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Invisibleredgreenvines
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unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2
    #9290654 - 11/22/08 09:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I am always derailed when talking to people about mind or consciousness, and they start bringing in unconscious mind, or subconscious mind.

Mostly I think it is just a bit sloppy,
unconscious mind to me is like asleep, conked, amnesiac, or somnabulistically flopping towards consciousness but not making it.

subconscious to me means activity that is engaged but not interacting directly with the moment.

and conscious to me means the part of mind that is interacting with the environment.

when people say that you are acting in conflict with your subconscious mind, I take that to mean that you are involved with the issue more deeply than your actions suggest.

I do not take that to mean that you are necessarily unaware of your deeper involvements,
but it could mean that there is a conflict between this moment in public,
as opposed to during other times and maybe in private.

to distil that a tiny bit further,
in my opinion what is taken for subconscious thoughts, are thoughts that are more suitable to other situations,
other times, and possibly for other audiences; so they do not tend to surface but they occur Off-Stage, yet are actually conscious.

What is taken for conscious thoughts are those that can
be expressed more readily in the current moment in the current environment, ergo: On-Stage.

and one step beyond that,
if a thought is not conscious, (i.e. synthetic with the moment and environment - either On-Stage or Off-Stage), then it is merely potential, i.e. does not actually exist as a thought - it is a non-event.

any "subconscious" thought, that is real, is actually conscious, just not revealed.

this would suggest that I am in disagreement about what subconscious means to most people.

another area of non-agreement for me is the idea that subconscious mind is a place, a place of storage and activity that "operates by rules of its own" contrary to civilized order.

as far as it being a place, mind is the stage, memory is associative storage in the very material of that stage, and there is no separate storage for unruly memory, attitude etc. as opposed to civilized memory or attitude.

all associations are equally distributed in the whole of the mind.

this "place-oriented" description of subconscious mind, seems very much a mythology for excusing one's less becoming behavior.


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OfflineLion
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9290667 - 11/22/08 09:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I'm feeling good about coffee and Christmas this morning.


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ā€œStrengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.ā€


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InvisibleChronic7

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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9290703 - 11/22/08 09:27 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)




"all there is, is consciousness"

what else?


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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9290741 - 11/22/08 09:43 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

When I was younger I went to math class. At the end of class there was a problem on the board. The problem rarely made any sense to me, but I did not worry… I went about doing what I always did which did not include math. The next day the problem was still on the board only this time was crystal clear which gave me five minutes to put it down on paper.


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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Recondicom]
    #9290814 - 11/22/08 10:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

over the 24 hours
the dent the question made
in your wooden head
became filled with answers.

happens to me all the time.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9290853 - 11/22/08 10:28 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Great post. :thumbup:


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9290934 - 11/22/08 10:53 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Which brings me to the point of knowing what my brain is made of.


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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Recondicom]
    #9291444 - 11/22/08 12:51 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

very resilliant wood
conditions persist then fade


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9291462 - 11/22/08 12:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Since when are we allowed two takes? :mad:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9291595 - 11/22/08 01:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

ok you can have 3
long as you say hi to swami


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9291652 - 11/22/08 01:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

[]bwhen people say that you are acting in conflict with your subconscious mind, I take that to mean that you are involved with the issue more deeply than your actions suggest.


:thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9291703 - 11/22/08 01:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Is this a spectrum from conscious to unconscious in your model or are there quantum jumps?


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9291809 - 11/22/08 01:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think it's a continuum; not a rigidly separated and defined collection of consciousnesses.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Epigallo]
    #9291942 - 11/22/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Is this a spectrum from conscious to unconscious in your model or are there quantum jumps?



in so far that there are degrees of being awakenned.
everything else is the dents.
conditioning that we carry forward


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: deCypher]
    #9291964 - 11/22/08 02:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

My collection is almost complete. I am only missing the rare 1956 Alan Watts card.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9291987 - 11/22/08 02:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I'll trade ya for two mint Robert Anton Wilsons.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: deCypher]
    #9292053 - 11/22/08 02:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I can trade you a Sabina and a Ginsberg...


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9292060 - 11/22/08 02:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Swap out the Ginsberg for a Burroughs and you got a deal.

:stoned:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: deCypher]
    #9292128 - 11/22/08 02:48 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

nice hand


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9292587 - 11/22/08 04:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

degrees of being awakened?
I mean, just taking a snapshot,
when consciousness is at a fixed degree of awakened-ness.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Epigallo]
    #9295817 - 11/23/08 03:33 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

we are thinkings so many things at once. almost everything around us inspires thoughts which inspire thoughts on and on. but Consciousness onnly deals with some of those thoughts at once. Even though some thoughts are not dealth with in the conscious realm, they continue to interact with eachother and set the stage for what conscious thoughts come next.

if someone is in conflict with their subconscious self, it just means that their are thoughts inside them which they cannot consciously grasp but which still influence their emotions and might conflict with the things they CAN (or DO) consciously grasp.

in 'other situations' these subconscious thoughts might be able to be grasped, eg if put in the right situation or context, or given hints or shown the world 'through the right perspective'.

and others.. theyre just subconscious almost all the time

'inner peace' can be a matter of becoming aware of all the internal forces pushing around inside you, so that you can resolve them instead of trying to do things to appease certain aspects of the mind while being unable to see how you are offending others


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9296021 - 11/23/08 05:33 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

quantum;
if the picture would be frozen,  no spectrum of consciousness from unconscious to conscious. that is on and off.
however as regards degrees of resonance (or awakenedness) there is a huge spectrum or variance or experience types from quite dull & spotty to very elaborately enriched.
when the awakenedness is very low it is almost like unconscious or no consciousness.
that is also like a very thin trickle of a stream of consciousness.

