Home | Community | Message Board

Original Seeds Store
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Bulk Substrate, Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9304893 - 11/24/08 03:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Again, the beginning time state and the ending time state are identical; why deny continuity of consciousness to the one and not to the other?




Because the middle is important, too.  :lol: 

Yes, a "chaotic reshuffling" does not sound much like a deliberate laboratory recreation of your exact physical brain.  Would this brain exist within a copy of your body, or would it be a disembodied brain in a vat?  Presuming that we could actually perfectly recreate an individual, then their personality, memory, nervous system, sensory capacity AND neural network would be identical to the original.  Once the body was functional, we would need to recreate the exact neurochemistry present at the time the original individual died.

IMO, This degree of exactness would be required in order for the individual to "resume" consciousness at close to the point that it ended.  A few short-term memories would probably be lost, as they only float around for a brief time.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
    #9304955 - 11/24/08 03:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Right, you'd probably need to reconstitute the body as well as the entire nervous system (not to mention the complex pattern of neurotransmitters and specific thresholds of activation of each neurons).  Incredibly complex, but nonetheless theoretically possible.

This might go too far down the metaphysical rabbit hole, but what is motion from point A to point B if not destruction of the object at A and creation of the object at B?

To avoid the dilemma of what happens at the middle, let's zoom down to the smallest discrete units of space possible (a good analogy is that of a moving dot on a computer screen, for example).  The dot moves from one pixel to another, but this is ontologically identical to the pixel at point A being deactivated while the pixel at point B is simultaneously reactivated.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9305011 - 11/24/08 03:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

We cannot simply "avoid" the middle.  The middle is why movement is NOT destruction and creation, but continuation.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
    #9305029 - 11/24/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Space is not infinitely divisible; at some point we must zoom down to discrete units, and then motion becomes indistinguishable from destruction and creation, no?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9305083 - 11/24/08 04:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

In this case, is death (in the sense of a permanent cessation of consciousness) even possible?  Or do dead people simply wake up at some far-off, statistically unlikely yet sure to happen given enough of a long time-span, point in the future?




Even if the physical qualities of your brain were to be replicated at some point in the future, the experience of consciousness would belong to the individual body where that brain resides. "You" would no more recur within that physical structure than a deceased identical twin would recur within the body of his/her sibling.




Hey, hold on a minute.  Do you have the same body that you did five minutes ago?  Cells die all the time; your collection of neurons at this precise instant is not the same collection that it will be five minutes from now--and yet your consciousness remains continuous.

I'm not claiming consciousness can exist without a functioning brain; the point of the thought experiment is that if one recreates a functioning brain with an identical neural structure to when the old brain died, one would have to assume that consciousness would continue unabated in the new brain.  A similar example can be noted in the thought experiment involving teleportation of one's body: if we destroy the old body and create an identical one in another location, would your consciousness be instantaneously transported to the new body?




This is an excellent thought experiment. :smile: Our mind is setup in an interesting way. Although our physical bodies our constantly being "reborn" in the sense that, from one second to the next, our physical being is not identical - the internal environment of cells change from one moment to the next, cells divide and move, etc - our mind is able to construct a rigid experience of continuity. (Which is why Buddhists claim that this apparently continuous "self" which the mind creates is simply an illusion.)

Physical brains most likely are responsible for producing consciousness. (In other words, consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the brain.) Some sort of mind-body dualism is still possible, because how this consciousness is "produced" by the brain is still a mystery, but at this point in our history, substance dualism doesn't seem likely.

If the physical brain that produces this consciousness is destroyed, then consciousness will be destroyed with it. If a new brain is created that is identical to the brain just destroyed, then a new consciousness will be created, but it will nevertheless be a new consciousness. From this new-brain's perspective, it may seem as if it has experienced a continuity of consciousness from one brain to another, but the consciousness of the old-brain will still have been destroyed.

The autobiographical memory of the old-brain which is recreated in the new-brain is what allows for the illusion of a continuity of consciousness from the old-brain to the new-brain.

For example, two computers may have identical hardware and be running identical software at identical times, but each computer will still have its own individual output. The output will be identical for both computers, but there will be two identical outputs, not one. In the same way, two brains, although identical, still produce two individual consciousnesses.

This all depends on consciousness being an epiphenomenon of the brain, though. If Descartes is correct, and the mind and brain are two distinct substances then a totally different answer is needed. If the "greedy reductionists" are correct, and the mind is physically reducible to the brain then a third answer is needed. If the single-cell-consciousness hypothesis is correct, then I don't know what to think!


Everyone should checkout the single-cell-consciousness hypothesis - its a good mindfuck.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~regfjxe/awnew.htm


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9305144 - 11/24/08 04:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No, because the passage of time is necessary.  If the smallest unit simultaneously disappeared & then appeared elsewhere, we might say that it was destroyed and created.  Because this does not occur without an interval of time, continuity of existence is implied from one frame to the next.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
    #9305169 - 11/24/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't time supposed to be discrete too?

