own memories prior to the incident. (i.e. the rescue is caught on a poolside security camera, and your friend verifies that a small bird landed on the water, then flew away before anyone arrived to rescue him. If he had included this detail in his description of what occurred while he was dead, this evidence would support his claim of having had an OBE.)
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9304059 - 11/24/08 01:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Let me ask you, if the only difference between the old and new brain is the location of the atoms, and conscious experience absolutely stops upon destruction of the old, then how could we ever move our own brains around in space?
I'm dead serious, in point of fact. 
Suppose we ask how it's possible to move a brain from one location to the next. At T-0, my brain is at a specific location. At T-1, it's at another. The brain at T-1 is comprised of identical neurons and structure, and is continuing the same physical processes that it was at the start. The only difference between the two times is that of location.
Now, what if we extend this concept of motion to duplication and destruction? At T-0, my brain is at a specific location. At T-1, my old brain has been destroyed and a new one, identical to the first, has been created at the new location.
These two processes are identical, the only difference being the modus of operandi between T-0 and T-1. If in the former you claim that consciousness is continuous from T-0 to T-1, it seems illogical to deny this for the latter.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Hahzist]
#9304089 - 11/24/08 01:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9304146 - 11/24/08 01:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
deranger said: My best friend when I was in high school told me he had a NDE experience. He drown in a swimming pool and saw his body from 50 feet above. He saw his parents dive into the pool and pull him out.
This guy was no bullshitter. Yet, it's possible... but I don't see why he would've lied to me about something like that.
What was going on here, Veritas?
Well, there are many examples of people "remembering" events which did not occur or which they were not present to experience. Often these memories are created based upon context, stories told by others, wishful thinking, or in an effort to protect the self-concept.
If your friend combined his recollection of being in the pool with stories told by his parents, and filled in the details based upon context, he could very well have created a "memory" of what happened.
The key to discerning a true OBE would be knowledge of some detail which could not be assembled via context, stories & one's own memories prior to the incident. (i.e. the rescue is caught on a poolside security camera, and your friend verifies that a small bird landed on the water, then flew away before anyone arrived to rescue him. If he had included this detail in his description of what occurred while he was dead, this evidence would support his claim of having had an OBE.)
good guess. i still remain very skeptical
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Hahzist
Surfing theWaves of Chaos

Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 214
Last seen: 12 years, 23 days
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9304188 - 11/24/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-memory.htm
Quote:
But today, experts believe that memory is far more complex and elusive than that -- and that it is located not in one particular place in the brain but is instead a brain-wide process.
Quote:
Your "memory" is really made up of a group of systems that each play a different role in creating, storing, and recalling your memories. When the brain processes information normally, all of these different systems work together perfectly to provide cohesive thought.
Quote:
the memory of how to operate the bike comes from one set of brain cells; the memory of how to get from here to the end of the block comes from another; the memory of biking safety rules from another; and that nervous feeling you get when a car veers dangerously close, from still another. Yet you're never aware of these separate mental experiences, nor that they're coming from all different parts of your brain, because they all work together so well.
You're previous article discussed a set of nuerons in a particular part of the brain that are as old as you are.
Not quite the same thing here.
Edited by Hahzist (11/24/08 01:32 PM)
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Hahzist]
#9304230 - 11/24/08 01:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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deCypher, have you ever read the book "The Physics of Immortality"? It would be right up your alley. It's all about the resurrection of the dead by uploading all possible brain states on to a super-powerful simulator at the end of time in a quantum singularity.
"The soul will be doing nothing, not even sleeping dreamlessly, because it won't exist. A human's soul is not naturally immortal and, when you're dead, you're dead until the Omega Point resurrects you. But no subjective time passes between the instant of death and the instant of resurrection, though in the universe as a whole trillians of years may pass"
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Definitely sounds like interesting reading! Do you know of any online pdfs of the book, or am I relegated to having to buy?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9304349 - 11/24/08 02:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't know of any online pdfs, I think you may have to buy it
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Hahzist]
#9304655 - 11/24/08 02:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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The cerebral cortex is as old as you are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_cortex
This is not a particular spot in the brain, but rather the neuron-rich processing layer. Memories are tightly-woven associations created within the neural network of the cerebral cortex.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9304686 - 11/24/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
These two processes are identical, the only difference being the modus of operandi between T-0 and T-1. If in the former you claim that consciousness is continuous from T-0 to T-1, it seems illogical to deny this for the latter.
OK, to clarify, your initial scenario seemed to indicate that another individual, against all the odds, would manage to recreate the exact physical configuration of your brain, through their own unique experiences, and that your consciousness would instantly "resume" in this brain copy. I was responding to THIS scenario.
You moved on to a deliberate recreation of a copy of your brain, presumably within a lab, and whether THIS scenario would result in your consciousness being instantly resumed at the point you died.
These are two VERY different scenarios. Both are also quite different from the continuous operation of my brain within my own skull in two different locations.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: The phenomenology of death. *DELETED* [Re: deCypher]
#9304727 - 11/24/08 03:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by VeritasReason for deletion: Use the PM system, please.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Icelander]
#9304761 - 11/24/08 03:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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it stars saddam said: However, death and brain damage are obviously not the only possible outcomes of the quantum suicide experiment. You could load the gun and then decide against going through with the experiment, or you could load the gun and be apprehended by a stranger who bursts through the door and restrains you so that you are unable to complete the experiment, etc.
Right, but one has to look at which scenarios are the most probable (i.e. which configuration of reality is it more likely that my consciousness would continue to). Such situations as a stranger bursting through the door are less likely than the bullet still traveling through my brain and leaving me paralyzed, yet still conscious.
Quote:
Veritas said: OK, to clarify, your initial scenario seemed to indicate that another individual, against all the odds, would manage to recreate the exact physical configuration of your brain, through their own unique experiences, and that your consciousness would instantly "resume" in this brain copy. I was responding to THIS scenario. You moved on to a deliberate recreation of a copy of your brain, presumably within a lab, and whether THIS scenario would result in your consciousness being instantly resumed at the point you died.
These are two VERY different scenarios. Both are also quite different from the continuous operation of my brain within my own skull in two different locations.
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deCypher said: Now, what if at some point, far off in the distant future, a chaotic shuffling of molecules happened to produce an identical copy of your brain.
I don't see how this implies that another individual would recreate the identical physical configuration through their unique experiences, but apologies if I didn't communicate well enough--the intent of the thought experiment is to recreate the exact same pattern of interacting atoms and molecules that your current brain constitutes, presumably through an advanced laboratory of sorts.
I'd still like to see a counter-argument against my motion example. Again, the beginning time state and the ending time state are identical; why deny continuity of consciousness to the one and not to the other?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
Edited by Veritas (11/24/08 03:26 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9304776 - 11/24/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Lies. Damned lies and slander.
Big maybe, but I don't think it's going to get deleted
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Hahzist
Surfing theWaves of Chaos

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Icelander]
#9304856 - 11/24/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Posts getting deleted...really?
What happened here?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Hahzist]
#9304882 - 11/24/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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God has determined that I answered the query incorrectly.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9304893 - 11/24/08 03:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Again, the beginning time state and the ending time state are identical; why deny continuity of consciousness to the one and not to the other?
Because the middle is important, too.
Yes, a "chaotic reshuffling" does not sound much like a deliberate laboratory recreation of your exact physical brain. Would this brain exist within a copy of your body, or would it be a disembodied brain in a vat? Presuming that we could actually perfectly recreate an individual, then their personality, memory, nervous system, sensory capacity AND neural network would be identical to the original. Once the body was functional, we would need to recreate the exact neurochemistry present at the time the original individual died.
IMO, This degree of exactness would be required in order for the individual to "resume" consciousness at close to the point that it ended. A few short-term memories would probably be lost, as they only float around for a brief time.
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deCypher