dr bill;
you just wrote a play,
you have staged specific characters interacting with full personalities
while trying to articulate a process that is supposed to be general.

i think this is the problem with the idea of sub conscious.
sub conscious is not another stream of consciousness running below radar.
it is just the conditioned aspect of the mind, potential for thought, and reactions.

most ideas and actions have some component or factor of conditioned existence, which would be dependent upon previous experience.
some ideas and actions are artifactual (i.e. not directly prompted by conditioning) and arise as synthesis of other events in the gestalt.

separately there are instances when people are more layered and consciousness seems to be more than one person at a time by virtue of an idea persisting longer than normal while the next arises to counter and it sticks around while the next counters that.
this apparent multiple stream can suggest that normally streams are running below the radar.

to explain that kind of thing, and to skirt around the mechanics of associative memory and thinking, the idea of a subconscious was proposed.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9296074 - 11/23/08 06:14 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i wasnt proposing two fully functioning personalities -
there is only one fully functioning personality but it is not conscious of all of its functioning parts. those functioning parts that it is not conscious of, is the subconscious/unconscious. consciousness is just a little part of whats going on in our minds at any one moment.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9296103 - 11/23/08 06:39 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

right,
not conscious of functioning parts to a degree
i.e. most of us do not watch the mechanism

here "functioning" denotes holding associativity or reaction potential, or can trigger a memory/sequence/response.

as such there are no signposts in the terrain of consciousness indicating that such and such stimulus will at this juncture give that response - so to this extent we are not conscious of the functioning parts.

the parts, however, are the whole,
and the whole is an association machine.
what happens together in an experience becomes conditioned as a memory (snapshots & short sequences).
what is simmilar (by motif/or holographic interference matching) is also associated.
the associations are relatively permanent bindings.
what is repeated is more strongly bound.
simmilar motif's in ongoing consciousness, may engender recall.

that is the nature of conditioning.
it is the mind fabric, not a separate consciousness.

consciousness is just the active stream/area where experiencing excites the associative fabric. (the stage)

the attitudes or masks that emerge from the associative fabric take on the aspect of personality on the stage of experiencing.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9296177 - 11/23/08 07:21 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

but how does conditioning have to do with the difference between conscious and subconscious?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9296200 - 11/23/08 07:31 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

well
there is no subconscious
it is just potential associativity.

calling it subconscious mind presumes a split in something that is whole, and presumes a mechanism other than mere associativity.

also
in many cases the subconscious is presented as a host of other personalities, urges, intentions, or secret motives, etc.;
while it is really just how the fabric of mind is wound up to respond by virtue of conditioning.

i.e. mind is not other than mind, &
consciousness does not have a secret co-rider called the subconscious,
in stead we have to see that that is the conditioned potential of the whole mind itself.

extra personalities are what seems to emerge as fading of signals extends: i.e. when mental state is more layered,
that is when more than one stream of consciousness can be concurrent - it can be very rich, or scary.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9296308 - 11/23/08 08:25 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i think you gotta get over the 'co-rider' idea though..

it is merely a layman's idea of subconscious

the sort of thing that people try to refer to when they 'blame' their subconscious mind for things or for thoughts.

All neurons are firing at least 60hz and others fire faster depending on the strength of their activation.

certain activations seem to correlate with consciousness while others seem correlate according to mental processes that are not included in conscious awareness.

teh words conscious mind and unconscious mind are not like two seperate things, they are descriptions of the state of one thing. eg, some parts of brain action will be of a state which correlates with consciousness, others will not


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9296439 - 11/23/08 09:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
i think you gotta get over the 'co-rider' idea though..

it is merely a layman's idea of subconscious

the sort of thing that people try to refer to when they 'blame' their subconscious mind for things or for thoughts.

All neurons are firing at least 60hz and others fire faster depending on the strength of their activation.

certain activations seem to correlate with consciousness while others seem correlate according to mental processes that are not included in conscious awareness.

teh words conscious mind and unconscious mind are not like two seperate things, they are descriptions of the state of one thing. eg, some parts of brain action will be of a state which correlates with consciousness, others will not




i agree,
the co rider thing, is the problem with the terminology (both psychiatric and lay terminology); specifically wrt the term "subconscious".

the topic of firing of neurons is about how the fabric works.

I am not sure why you would introduce this comment
"All neurons are firing at least 60hz and others fire faster depending on the strength of their activation."
(all-the set of all neurons- and others - a set of neurons that are not among the all set- is not a statement that resolves)

there is some wiring in the brain that involves feedback (i.e. via thalamus and basal ganglia).
the feedback supports pulse trains (sensory feeds and memory feeds into the fabric) the aggregate of pulse trains differentiate what is happenning in the moment from what is not happenning, and enables cells involved in the matrix of activation to be interconnected into a memory image.


in any case, any active part of the cortex contributes to consciousness. this is the action on stage; cortex activity is the stage set and action.

the aggregate of potential linkages that may become triggerred (also cortex) are mis-labeled subconscious. the part of mind that is not resonating.

the moment any part of the brain is resonating, it contributes to consciousness.


