Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineHelpme1
freak
Male


Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 1,424
Loc: shlums-of-meltbanana
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: Middleman]
    #9297030 - 11/23/08 12:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Objectivity is erroneous. "Experience" in and of itself proves that all life is subjective. This means that once we begin to experience life, we lose all objectivity, we can only experience life through our own peepholes, consequently we prejudge things, thus the discourse on philosophy began. In the constant search for objetive truth, humanity falls EVER short because of the relativity of knowledge. We put benign labels on EVERYTHING that we percieve, which in effect it loses its OBJECTIVE MEANING. This is why we can never hold any knowledge or "truth" because "truth" is relative, and life is infinitely subjective.

Our discourse is what shapes or maps our reality. It is through experience that we posit ourselves to an ontology. So perhaps instead of perpetually questioning and answering this question of reality with: our realities are "unimportant" in a universal sense,  or our "being" in the universe is ultimately MEANINGLESS. Why don't we instead confront reality with hearty (and effectually malicious) intent and LIVE our LIVES because, I think we can all agree that reality itself can never be avoided. Would this not solve your questions of ontology?

Also many of you are mildly correct in your stance that we shouldn't question reality. Why? Reality cannot be avoided. So instead we should CONFRONT reality, and live in it.
As such we see two realities or truths emerging. "Subjectivity or Relative Truth" and "Objectivity" or reality in and of itself, independent of the way things appear to us (our perceptions) This was termed "being" by Emmanual Kant.

Everyone on the shroomery is SO full of shit, quite ammusing actually.


--------------------
:bobmarley:
"woah, that cat was really buggin out man, you should have put on some grateful dead so he could relax and enjoi his trip" -random shroomerite


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePlasmid
Absent
Male

Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 1,719
Last seen: 15 years, 24 days
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: Helpme1]
    #9297325 - 11/23/08 01:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Helpme1 said:
Everyone on the shroomery is SO full of shit, quite ammusing actually.




And what are we supposed to make of arrogant posts like yours?  Just because you say that everyone is full of shit, we should believe you?  Aren't you full of shit?

Quote:

"Experience" in and of itself proves that all life is subjective.




No it doesn't.

I don't think that you're full of shit or that most people here are full of shit.  I think that you aren't critically thinking about what you're saying.

Experience is subjective, but the fact that living organisms can have subjective experiences does not mean that all of life is subjective. 

Most of your post, IMO, is such mumbo jumbo that I'd have a hard time giving it a good criticism.  It's mostly nonsense because you're jumping from one conclusion to the next based on nothing.  It's like you've given us a map for how to get across a series of islands but all the bridges you tell us to take don't exist.

Quote:

This means that once we begin to experience life, we lose all objectivit




We don't experience life.  We have experiences in life.  That doesn't mean that objective truth doesn't exist.  It just means that perhaps subjective experience is not a perfectly accurate representation of everything else.

Why is knowledge relative?  Why does using a word (signifier) to represent something (signified) mean that "it" (the signified?) loses objective meaning?  Using words may compromise the objectivity of knowledge encoded by those words, but it doesn't necessarily nullify that knowledge entirely.

I think that making unnecessarily pretentious and verbose posts obscures objectivity and meaning.  Needlessly inserting adjectives and making CHOICE words bold just detracts from the point you're trying to make.


--------------------
Absent.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblezannennagara
Found in Space
Male


Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: Epigallo]
    #9297511 - 11/23/08 01:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Assessing "absolute" or "objective" importance/significance/meaning seems to be an appeal to a higher power or authority figure, an ironically theistic viewpoint considering that most saying "We have no meaning" would think themselves opposed to the idea of a monotheistic father-figure God.

You are part of the cosmos, and as far as we can tell there is no one guy pulling all the strings, so why would you address your value judgments to His absolute perspective, whatever that means (because there's the paradox of what created God and is beyond God)? A heliocentric model refers to the force of gravity, not "meaning."

We are tiny parts of a vast universe yet capable of such profoundly moving experiences and emotions and thought systems, so why not take that to mean something wonderful?


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHelpme1
freak
Male


Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 1,424
Loc: shlums-of-meltbanana
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: zannennagara]
    #9298764 - 11/23/08 05:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

to plasmid: LOLZORZ

Knowledge is relative at the point where reality is experienced subjectively.

"We don't experience life"
So you once again are trying to avoid reality. Reality(experiencing life) cannot be avoided. Don't even try arguing that we don't "experience life". Seriously. It discredits your entire critique.

At the point when we begin to experience life, as in, once the external world creates a relationship with the internal world of our cognitive mind. That is- Once our heart starts to beat, we take our first breaths of air. Our mind is at work! We begin to think, create shemas, or concepts in our mind. These mental shemas or concepts are Based off of the reality that we experience. It has a lot to do with psychology too actually, we form opinions, judgments that are based upon our experiences...what else would we have to base opinions on?You are saying that we are born tabula rasa and continue through our life to be a clean slate? Never accepting external knowledge ? That we can some how remain nuetral ?

Also having "experiences in life", like you say, mutually excludes objective truth knowledge.