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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9304955 - 11/24/08 03:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Right, you'd probably need to reconstitute the body as well as the entire nervous system (not to mention the complex pattern of neurotransmitters and specific thresholds of activation of each neurons). Incredibly complex, but nonetheless theoretically possible.
This might go too far down the metaphysical rabbit hole, but what is motion from point A to point B if not destruction of the object at A and creation of the object at B?
To avoid the dilemma of what happens at the middle, let's zoom down to the smallest discrete units of space possible (a good analogy is that of a moving dot on a computer screen, for example). The dot moves from one pixel to another, but this is ontologically identical to the pixel at point A being deactivated while the pixel at point B is simultaneously reactivated.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9305011 - 11/24/08 03:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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We cannot simply "avoid" the middle. The middle is why movement is NOT destruction and creation, but continuation.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9305029 - 11/24/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Space is not infinitely divisible; at some point we must zoom down to discrete units, and then motion becomes indistinguishable from destruction and creation, no?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9305083 - 11/24/08 04:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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deCypher said:
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Veritas said:
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In this case, is death (in the sense of a permanent cessation of consciousness) even possible? Or do dead people simply wake up at some far-off, statistically unlikely yet sure to happen given enough of a long time-span, point in the future?
Even if the physical qualities of your brain were to be replicated at some point in the future, the experience of consciousness would belong to the individual body where that brain resides. "You" would no more recur within that physical structure than a deceased identical twin would recur within the body of his/her sibling.
Hey, hold on a minute. Do you have the same body that you did five minutes ago? Cells die all the time; your collection of neurons at this precise instant is not the same collection that it will be five minutes from now--and yet your consciousness remains continuous.
I'm not claiming consciousness can exist without a functioning brain; the point of the thought experiment is that if one recreates a functioning brain with an identical neural structure to when the old brain died, one would have to assume that consciousness would continue unabated in the new brain. A similar example can be noted in the thought experiment involving teleportation of one's body: if we destroy the old body and create an identical one in another location, would your consciousness be instantaneously transported to the new body?
This is an excellent thought experiment. Our mind is setup in an interesting way. Although our physical bodies our constantly being "reborn" in the sense that, from one second to the next, our physical being is not identical - the internal environment of cells change from one moment to the next, cells divide and move, etc - our mind is able to construct a rigid experience of continuity. (Which is why Buddhists claim that this apparently continuous "self" which the mind creates is simply an illusion.)
Physical brains most likely are responsible for producing consciousness. (In other words, consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the brain.) Some sort of mind-body dualism is still possible, because how this consciousness is "produced" by the brain is still a mystery, but at this point in our history, substance dualism doesn't seem likely.
If the physical brain that produces this consciousness is destroyed, then consciousness will be destroyed with it. If a new brain is created that is identical to the brain just destroyed, then a new consciousness will be created, but it will nevertheless be a new consciousness. From this new-brain's perspective, it may seem as if it has experienced a continuity of consciousness from one brain to another, but the consciousness of the old-brain will still have been destroyed.
The autobiographical memory of the old-brain which is recreated in the new-brain is what allows for the illusion of a continuity of consciousness from the old-brain to the new-brain.
For example, two computers may have identical hardware and be running identical software at identical times, but each computer will still have its own individual output. The output will be identical for both computers, but there will be two identical outputs, not one. In the same way, two brains, although identical, still produce two individual consciousnesses.
This all depends on consciousness being an epiphenomenon of the brain, though. If Descartes is correct, and the mind and brain are two distinct substances then a totally different answer is needed. If the "greedy reductionists" are correct, and the mind is physically reducible to the brain then a third answer is needed. If the single-cell-consciousness hypothesis is correct, then I don't know what to think!
Everyone should checkout the single-cell-consciousness hypothesis - its a good mindfuck.
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~regfjxe/awnew.htm
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Veritas

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9305144 - 11/24/08 04:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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No, because the passage of time is necessary. If the smallest unit simultaneously disappeared & then appeared elsewhere, we might say that it was destroyed and created. Because this does not occur without an interval of time, continuity of existence is implied from one frame to the next.
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deCypher



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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9305169 - 11/24/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Isn't time supposed to be discrete too?
Eventually we'd get to a point where the unit is in position A at one tick of the clock, and at the next tick the unit is in position B. As we can't divide time any further to see what's going on in between these two ticks, motion is indistinguishable from creation and destruction--we can't tell the difference.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Quote:
the internal environment of cells change from one moment to the next, cells divide and move, etc - our mind is able to construct a rigid experience of continuity. (Which is why Buddhists claim that this apparently continuous "self" which the mind creates is simply an illusion.)
Yet the structure which creates this "illusion" is apparently continuous. (As the cells of the cerebral cortex are the same age as the individual.)
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Veritas