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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9299521 - 11/23/08 07:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Rider: The bully
Co-rider: The liar.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Recondicom]
    #9299591 - 11/23/08 07:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

who is doing the identifying?
(one, two or three?)

i think when you have co-riders, it is seldom just 2, and it has a lot to do with stretching the sense of time out too. (i.e being stoned, emotional, or in dreams)

one person can become many when extra persistence kicks in.
each enduring character has live reaction contexts and they can interact semi-autononmously.

it can be hillarious, or very painful.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9301383 - 11/24/08 12:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

well i included the 60hz comment to reinforce the fact that teh whole brain is always 'active', and some bits are just 'more active'.

at any rate, I dont really think that consciousness resides in the cortex. I think it exists as processing in the inner brain, whereas the cortex gives it the great number of tools, symbols that it can manifest. subconscious processes can involve communications between parts of the cortex which do not all feed into the inner brain.

The reason I think the inner brain contains consciousness is because I cannot see animals just moving from non-conscious to conscious. They are all conscious, but higher animals have a lot more at their conscious disposal, and this correlates with the increased cortex size and differentiation.

but this is only my hunch


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9302141 - 11/24/08 04:11 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i get it
you think these animals have no cortex.
so the hunch is wrong.
they do have cortex it is just less complex and in many creatures it is not even wrinkled.
they have plenty of consciousness, and that resides largely in cortex, they have but less memory fixation and less recall, less conditioned personality.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9302210 - 11/24/08 04:57 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well, i didnt say nor did I think that the animals have no cortex. I just dont think it is responsible for consciousness. Why do you?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9302309 - 11/24/08 06:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

because that is the destination of all sensory pathways, the source of all motor pathways,
and it's dendritic mass is a great place where all the signals can mix, form memories and generate recall based impulses (and this activity is mostly what you see on an eeg)

every other structure is related to routing (chiasma), gateway (basal ganglia, thalamus), pulse modulation/attenuation (reticular formation), pulse delay/sequencing (eg cerebellum), or autonomic hormonal modulation - amygdala and reptile/ pre-reptile structures.

only cortex is an endpoint, source, or integrator/reverberator.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9302526 - 11/24/08 08:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

mmm

I think you are discounting those latter elements as teh elements of consciousness. to me, consciousness involves the direct moment between desires and reactions and impulses. all the specifics of memories and how tehy interact, of mental pathways and where they lead, I think this stuff goes on behind the veil of consciousness. its like the cortex forms 'units' of thought and 'collections' of thoughts, and 'orders' of thoughts, but in the end they all end up coming together as a created world in consciousness, and a world which we can manipulate. eg we can manipulate thoughts by simply thinking about them. this is something that seperates us from animals. but as far as consciousness goes, this is just a matter of more stable and complex units of thought arising that encompas vivid abstract information which can in itself be thought of as a constant aspect of the environment, just like the world created from our senses.

we have this extra loop going on which allows consciousness to react to more and more abstract things (because once you can think of something abstract, you can think abstractly about it, and from the two abstract notions, more abstractions can be made.

we as humans give ourselves a lot of credit for our thoughts. usually, great things are the product of practice, which puts everything at the hands of consciousness in an appropriate manner for reaction, and creativity - which, like an impulse, pushes novel neural formations (structures and perhaps time-related codes in the cortex) into consciousness.

I mean, this is even how I think about my life these days, and information, knowlege, the ability to perform actions with skill or without skill. I have to program into my consciousness the means. I can do this by focusing my attention in certain places. by directing effort to certain ends which i can consciously grasp. but am I consciously constructing them or relating them to other thoughts? I dont think so. I think that information just appears to me depending on which thoughts I push effort into (and thus engage with)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9302997 - 11/24/08 09:49 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

abstract notions, and meta layers of thought, (all the castles in the sky - so to speak) are what resonate more forward in the cortex, as opposed to the middle and rear parts which include body -world sense, and memory.

those notions occur co-temporally with body/world consciousness, and signals from that activity wash over the rest of the cortex when you are immersed in that type of thinking. (in turn elevating the new memories of the ongoing moments or depressing them)

it does not require any additional structure than the cortex itself, except for holding onto an idea, - or swinging from one to another, which involves some basal ganglia and the feedback that can fix an idea into memory, or help memory emerge on the stage - which is the whole cortex as a unit.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9303422 - 11/24/08 11:06 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I dont think an abstract notion/meta layers of thought all exist in prefrontal cortex because words are very abstract notions but these are processed in the temporal lobes when receiving text.

by abstract thought, i mean symbolic thought.

I think the abstract thought you are talking about is stuff which is aBOUt abstract things, but abstract thoughts are central to our lives and often refer to very concrete things

eg. reading the words 'chicken farm' can inspire heaps of meaning, a lot of which is just associated with the meaning of these words. ITs basically all abstract info though. Its hard to think of things concretely except when they are reinforcing themselves in the present. otherwise, we have to rely on internal abstractions to keep track

So in direct response, I would consider the frontal lobes to be concerned with abstractions of abstractions (that is, thoughts about thoughts, or senses about senses). But the rest of the cortex also deals with abstractions. the 'anterior' abstractions however cannot interact on a conscious level without interacting through frontal lobe abstractions.

and i dont like using the word abstraction so much because it has various meanings in common language which might be more specific than the general sense I am using here


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9303741 - 11/24/08 12:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I like the amigdala. The primitive brain does not need any cortex and it defines consciousness as a mere ā€œfeelingā€. Even bacteria feel heat and cold. Most of the dialog of the frontal cortex has to do with vision, but the search for emotion is what triggers the thought. (as ex DNA conditioning of looking and connecting ā€œnice assā€)  Repression/Augmentation goes on where we could insert conversation.  As the brain gets tired of the mambo/jumbo it searches for synesthetic pathways to abstract itself.  Animal noises help. Lots of jumping around, monkey smelling the flowers, the cabin log, and ultimately the fresh air. 
      As the blind attentively hears eyes fixed, the quality of the BS counts.
      Other senses jump in wanting a piece of existence. Naturally, the pursue of happiness and whatever that means would go in any direction. Conditioning of the pure thought will require a moralistic/virtuous approach of educating the amigdala to a mere bleep. A Socratic What is virtue? Whether the senses will revolt is depending on the creation of pathways to a new consciousness. Some hedonic brains write on this particular issue commonly with the availability of chemicals. The amigdala loves the variety of chemicals. But the DNA…(bleep)