Eventually we'd get to a point where the unit is in position A at one tick of the clock, and at the next tick the unit is in position B.  As we can't divide time any further to see what's going on in between these two ticks, motion is indistinguishable from creation and destruction--we can't tell the difference.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #9305172 - 11/24/08 04:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

the internal environment of cells change from one moment to the next, cells divide and move, etc - our mind is able to construct a rigid experience of continuity. (Which is why Buddhists claim that this apparently continuous "self" which the mind creates is simply an illusion.)




Yet the structure which creates this "illusion" is apparently continuous.  (As the cells of the cerebral cortex are the same age as the individual.)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9305176 - 11/24/08 04:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It's still not the same tick.  Once we cannot go to a shorter "frame," continuity is implied. (Particularly because there is no evidence of destruction nor creation, but simply the appearance of an identical unit from one "frame" to the next.)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #9305179 - 11/24/08 04:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
If the physical brain that produces this consciousness is destroyed, then consciousness will be destroyed with it. If a new brain is created that is identical to the brain just destroyed, then a new consciousness will be created, but it will nevertheless be a new consciousness. From this new-brain's perspective, it may seem as if it has experienced a continuity of consciousness from one brain to another, but the consciousness of the old-brain will still have been destroyed.




I like it.  But aren't we technically creating "new" consciousnesses all the time then, if a continuous consciousness is an illusion?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
    #9305209 - 11/24/08 04:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
It's still not the same tick.  Once we cannot go to a shorter "frame," continuity is implied.




But if one can imply continuity over a gap such as this, why can't we imply continuity over two, three, or an indefinite number of gaps?

It seems to me that conscious awareness is rather like a series of still frames sped up to resemble motion; we perceive it as being continuous when instead this is merely an illusion.  What if we halted consciousness at one frame and resumed it on a different physical substrate?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9305220 - 11/24/08 04:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
If the physical brain that produces this consciousness is destroyed, then consciousness will be destroyed with it. If a new brain is created that is identical to the brain just destroyed, then a new consciousness will be created, but it will nevertheless be a new consciousness. From this new-brain's perspective, it may seem as if it has experienced a continuity of consciousness from one brain to another, but the consciousness of the old-brain will still have been destroyed.




I like it.  But aren't we technically creating "new" consciousnesses all the time then, if a continuous consciousness is an illusion?




Yes, but our autobiographical memory and short-term memory allow us to retain a sense of continuity and a sense of self.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #9305240 - 11/24/08 04:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Right, so I don't see any difference between our current short-term memory allowing us to maintain a continuous sense of self and the duplicated short-term memory in the new brain maintaining this sense.

It seems that from the phenomenological point of view that one would continue to experience through the eyes of the new brain, no?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9305337 - 11/24/08 04:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Because a perceptible gap disproves continuity.  If we cannot perceive a lapse in existence, this implies continuity.  If we CAN perceive a lapse in existence (destruction), clearly continuity has been disproven.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9305365 - 11/24/08 04:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What we need is an interpid reporter to cross the life/death barrier and then return. We could always tie a thick rope around your waist to yank you back if anything goes horribly wrong...


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9305472 - 11/24/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It seems that from the phenomenological point of view that one would continue to experience through the eyes of the new brain, no?




That depends on how you define "self," so I'll stick with consciousness/experience.

The short-term memory of the old-brain is destroyed along with everything else, so the old-brain would stop experiencing permanently. The new-brain would begin experiencing as if it was the old-brain.

The experience of the old-brain does not get transferred to the new-brain, but the content of the experience of the old-brain does get transferred.

What would happen if we didn't destroy the old-brain but still created a new-brain? The content of both brain's experiences may be the same, but each brain would be having its own independent experience.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNexion
Seeker
Male

Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 648
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9309729 - 11/25/08 09:49 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
You have five seconds until you pull the trigger of your loaded .45 ACP that is currently placed against your right temple.

Describe the experience of death.



BLISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cruelworld:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Nexion]
    #9309971 - 11/25/08 10:42 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:.  Or, if you've played your cards incorrectly, eternal hellfire and damnation.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNexion
Seeker
Male

Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 648
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9310585 - 11/25/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Naturally, :wink:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblederanger
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Nexion]
    #9311034 - 11/25/08 02:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

talking about what may occur after death is like talking about fairies and flying pigs.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Bulk Substrate, Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* DEATH! Moonshoe 6,056 18 10/28/11 07:16 PM
by deCypher
* Explaining why life after death exists
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
dumlovesyou 7,327 92 04/05/03 12:36 PM
by buttonion
* Death and life after death.
( 1 2 all )
demiu5 2,214 26 11/09/05 11:54 PM
by shroommachine
* Review of the last century's phenomenology
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Swami 4,722 68 11/21/02 11:42 PM
by Jellric
* After death
( 1 2 all )
quemo 3,044 20 12/23/02 03:44 AM
by LOBO
* Neuron death/creation poke smot! 793 8 09/22/09 01:30 PM
by explosiveoxygen
* Life-After-Death
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Swami 4,142 102 12/25/05 05:49 AM
by Gomp
* Why is Phenomenology so esoteric and difficult? spud 1,342 5 04/28/07 11:52 PM
by spud

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,043 topic views. 3 members, 5 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 15 queries.