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9305176 - 11/24/08 04:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's still not the same tick. Once we cannot go to a shorter "frame," continuity is implied. (Particularly because there is no evidence of destruction nor creation, but simply the appearance of an identical unit from one "frame" to the next.)
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: If the physical brain that produces this consciousness is destroyed, then consciousness will be destroyed with it. If a new brain is created that is identical to the brain just destroyed, then a new consciousness will be created, but it will nevertheless be a new consciousness. From this new-brain's perspective, it may seem as if it has experienced a continuity of consciousness from one brain to another, but the consciousness of the old-brain will still have been destroyed.
I like it. But aren't we technically creating "new" consciousnesses all the time then, if a continuous consciousness is an illusion?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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deCypher



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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9305209 - 11/24/08 04:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Veritas said: It's still not the same tick. Once we cannot go to a shorter "frame," continuity is implied.
But if one can imply continuity over a gap such as this, why can't we imply continuity over two, three, or an indefinite number of gaps?
It seems to me that conscious awareness is rather like a series of still frames sped up to resemble motion; we perceive it as being continuous when instead this is merely an illusion. What if we halted consciousness at one frame and resumed it on a different physical substrate?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9305220 - 11/24/08 04:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: If the physical brain that produces this consciousness is destroyed, then consciousness will be destroyed with it. If a new brain is created that is identical to the brain just destroyed, then a new consciousness will be created, but it will nevertheless be a new consciousness. From this new-brain's perspective, it may seem as if it has experienced a continuity of consciousness from one brain to another, but the consciousness of the old-brain will still have been destroyed.
I like it. But aren't we technically creating "new" consciousnesses all the time then, if a continuous consciousness is an illusion?
Yes, but our autobiographical memory and short-term memory allow us to retain a sense of continuity and a sense of self.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Right, so I don't see any difference between our current short-term memory allowing us to maintain a continuous sense of self and the duplicated short-term memory in the new brain maintaining this sense.
It seems that from the phenomenological point of view that one would continue to experience through the eyes of the new brain, no?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9305337 - 11/24/08 04:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Because a perceptible gap disproves continuity. If we cannot perceive a lapse in existence, this implies continuity. If we CAN perceive a lapse in existence (destruction), clearly continuity has been disproven.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9305365 - 11/24/08 04:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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What we need is an interpid reporter to cross the life/death barrier and then return. We could always tie a thick rope around your waist to yank you back if anything goes horribly wrong...
--------------------
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9305472 - 11/24/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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It seems that from the phenomenological point of view that one would continue to experience through the eyes of the new brain, no?
That depends on how you define "self," so I'll stick with consciousness/experience.
The short-term memory of the old-brain is destroyed along with everything else, so the old-brain would stop experiencing permanently. The new-brain would begin experiencing as if it was the old-brain.
The experience of the old-brain does not get transferred to the new-brain, but the content of the experience of the old-brain does get transferred.
What would happen if we didn't destroy the old-brain but still created a new-brain? The content of both brain's experiences may be the same, but each brain would be having its own independent experience.
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Nexion
Seeker


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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9309729 - 11/25/08 09:49 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: You have five seconds until you pull the trigger of your loaded .45 ACP that is currently placed against your right temple.
Describe the experience of death.
BLISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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deCypher



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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Nexion]
#9309971 - 11/25/08 10:42 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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. Or, if you've played your cards incorrectly, eternal hellfire and damnation.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Nexion
Seeker


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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9310585 - 11/25/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Naturally,
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Nexion]
#9311034 - 11/25/08 02:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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talking about what may occur after death is like talking about fairies and flying pigs.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deranger]
#9311391 - 11/25/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Except death is actually going to happen.
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deranger


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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9311412 - 11/25/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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yeah, but we are clueless as to what happens after death.
any kind of speculation is nothing more than fantasizing about goblins and fairies.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deranger]
#9311463 - 11/25/08 03:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Would you rather not speculate in favor of blinding your mind to the possibilities?
Or are you simply implying that there are better ways to be spending our time?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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deranger


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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9311522 - 11/25/08 03:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Would you rather not speculate in favor of blinding your mind to the possibilities?
considering a possibility is one thing, becoming attached to those possibilities is a completely different story imo.
Quote:
Or are you simply implying that there are better ways to be spending our time?
personally, there are more enjoyable ways to spend my time.
sometimes i enjoy such speculation, sometimes it just feels like a waste of time and energy.
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