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  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9307110 - 11/24/08 08:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

you are right about temporal having abstract content and hearing oriented or language oriented content
you would expect that for a region of the cortex that gets its sensory feed from ears and cerebellum

however
language oriented content will also be found elsewhere, and if the temporal lobe is damaged,
new language ability will form distributed in other parts of the cortex.

the frontal cortex is not fed directly by any single sensory feed, so all the activity there is abstracted from activity elsewhere,
you could call it the meta brain, lots of good philosophy art and math gets done here - but is linked through out the cortex, and can be supported by less generalized areas as well if these are damaged.

the pre-frontal cortex - more remote yet, is like the meta meta brain, or over brain and we can assume it to be the seat of morality - it seems very quiet in psychopathic types, and children.
I believe that the moral functions can also be relocated with training as well if it is damaged.

while any part of cortex can be used to handle any secondary processing (after signals have arrived), the more forward territory is less fixed to the body/world.

as for amygdala and feeling.
it is more a very low resolution organ, it reports localized and generalized sensations as nominal (uninteresting) moderate (pleasant feeling) and intense (painful feeling) and helps motivate fight or flight - this is below the level of consciousness, consciousness has to clean up the mess that the amygdala leaves behind.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9308262 - 11/24/08 11:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

ok, so.. what are you intuitions about my theory of consciousness occuring in the signal/exchange/focus part of the brain, and the complexity of our consciousness simply owing to the complexity of the cortex-tools available to it?


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9308876 - 11/25/08 02:58 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

well, I don't think it has much substance to it.
the reverberance that occurs in the cortex from live signal patterns and recalled signal patterns carries the complexity of consciousness itself, the rest is support. important support.
Body, nutrition, wiring, respiration etc.
these are important essential and life sustaining, but no part among the other structures has the reverberance of consciousness except the cortex.
and no part supports the functions of associative memory and recall though for this we need thalamus and basal ganglia (for feedback) as well as the chiasma (for duplication and concurrency).

that is not to say that significant additional resonance is not also provided by mucous membranes over which low voltage interference can play easily, it just does not tie back to source very well.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9308995 - 11/25/08 05:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The model that excludes the amygdale in any TOM is flawed.  The amygdala is necessary for triggering rapid and relatively automatic somatic responses to reward and punishment (primary induction);  encoded sensory cues. Subsequent learning.
    As for trying to define consciousness as higher consciousness is just presumptuous. We could also give Faith a chemical value to connect the God’s consciousness.  . . bypassing all subconciousness () in the human cortex… Take out the white matter and the small vessel; motor learning… higher man’s consciousness.  Relationships between ERS/ERD effects and the BOLD response for a language fluency task.


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'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Recondicom]
    #9309123 - 11/25/08 06:35 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

well you can also say that without the body there would be no consciousness, and you would be right to a significant degree.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9309359 - 11/25/08 08:16 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

but the point i am trying to make is that none of those associative netoworks are actually involved in consciousness. its not like you consciously work through all the calculations that your mind makes.. you just think, and thoughts appear. and then more thoughts appear.
memory? associative memory? none of this is the action of consciousness - consciousness just receives the result


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9309379 - 11/25/08 08:24 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

are you imagining that consciousness is equivalent to a motive or willed ego?
that is just an illusion of the sequence of mind moments.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9309419 - 11/25/08 08:36 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

In the same way that the retina responds to light, there are multiaxxoned neurons within the cerebral cortex that respond to electric fields such as those that occur due to interference of waves spreading through the dendritic field of the cortex. (from sensory excitation and memory recall)
This provides the experience of sensation, association and enables the fixation of memory.
it is a lot like vision.
Consciousness is not separate from memory formation, and is not detatchable from associative mentation.
The stage upon which all of this happens is definitely the cortex.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9309440 - 11/25/08 08:43 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
are you imagining that consciousness is equivalent to a motive or willed ego?
that is just an illusion of the sequence of mind moments.


:thumbup:


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ā€œStrengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.ā€


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Lion]
    #9311139 - 11/25/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i dont think consciousness is equivelant to motive or willed ego, but I do think that it involves that place in the mind where 'will' gets processed. consciousness is this 'illusion' of the sequence of mind moments but it exists between all the thoughts, it exists between focus, memory, will, sensation, etc. of these things, i think only will is a conscious process... even if it is illusory.

i dont think consciousness involves memory formation, which happens after consciousness, imo.

i wish you would concede your words more as a theory than fact. these are like the biggest questions humanity has to answer at the moment.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9311168 - 11/25/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think of consciousness as experiencing.  If you are conscious, you are having an experience.  To be conscious is to be subjectively experiencing and aware of the world around you.

How does memory fit into this?  I believe that to have an over-arching idea of a self or "I" then your moment-to-moment experience has to be tied together via memory in order to experience oneself as a collections of experiences over time.

