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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deranger]
#9303990 - 11/24/08 12:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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From your story, I'm fairly certain he's telling the truth about his experience.
I'd claim that it's nothing more than a lucid dream or OBE, though--all the result of neurons firing away in the brain.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9304018 - 11/24/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/key-to-brain-age-a-matter-of-fallout/2006/12/13/1165685752433.html
Quote:
Let me ask you, if the only difference between the old and new brain is the location of the atoms, and conscious experience absolutely stops upon destruction of the old, then how could we ever move our own brains around in space?
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9304019 - 11/24/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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good guess. i'm still extremely skeptical though.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


Registered: 10/05/08
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deranger]
#9304022 - 11/24/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think if you recreated the body atom for atom (which is absolutely impossible, and I can explain why if you need me to) then consciousness would 'start up' as IF it had not stopped. but the old consciousness would have ended. I think so, anyway. I dont think consciousness should really be thought of as a function of reality. It is just a part of reality. IF that makes sense. this is to say, consciousness is not 'determined' by the state of the world, it simply IS a state of the world, which we can cognitively 'determine' by making inferences based on the state of the world. But its all happening simultaneously, not in some causal directional pathway (if that sort of thing even exists).
As for my own little contribution, I dont really think neurons have to actually fire faster within a time period for that many experiences to happen.. it could be different. time could slow down but also could the progression of thoughts, seperately to the progression of experiential-consciousness-timeline-phenomenon. but yes it would probably suck if you died horifically
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Hahzist
Surfing theWaves of Chaos

Registered: 02/15/04
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9304044 - 11/24/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/key-to-brain-age-a-matter-of-fallout/2006/12/13/1165685752433.html
Quote:
Let me ask you, if the only difference between the old and new brain is the location of the atoms, and conscious experience absolutely stops upon destruction of the old, then how could we ever move our own brains around in space?
I read the article and I'm not a biologist.. but aren't neurons simply pathways for information and processes? I think your argument for memory may not apply here. As far as I know nobody knows exactly how memory works, but I dont think memory information is retained in neurons.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deranger]
#9304051 - 11/24/08 01:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deranger said: My best friend when I was in high school told me he had a NDE experience. He drown in a swimming pool and saw his body from 50 feet above. He saw his parents dive into the pool and pull him out.
This guy was no bullshitter. Yet, it's possible... but I don't see why he would've lied to me about something like that.
What was going on here, Veritas?
Well, there are many examples of people "remembering" events which did not occur or which they were not present to experience. Often these memories are created based upon context, stories told by others, wishful thinking, or in an effort to protect the self-concept.
If your friend combined his recollection of being in the pool with stories told by his parents, and filled in the details based upon context, he could very well have created a "memory" of what happened.
The key to discerning a true OBE would be knowledge of some detail which could not be assembled via context, stories & one's own memories prior to the incident. (i.e. the rescue is caught on a poolside security camera, and your friend verifies that a small bird landed on the water, then flew away before anyone arrived to rescue him. If he had included this detail in his description of what occurred while he was dead, this evidence would support his claim of having had an OBE.)
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9304059 - 11/24/08 01:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Let me ask you, if the only difference between the old and new brain is the location of the atoms, and conscious experience absolutely stops upon destruction of the old, then how could we ever move our own brains around in space?
I'm dead serious, in point of fact. 
Suppose we ask how it's possible to move a brain from one location to the next. At T-0, my brain is at a specific location. At T-1, it's at another. The brain at T-1 is comprised of identical neurons and structure, and is continuing the same physical processes that it was at the start. The only difference between the two times is that of location.
Now, what if we extend this concept of motion to duplication and destruction? At T-0, my brain is at a specific location. At T-1, my old brain has been destroyed and a new one, identical to the first, has been created at the new location.
These two processes are identical, the only difference being the modus of operandi between T-0 and T-1. If in the former you claim that consciousness is continuous from T-0 to T-1, it seems illogical to deny this for the latter.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Hahzist]
#9304089 - 11/24/08 01:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9304146 - 11/24/08 01:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
deranger said: My best friend when I was in high school told me he had a NDE experience. He drown in a swimming pool and saw his body from 50 feet above. He saw his parents dive into the pool and pull him out.
This guy was no bullshitter. Yet, it's possible... but I don't see why he would've lied to me about something like that.
What was going on here, Veritas?
Well, there are many examples of people "remembering" events which did not occur or which they were not present to experience. Often these memories are created based upon context, stories told by others, wishful thinking, or in an effort to protect the self-concept.
If your friend combined his recollection of being in the pool with stories told by his parents, and filled in the details based upon context, he could very well have created a "memory" of what happened.
The key to discerning a true OBE would be knowledge of some detail which could not be assembled via context, stories & one's own memories prior to the incident. (i.e. the rescue is caught on a poolside security camera, and your friend verifies that a small bird landed on the water, then flew away before anyone arrived to rescue him. If he had included this detail in his description of what occurred while he was dead, this evidence would support his claim of having had an OBE.)
good guess. i still remain very skeptical
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Hahzist
Surfing theWaves of Chaos

Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 214
Last seen: 12 years, 23 days
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
#9304188 - 11/24/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-memory.htm
Quote:
But today, experts believe that memory is far more complex and elusive than that -- and that it is located not in one particular place in the brain but is instead a brain-wide process.
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Your "memory" is really made up of a group of systems that each play a different role in creating, storing, and recalling your memories. When the brain processes information normally, all of these different systems work together perfectly to provide cohesive thought.
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the memory of how to operate the bike comes from one set of brain cells; the memory of how to get from here to the end of the block comes from another; the memory of biking safety rules from another; and that nervous feeling you get when a car veers dangerously close, from still another. Yet you're never aware of these separate mental experiences, nor that they're coming from all different parts of your brain, because they all work together so well.
You're previous article discussed a set of nuerons in a particular part of the brain that are as old as you are.
Not quite the same thing here.
Edited by Hahzist (11/24/08 01:32 PM)
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Hahzist]
#9304230 - 11/24/08 01:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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deCypher, have you ever read the book "The Physics of Immortality"? It would be right up your alley. It's all about the resurrection of the dead by uploading all possible brain states on to a super-powerful simulator at the end of time in a quantum singularity.
"The soul will be doing nothing, not even sleeping dreamlessly, because it won't exist. A human's soul is not naturally immortal and, when you're dead, you're dead until the Omega Point resurrects you. But no subjective time passes between the instant of death and the instant of resurrection, though in the universe as a whole trillians of years may pass"
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Definitely sounds like interesting reading! Do you know of any online pdfs of the book, or am I relegated to having to buy?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9304349 - 11/24/08 02:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't know of any online pdfs, I think you may have to buy it
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Hahzist]
#9304655 - 11/24/08 02:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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The cerebral cortex is as old as you are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_cortex
This is not a particular spot in the brain, but rather the neuron-rich processing layer. Memories are tightly-woven associations created within the neural network of the cerebral cortex.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9304686 - 11/24/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
These two processes are identical, the only difference being the modus of operandi between T-0 and T-1. If in the former you claim that consciousness is continuous from T-0 to T-1, it seems illogical to deny this for the latter.
OK, to clarify, your initial scenario seemed to indicate that another individual, against all the odds, would manage to recreate the exact physical configuration of your brain, through their own unique experiences, and that your consciousness would instantly "resume" in this brain copy. I was responding to THIS scenario.
You moved on to a deliberate recreation of a copy of your brain, presumably within a lab, and whether THIS scenario would result in your consciousness being instantly resumed at the point you died.
These are two VERY different scenarios. Both are also quite different from the continuous operation of my brain within my own skull in two different locations.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The phenomenology of death. *DELETED* [Re: deCypher]
#9304727 - 11/24/08 03:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by VeritasReason for deletion: Use the PM system, please.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Icelander]
#9304761 - 11/24/08 03:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
it stars saddam said: However, death and brain damage are obviously not the only possible outcomes of the quantum suicide experiment. You could load the gun and then decide against going through with the experiment, or you could load the gun and be apprehended by a stranger who bursts through the door and restrains you so that you are unable to complete the experiment, etc.
Right, but one has to look at which scenarios are the most probable (i.e. which configuration of reality is it more likely that my consciousness would continue to). Such situations as a stranger bursting through the door are less likely than the bullet still traveling through my brain and leaving me paralyzed, yet still conscious.
Quote:
Veritas said: OK, to clarify, your initial scenario seemed to indicate that another individual, against all the odds, would manage to recreate the exact physical configuration of your brain, through their own unique experiences, and that your consciousness would instantly "resume" in this brain copy. I was responding to THIS scenario. You moved on to a deliberate recreation of a copy of your brain, presumably within a lab, and whether THIS scenario would result in your consciousness being instantly resumed at the point you died.
These are two VERY different scenarios. Both are also quite different from the continuous operation of my brain within my own skull in two different locations.
Quote:
deCypher said: Now, what if at some point, far off in the distant future, a chaotic shuffling of molecules happened to produce an identical copy of your brain.
I don't see how this implies that another individual would recreate the identical physical configuration through their unique experiences, but apologies if I didn't communicate well enough--the intent of the thought experiment is to recreate the exact same pattern of interacting atoms and molecules that your current brain constitutes, presumably through an advanced laboratory of sorts.
I'd still like to see a counter-argument against my motion example. Again, the beginning time state and the ending time state are identical; why deny continuity of consciousness to the one and not to the other?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
Edited by Veritas (11/24/08 03:26 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
#9304776 - 11/24/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Lies. Damned lies and slander.
Big maybe, but I don't think it's going to get deleted
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Hahzist
Surfing theWaves of Chaos

Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 214
Last seen: 12 years, 23 days
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Icelander]
#9304856 - 11/24/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Posts getting deleted...really?
What happened here?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Hahzist]
#9304882 - 11/24/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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God has determined that I answered the query incorrectly.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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