The knowledge that we have only has value when we OURSELVES ASSIGN it value. Meaning that these "truths", these 'knowledges' that we believe to be true, are only valuable in the sense that we have assigned them to relative, subjective value.


--------------------
:bobmarley:
"woah, that cat was really buggin out man, you should have put on some grateful dead so he could relax and enjoi his trip" -random shroomerite


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHelpme1
freak
Male


Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 1,424
Loc: shlums-of-meltbanana
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: zannennagara]
    #9298834 - 11/23/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

We don't all experience reality the same. Example: Two people are rooting for differing football teams, once team wins, one team loses. These two people have experienced the game SUBJECTIVELY. as one person wanted team A to win, and the other wanted team B to win. Only one team can win. Some the person that wanted team A to win feels he is a winner when his team wins, and person B feels he is a loser.

I don't know if I can simplify the conecpt of subjective reality any further. Neither person could have experienced this neutrally, and if he attempted to do so, he would have created a subjective intersectionality of choice, by CHOOSING; HE CHOSE 'SUBJECTIVELY' TO REMAIN NEUTRAL.

The relativity of knowledge could be understood like this: You attempt to explain a concept; the concept of objectivity. Through your discourse, your attempt at definition fell short. You could not break through my subjective lense, the cataract of subjectivity, if you will. You gave a defintion based upon your relatively narrow scope of knowledge (pun intended), YOUR RELATIVE KNOWLEDGE. YOUR THOUGHTS. YOUR BELIEFS ON THE SUBJECT. Did they fall short? yes. Did I understand? No. Was it your subjective discourse that fell short?  yes. Your belief based upon prior experience on the subject, correct?

Therefor, we can easily see how subjectivity destroys the truth of the matter, even assuming that you are correct in your understanding of objectivity, your relative knowledge on the subject could not define even a feeble, weak, truth on the matter. Your own attempt at the definition of objectivity fell short in turn BECAUSE OF THE RELATIVITY OF KNOWLEDGE.


--------------------
:bobmarley:
"woah, that cat was really buggin out man, you should have put on some grateful dead so he could relax and enjoi his trip" -random shroomerite


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblezannennagara
Found in Space
Male


Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: Helpme1]
    #9299648 - 11/23/08 07:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What is "the truth of the matter?" You must realize that "no knowledge or experience can be objective" (or the like) is an absurd statement: using "objective" presumes you have some definition of the word, a definition of which you say cannot exist.

From freedictionary.com:

adj.
1. Of or having to do with a material object.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3.
a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic.
b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.

You seem to be extrapolating a different definition of objectivity that could not possibly be true. What is truth to you, and how can you possibly define or reject it if you say that nobody can experience it?


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.


Edited by zannennagara (11/23/08 07:46 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNoteworthy
Sophyphile
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 10 days
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: zannennagara]
    #9301249 - 11/23/08 11:51 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

no one has ever had access to the objective reality. If it exists, it is beyond our scope of experience in this world. however, we can try to get an idea of what it is by developing ways of considering the world that can be replicated by any observer. nevertheless, we can only get closer to objectivity, but never actually reach it.
it is very abstract idea.. that there is this concrete world out there. However, we dont really have a choice in whether to believe it or not because we assume it our whole lives anyway and if we stopped assuming it, we would likely fail at life


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblezannennagara
Found in Space
Male


Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9301449 - 11/24/08 12:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Again, what is your meaning of objective reality? What does it mean to have a concept of something that no one has ever had access to and that is beyond our scope of experience? This sense (of a human) of an ultimate objective reality which no human will ever know seems a lot like belief in God as a distinct and exalted entity.

I don't think that different experiences or thoughts mean individual objectivity is irreconcilable because I don't look at objectivity as one particular perspective of experiences or thoughts, "truer" or "higher" than the rest. I think of it as the underlying connections communicated between and by all such perspectives, intrinsic to everything rather than an Other above everything.


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNoteworthy
Sophyphile
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 10 days
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: zannennagara]
    #9301531 - 11/24/08 12:38 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

yes actually, you have to have faith in objective reality.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9301593 - 11/24/08 12:51 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I have heard this way too many times which is why I created the Swami 'Rock-to-the-back-of-the-head' Challenge. So far no one has volunteered to test their personal theory.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblezannennagara
Found in Space
Male


Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9301599 - 11/24/08 12:53 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Faith in the same sense of faith in any existence whatsoever, perhaps, but faith to me implies a belief without logical or scientific support, and I think logic and science are able to explain and exemplify objective truth.


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNoteworthy
Sophyphile
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 10 days
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: zannennagara]
    #9301690 - 11/24/08 01:12 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You cannot use logic to prove objective truth. You can only use logic + assumed objective truths, to find more objective truths. But if you dont have an objective truth in your premises to begin with, you cannot conclude anything objective.

every single person has 'faith' in something. Some people just have faith in strange things that defy logic, and other people make sure to organise their faiths away into things that are 'common sense' or 'duh' issues, so that they never really have to adress their faiths.

but we all have faith.

even scientists.