As we go down the chain of being from human, to animal, to plant, etc. the long-term sense of "I" disappears, although even at the most basic level, there are flashes of experience, although without memory storage a sense of self cannot emerge.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #9311188 - 11/25/08 02:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

mm and what is experience other than access to a realm of sensations?
i would say that memory (short and long term) feeds into our experience and forms after it, but does not occur IN conscious realm.

as we think, it seems like we have a stream of thoughts because each moment is fed with information about the last few thoughts and we keep existing in a state where the content of our current thought is a mesh of now+justbefore


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9311443 - 11/25/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
mm and what is experience other than access to a realm of sensations?
i would say that memory (short and long term) feeds into our experience and forms after it, but does not occur IN conscious realm.

as we think, it seems like we have a stream of thoughts because each moment is fed with information about the last few thoughts and we keep existing in a state where the content of our current thought is a mesh of now+justbefore




sensations include mind-sphere activity, as well as eye-sphere, ear-sphere etc.
this may be a big shift in understanding for you.
mind sphere activity includes memory recall/thought components (associative events) as well as fresh sensory events.
everything mixes into gestalt experience where the signals occur.

so our stream of consciousness includes current activity as well as fading activity, which together ensures that memory can form with sequence, it also provides a sense of time passing.

the last few thoughts are fading out of existence.
(you could interpret fading of ideation and experienceing as information about the last few thoughts being fed into the stream, but that is an extra elaboration.)
the simpler approach is usually more suitable.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9311924 - 11/25/08 04:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I have to agree with the intial post RGV
-I have taken actions which were built upon
a multitude of recalled memories;
Not a soul would know what deep they went.
Certainly concious, although more like
a penumbra.

-It's like, if your mind is a geo-desic
dome, subconcious is what color you
paint your interior. Nobody will
know it's a hot-pink, but you do.
Can thoughts come out of the closet?

I think subconcious is low-tech; hard to
pinpoint why
I visualize though, a psychatrist trying
to figure out what the patient's wardrobe
at home consists of, but he doesn't realize
he only has one pair of clothes.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #9312283 - 11/25/08 05:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

interesting way to articulate how we make things more complex than they are


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9313008 - 11/25/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
i think this is the problem with the idea of sub conscious.
sub conscious is not another stream of consciousness running below radar.
it is just the conditioned aspect of the mind, potential for thought, and reactions.




This is why I have a problem with the notion of people throwing around the idea that "everyone has death anxiety"....
I have witnessed people have real anxiety and a conscious fear of death when posed the topic for conversation....
The subconscious reactionary fight or flight mechanism is different in perceived meaning than "death anxiety"....


>^;;^<


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9313808 - 11/25/08 09:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
mm and what is experience other than access to a realm of sensations?
i would say that memory (short and long term) feeds into our experience and forms after it, but does not occur IN conscious realm.

as we think, it seems like we have a stream of thoughts because each moment is fed with information about the last few thoughts and we keep existing in a state where the content of our current thought is a mesh of now+justbefore




sensations include mind-sphere activity, as well as eye-sphere, ear-sphere etc.
this may be a big shift in understanding for you.
mind sphere activity includes memory recall/thought components (associative events) as well as fresh sensory events.
everything mixes into gestalt experience where the signals occur.

so our stream of consciousness includes current activity as well as fading activity, which together ensures that memory can form with sequence, it also provides a sense of time passing.

the last few thoughts are fading out of existence.
(you could interpret fading of ideation and experienceing as information about the last few thoughts being fed into the stream, but that is an extra elaboration.)
the simpler approach is usually more suitable.




no need to get condascending mate.
nothing I said contradicted the idea that we have a 'mind-sphere'. Visual cortex interprets data from the eyes and turns it into a world of visible objects. this world is then presented to functions of consciousness. auditory cortex interprets data from ears and turns it into seperate sounds, or 'sound producing objects'. the same goes for touch. these cortexes also work together in order to collaborate and correspond the 'objects' that they present to consciousness.
and then there is another cortex which gets its data from all the other cortex (instead of from a sensory source), and produces 'mind objects' and presents these to consciousness. this occurs in the frontal lobes.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #9315157 - 11/26/08 02:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
i think this is the problem with the idea of sub conscious.
sub conscious is not another stream of consciousness running below radar.
it is just the conditioned aspect of the mind, potential for thought, and reactions.




This is why I have a problem with the notion of people throwing around the idea that "everyone has death anxiety"....
I have witnessed people have real anxiety and a conscious fear of death when posed the topic for conversation....
The subconscious reactionary fight or flight mechanism is different in perceived meaning than "death anxiety"....


>^;;^<



like mere habits of speech
useful in  few contexts,
with relative meaning, but not accurate or meaningful in other contexts.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9315198 - 11/26/08 03:15 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
....
Visual cortex interprets data from the eyes and turns it into a world of visible objects. this world is then presented to functions of consciousness. auditory cortex interprets data from ears and turns it into seperate sounds, or 'sound producing objects'. the same goes for touch. these cortexes also work together in order to collaborate and correspond the 'objects' that they present to consciousness.
and then there is another cortex which gets its data from all the other cortex (instead of from a sensory source), and produces 'mind objects' and presents these to consciousness. this occurs in the frontal lobes.





there is an error in using the word "interprets" this way
(sure it is used in text books and magazines)

visual cortex receives visual input.......
(you can see the optic nerve jamming into the locale)
audio cortex receives audio input......
local processing or elaboration is slight, simple - non interpretive.
interpretation is all associative, and that is the same process throughout the cortex.

mind objects related to vision also occur primarily in the visual cortex,
mental audio objects occur in audio cortex.
these regions are not just input, but also house primary recall of the same events that originally occurred.

when you use the term "interprets" you surmise an additional function that does not exist there and probably supposes the need for a process and for an organ or tissue that does not exist anywhere (and maybe also an ego that does not exist as separate from the associative process which occurs throughout the cortex).

this is not condescending, it is explanatory - eeg's and nmr's show recalled visual events happenning in the visual cortex. the sites' specialities relate to the real world inputs.
the various specialty regions' activities include
1. receive pattern,
2. sustain pattern into consciousness (allow to fade),
3. fix patterns into memory, and
4. recall memory pattern associatively (when pattern simmilarities arise).

my main contention is that 2 & 3 are one process,
that the process occurs throughout the brain as a unified system for handling patterns,
and that there is no need to propose a subconscious at all to represent the aggregate of conditioning (stored patterns and potential associations)


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9315336 - 11/26/08 05:08 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i call the process 'interpretation' because it gets [raw data] and outputs [abstracted information]. this is the role of the cortex, and is not a conscious process. the actual way this occurs in the brain could be anything... but the fact that it happens means that there are processes occuring that are not corresponding with particular changes in consciousness at the time, and thus there is a 'subconscious' element of the mind.



i call you condascending because you talk as if you know the answer to this question and suggest that, because I do not have the same opinion to you, Im having trouble understanding the concept/s.

cmon, what neuroscience have you done that makes you feel so confident? that makes you assume im a n00b when it comes to considering this issue?


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9315464 - 11/26/08 06:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

the it we are talking about could be the occipital lobe (vision) - let us say. (in keeping with the discussion)
at any single moment it accepts in visual signal pattern as an arrangement of neural signals to the cortex in a series of pulses (from the optic neural pathway) bright red here, yellow gray there...

at that point the cortex (which is largely composed by a dendritic mass) becomes a resonant 2-dimensional conductive medium. (which can be detected by eeg.)
the point sources of each signal spread like rings on a pond's surface in the rain.

interference takes place.

the cortex also has multiaxoned sensors which pick up peaks of interference in the 2-d surface and form sub threashold synapses with cells that are involved in the current signal pulses, but not with other (quiet) cells.

that forms the memory pattern. memory of moments becomes fixed that way.

you could say that the interference pattern is the abstraction, and you would be right as it does generate the holographic abstraction of the incoming signal pattern. (and we also do know that memory is stored holographically throughout the cortex).

later when a simmilar holographic event occurs, i.e. similar interference peaks are sensed, the same multiaxonned sensors will fire and re-activate cells that were once linked together in a moment sometime in the past.

this is the essence of associative memory.

(repetition helps strengthen the sub threashold synapses (which appear as small scars or knobs on cortical neuron bodies - with these, the cell bodies grow)

the output from the visual cortex (occipital lobe) is patterns that go to other sections of the cortex where image fragments, and scene characteristics are mixed with other aspects of the gestalt experience of consciousness.
the output of visual cortex is not labelled objects or abstract thought as you might tend to imagine, but much more kaleidoscopic.

the concurrency of electrical patterns provides the conscious experience of the moment.

associative memory (recall) is part of the concurrent conscious experience, and is not part of a different structure or concept.

articulation, speech, conversation, ratiocination even "abstract thought" are all products of associative memory. some people consider that they are evidence of consciousness, but they are only evidence of the kind of chatter the person is immersed in by habit.

even a bruisable ego is part of associative memory - part of the conditioned fabric of mind.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9315945 - 11/26/08 10:00 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Consciousness…A point; a line; a plane; a volume in a four dimensional structure.  At what time sensory becomes thought? I question whether you can separate the process in one area from the other not in focus. As for the nature of the volume I content myself with thinking about whether  Kundalini or any of the sexual mythologies start anywhere in the brain, I entertain myself with the possibility of being outside the body as well. As to any individuation… I give you that. Transformation is our avatar’s detail specialty.


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  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9315952 - 11/26/08 10:01 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the output from the visual cortex (occipital lobe) is patterns that go to other sections of the cortex where image fragments, and scene characteristics are mixed with other aspects of the gestalt experience of consciousness.
the output of visual cortex is not labelled objects or abstract thought as you might tend to imagine, but much more kaleidoscopic.




It's a bit more complicated than this.  Most outputs of the visual cortex are sent to area V2 of the extrastriate cortex (visual association as opposed to purely sensory).  The sensory stream is then split up into two streams: the dorsal and the ventral stream, where the former is involved in the perception of spatial forms (where the object is and whether it is moving) while the latter is involved in the perception of form (what the object is and what its color is).  Recognition and actual perception of form all take place on the endpath of the ventral stream: the inferior temporal cortex, rather than being spread out in a kaleidoscopic fashion throughout the cortex like you seem to imply.

What are you referring to when you talk of scars on the cortical neural bodies?  Learning of anything (even recognition of faces) takes place via LTP that produces more post-synaptic AMPA-receptors and perforated synapses (disregarding presynaptic changes that involve the synthesis of nitric oxide); there is no growing of cell bodies or scarring going on.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Recondicom]
    #9315984 - 11/26/08 10:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

kundalini practice, like most other concentration meditations involves sustained attention - this generates a standing wave pattern.
the standing wave pattern holds a standing interference pattern which evokes geometric and other phenomena.
if you shift off your point of focus and attend the resulting phenomena (geometry or whatever) then the concentration is broken and the interference construct falls apart.

otherwise it is all done in a plane (2-d) but with crosover from multiple senses and with crossover
from recalled memory and crossover from persistence of recent moments, the experience is multi dimensional.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: deCypher]
    #9316132 - 11/26/08 10:57 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the output from the visual cortex (occipital lobe) is patterns that go to other sections of the cortex where image fragments, and scene characteristics are mixed with other aspects of the gestalt experience of consciousness.
the output of visual cortex is not labelled objects or abstract thought as you might tend to imagine, but much more kaleidoscopic.