I find it a little odd when people say 'faith means believing things  without logical support '... when The only thing we can know without faith is that we exist right now... 'i think therefor I am'... everything else can be false, according to LOGIC.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblezannennagara
Found in Space
Male


Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9301822 - 11/24/08 01:41 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

How are you defining "objective truth?"


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNoteworthy
Sophyphile
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 10 days
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: zannennagara]
    #9302098 - 11/24/08 03:30 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

how many ways could I be defining it? I am referring to the concept of a truth that is seperate from an observer, that is, without bias. a truth statement about an object which is not trully influenced in any way by the subject's qualities.
how do you define objective truth?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblezannennagara
Found in Space
Male


Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9303784 - 11/24/08 12:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

adj.
1. Of or having to do with a material object.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3.
a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic.
b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.

I posted this already. The meaning you've given only applies slightly to 3a, but there's nothing about objectivity being unobserved. Again, I think you are extrapolating a conception of the word that is self-contradictory. Humans, all of whom are observers, are the only ones forming the concepts here, so why would we create a concept of truth that none of us can possibly understand or experience, ever? How can anything assess or conceptualize truth without observation?

I would say that it's nonsensical to define objectivity in those terms. Any perspectival concept of truth we come up with will have to be contingent on our observation, else we couldn't have come up with the concept in the first place. Objective truth to me involves observed relationships/connections between objects, whether materials, thoughts or experiences, the common language that underlies existence.

This is what I mean about faith without logical support. I'm perfectly fine with feelings and experiences that stand out as extraordinary or unexplained fully; the problem is then insisting on explaining the phenomenon as beyond science or logic, because you're creating an irreconcilable dualism instead of trying to incorporate the experiences. Science and logic are only systems of explanation after the facts, and there can be no fact so special that it cannot possibly be explained. Disagreement with the particular explanation is fine, I do it all the time, but you can't give your experience immunity from logical incorporation just because it doesn't fit with the current way of explaining things.


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: zannennagara]
    #9303803 - 11/24/08 12:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zannennagara said:
I would say that it's nonsensical to define objectivity in those terms.




No, it could also mean that truly objective phenomena do not exist.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblezannennagara
Found in Space
Male


Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: deCypher]
    #9304009 - 11/24/08 12:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It could mean that if you want it to, but I disagree with holding a meaning of truth as something nonexistent. You could focus your truth assessment on the differences of observer experience, or you could focus it on the similarities.


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: zannennagara]
    #9304014 - 11/24/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What if there is no Truth?

:strokebeard:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblezannennagara
Found in Space
Male


Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: zannennagara]
    #9304048 - 11/24/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Same as above.

Whether you say the world contains truth or no truth, its interrelationships are still the same.


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNoteworthy
Sophyphile
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 10 days
Re: Cosmic significance of self [Re: deCypher]
    #9304076 - 11/24/08 01:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

1. Of or having to do with a material object.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3.
a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic.
b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.

these are not different definitions of objective.

1. is this an actual material object we are tlaking about or is someone referring to an observed material object? Well people can only ever end up talking knowlegably about observed material objects (because these are the only objects that would have 'actual' qualities).
2. what is 'actual' existance or reality? Believe it or not but 'actual' is basically synonymous with 'objective'.
3a. no critic is fully objective, all critics have their biases. we all know this!!!
3b. you cant define objective by observations.. or else you would 'objectively' conclude that the walls are breathing...

therefor the only definition I was using was deifnition 2.

The other definitions are fallacious, they are figurative, approximate.

but how do you tell what is 'actual'?

all we can do is appeal to our observations.

which are subjective.

I think you will be up against the world if you try to claim humans experience the universe without individual bias.
these individual biases are what make something subjective and not objective.

why would humans use a concept that they can never actually prove true?

well I think that is a really dumb question to ask, mate. Since when was there ever a reasonable excuse for any of human's weird tendancies?

anyway the point is not that it can be proven true but that it can be USED as IF true, because everyone agrees.

this is how we functionally define objectivity, even if we conceptually define it as 'the actual state of the world'.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* On Significator/Potentiator Matrix akira_akuma 175 0 01/18/18 02:28 PM
by akira_akuma
* Do you own your transpersonal (psychedelic, cosmic, mystical) experiences or do you project them?
( 1 2 3 all )
redtailedhawk 5,880 43 11/07/11 05:09 AM
by Infinitys Minute
* Whats the most important thing?
( 1 2 3 all )
Icelander 1,893 54 09/16/05 12:14 PM
by Veritas
* Importance of God Ravus 2,191 17 12/27/04 07:23 AM
by Moonshoe
* Cosmic Horror Source 1,135 17 02/28/04 08:19 AM
by fireworks_god
* Don't Forget the Cosmic Experience Earth_Droid 1,081 13 02/06/04 12:02 AM
by Swami
* LSD, Sex, Cosmic Consciousness and Evolution
( 1 2 all )
Swami 3,958 39 11/26/07 05:47 PM
by redgreenvines
* How important is your planetside trip? *DELETED*
( 1 2 all )
Epigallo 1,758 33 02/24/07 12:10 AM
by BlueCoyote

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,921 topic views. 3 members, 5 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 15 queries.