It's a bit more complicated than this.  Most outputs of the visual cortex are sent to area V2 of the extrastriate cortex (visual association as opposed to purely sensory).  The sensory stream is then split up into two streams: the dorsal and the ventral stream, where the former is involved in the perception of spatial forms (where the object is and whether it is moving) while the latter is involved in the perception of form (what the object is and what its color is).  Recognition and actual perception of form all take place on the endpath of the ventral stream: the inferior temporal cortex, rather than being spread out in a kaleidoscopic fashion throughout the cortex like you seem to imply.

What are you referring to when you talk of scars on the cortical neural bodies?  Learning of anything (even recognition of faces) takes place via LTP that produces more post-synaptic AMPA-receptors and perforated synapses (disregarding presynaptic changes that involve the synthesis of nitric oxide); there is no growing of cell bodies or scarring going on.




I think that the proces you are highlighting in the temporal lobes with respect to ventral pathway from vision is associative event memory and event memory with word matching.

"perception" is one of the inaccurate psycho neurological terms that I am unhappy with.

the dorsal stream is valuable for correlation in space with proprioception.

a kaleidoscopic distribution does occur:
these two pathways are merely the first shunts for copying visual pattern, and visual fragments;
once the pattern has been propagated this way the less map-able chiasma are probalby involved distributing signal events and interference peaks to other areas of the cortex.

recognition and perception are a lot more complex than just shunting a signal accross from one zone to another.

associative routines with time base (cerebellum circuits) as well as conditioned detection edge and color combinations will involve a lot more than just zone transfer of the pattern.

as for synapse formation, and neuron growth, I think you may want to go back to the literature, while losing about 9000 neurons per day in the brain, new connections are made. supposedly the dying neurons have low activity, and yield space to connection growth of active ones.

but thanks for your accurate nomenclature,
accuracy of what is known is important.

from your point of view
do you have a good idea of how associative memory is formed, and what the terms perception and consciousness may mean in the context of neurology.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9316336 - 11/26/08 11:42 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

associative memory - what makes you think this is part of consciousness, redgreenvines?


note:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:

any "subconscious" thought, that is real, is actually conscious, just not revealed.

this would suggest that I am in disagreement about what subconscious means to most people.





actually, since you can consider things to be in the 'conscious' mind, without being 'revealed', perhaps you are in disagreement about what consciousness means to most people


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9316514 - 11/26/08 12:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

when you remember something
it is played out on the stage of your awareness
anything on this mind stage is in consciousness

for me, conscious experience is more than what I can articulate (in words) and recognize (form additional associations about), ergo it includes:

unrecognized & recognized sensory fragments
unrecognized & recognized memory fragments
clear images
subtle impulses, etc.

conscious experience  is fleeting and does not all congeal into parcels that are recognizeable, but i am aware of the existence of much more than I can articulate,
many things are left remotely familiar, and not bothered with.

that which is happenning on my mind stage is consciousness to me.
some people have reduced consciousness to words and discount everything else unless confirmed by another person; and this relates to consensus reality, which is a subset of consciousness.

i am really not sure what all people think, in this area but I am pretty sure that all people think associatively. swinging like monkeys from recognition to recognition.

this does not mean that people are aware of all potential associations, just the associations that are triggered.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #9316677 - 11/26/08 12:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Here is a component of anxiety: (l allele v/s  s allele)  (Hariri and Weinberger 2003a) (Hariri 2005). It is DNA. Some have it and…


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9316695 - 11/26/08 12:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
recognition and perception are a lot more complex than just shunting a signal accross from one zone to another.




This, I agree with.  But at the end of whatever stream coming out from the visual cortex, at some point a collection of neurons has to be responsible for the actual perception of a visual signal.

Quote:


as for synapse formation, and neuron growth, I think you may want to go back to the literature, while losing about 9000 neurons per day in the brain, new connections are made. supposedly the dying neurons have low activity, and yield space to connection growth of active ones.




Traditional associative learning takes place through Hebb's rule and long-term potentiation that thereby changes the synaptic weights of pre-existing neurons.  The growth of new synapses and connections does take place, but this is much rarer and any learning of the type that you are talking about primarily takes place through the alteration of already existing synaptic weights.

Quote:


from your point of view
do you have a good idea of how associative memory is formed, and what the terms perception and consciousness may mean in the context of neurology.




Associative memory that link two stimuli together is formed by associative long-term potentiation; concurrent stimulation of weak and strong synapses to a given neuron strengthens the weak ones.  Perception and consciousness are much tricker--I'm inclined to agree that consciousness as we experience is simply the illusion of consistency garnered together by a quick succession of mind-moments (similar to how still frames comprise a fluidly moving movie).  The perception of a particular sensory stimulus must be identical to the activity of various neurons in the brain; if we stimulate an area of the cortex we will see a particular color, for instance.  I'd speculate that future advancements in neuroscience will lead to the point where complex and systematic stimulation of the frontal cortex will lead to thinking a particular thought, IMO.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: deCypher]
    #9317082 - 11/26/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
…

This, I agree with.  But at the end of whatever stream coming out from the visual cortex, at some point a collection of neurons has to be responsible for the actual perception of a visual signal.






I agree with most of what you have said, but you are again deferring to Perception
(do you mean something different from associative recognition, i.e. the matching of an
intrinsic relationship between points – why use a separate word from association?)
as an event delegated to a specific group of neurons.

if it is association of a general type (99.9% certain of that) then it needs to be a general process distributed throughout the cerebral structures, not a specific locus for each recognized thing... Space would simply run out.

The matching is always relative to what has been experienced before, and that is the ā€œmemory traceā€ of an experience which is known to be distributed holographically throughout the cortex.

Quote:

deCypher said:

Traditional associative learning takes place through Hebb's rule and long-term potentiation that thereby changes the synaptic weights of pre-existing neurons.  The growth of new synapses and connections does take place, but this is much rarer and any learning of the type that you are talking about primarily takes place through the alteration of already existing synaptic weights.
.




In this you may be more accurate in current neurological terminology. In my opinion, the repetition is essential to intensify a memory trace and make it more likely to unfold than another. (agree) however to set the memory trace up is always the same process, and it will be akin to scarring or minor growth upon existing connections.

Granted – more hard research is required to establish exactly how and where each lttle change happens but it is happening at thousands of loci per second, and it generally relates to interlinking neurons that are excited by pulse trains in the moment..

both memory fixation and recall have to have analogous keys, which is why we have to look at interference.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9317156 - 11/26/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Association and perception are too entirely different things, IMO.

One can perceive a sensory stimulus (a sound, sight, smell, taste, or touch) without associating it to related ideas.  This is almost always done after the perception, granted, but perception is simply the experience of the stimulus without any associated claptrap (no pun intended).

Association of the type you're referring to is correlated to the mapping of the holographic, intermeshing network throughout the cortex, sure, but the act of perception is the act of the neural firing itself.  Connections determine associations; but the nodes that provides the stops and the figurative manpower between connections determine perception.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: deCypher]
    #9317495 - 11/26/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

then is there a difference between sensing something and percieving it.
someplace between sensing and associating I find an extra unwarranted step.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9317509 - 11/26/08 03:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The way you're using it, I'd say sensing is perceiving.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: deCypher]
    #9317646 - 11/26/08 03:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I always use sensing because it is primary - many people use perceiving to denote "perceived as",
which really confuses it with association which is that other important generalized process.

it would be great if we could just use sense instead of perceive to refer to the barest of bare inputs to consciousness.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9317654 - 11/26/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Words, words, mere words, no matter from the heart.

Ain't no substitute for experience.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9317866 - 11/26/08 04:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
....
Visual cortex interprets data from the eyes and turns it into a world of visible objects. this world is then presented to functions of consciousness. auditory cortex interprets data from ears and turns it into seperate sounds, or 'sound producing objects'. the same goes for touch. these cortexes also work together in order to collaborate and correspond the 'objects' that they present to consciousness.
and then there is another cortex which gets its data from all the other cortex (instead of from a sensory source), and produces 'mind objects' and presents these to consciousness. this occurs in the frontal lobes.






there is an error in using the word "interprets" this way
(sure it is used in text books and magazines)

visual cortex receives visual input.......
(you can see the optic nerve jamming into the locale)
audio cortex receives audio input......
local processing or elaboration is slight, simple - non interpretive.
interpretation is all associative, and that is the same process throughout the cortex.

mind objects related to vision also occur primarily in the visual cortex,
mental audio objects occur in audio cortex.
these regions are not just input, but also house primary recall of the same events that originally occurred.

when you use the term "interprets" you surmise an additional function that does not exist there and probably supposes the need for a process and for an organ or tissue that does not exist anywhere (and maybe also an ego that does not exist as separate from the associative process which occurs throughout the cortex).

this is not condescending, it is explanatory - eeg's and nmr's show recalled visual events happenning in the visual cortex. the sites' specialities relate to the real world inputs.
the various specialty regions' activities include
1. receive pattern,
2. sustain pattern into consciousness (allow to fade),
3. fix patterns into memory, and
4. recall memory pattern associatively (when pattern simmilarities arise).

my main contention is that 2 & 3 are one process,
that the process occurs throughout the brain as a unified system for handling patterns,
and that there is no need to propose a subconscious at all to represent the aggregate of conditioning (stored patterns and potential associations)




Would it be nuts to say that is exactly how I see
the world?
In 3rd grade, I had a lesson of patterns,
and I remember asking a teacher where are patterns,
and she said everywhere.
Thusly, I associated patterns with everything.
Saw it in music class, art, history, recess.
So you get bored, because you are aware
of so many patterns (yawn)
and create your own.
Brindle kickball with dodgeball or something.

Still in 3rd grade my dad told me about
Chain Reactions. I understood it but my mom
thought the concept was too advanced to bring to class. I combined the concept of mentational and physical patterns with chain reaction theory.
Assocative thought covers that better, however
it seems some ideas are formed at once like a
"fractal" comprised of many associations with near instantaneous formation; others
seem to build more slowly.

too crazy?


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #9319375 - 11/26/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

grade three huh!
that is quite a head start.
awareness of shifting pattern for all the sense-spheres is an excellent disposition in my opinion.


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Recondicom]
    #9319490 - 11/26/08 09:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Recondicom said:
Here is a component of anxiety: (l allele v/s  s allele)  (Hariri and Weinberger 2003a) (Hariri 2005). It is DNA. Some have it and…




....and some don't.....(?)

I couldn't have said it better myself if I had actually understood what you just said....  :shiftyeyes:


>^;;^<


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #9321345 - 11/27/08 09:22 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

PhanTomCat  is what? you said fright or fight.


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'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9321428 - 11/27/08 09:52 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I actually like the idea of the plane and the multi-dimensional experience.  I want to think of the Z plane as the sensory experience and the multi-dimensional experience as the n-dimensional of an ongoing quantum model as a thought model.  I’m still ā€˜thinking’ about reverberation and scarring.  I think of it as being asked if I am a famous pianist, walking in a room full of people and walking out the other end;  lonely hallway; alone again.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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