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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9315952 - 11/26/08 10:01 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the output from the visual cortex (occipital lobe) is patterns that go to other sections of the cortex where image fragments, and scene characteristics are mixed with other aspects of the gestalt experience of consciousness.
the output of visual cortex is not labelled objects or abstract thought as you might tend to imagine, but much more kaleidoscopic.




It's a bit more complicated than this.  Most outputs of the visual cortex are sent to area V2 of the extrastriate cortex (visual association as opposed to purely sensory).  The sensory stream is then split up into two streams: the dorsal and the ventral stream, where the former is involved in the perception of spatial forms (where the object is and whether it is moving) while the latter is involved in the perception of form (what the object is and what its color is).  Recognition and actual perception of form all take place on the endpath of the ventral stream: the inferior temporal cortex, rather than being spread out in a kaleidoscopic fashion throughout the cortex like you seem to imply.

What are you referring to when you talk of scars on the cortical neural bodies?  Learning of anything (even recognition of faces) takes place via LTP that produces more post-synaptic AMPA-receptors and perforated synapses (disregarding presynaptic changes that involve the synthesis of nitric oxide); there is no growing of cell bodies or scarring going on.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Recondicom]
    #9315984 - 11/26/08 10:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

kundalini practice, like most other concentration meditations involves sustained attention - this generates a standing wave pattern.
the standing wave pattern holds a standing interference pattern which evokes geometric and other phenomena.
if you shift off your point of focus and attend the resulting phenomena (geometry or whatever) then the concentration is broken and the interference construct falls apart.

otherwise it is all done in a plane (2-d) but with crosover from multiple senses and with crossover
from recalled memory and crossover from persistence of recent moments, the experience is multi dimensional.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: deCypher]
    #9316132 - 11/26/08 10:57 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the output from the visual cortex (occipital lobe) is patterns that go to other sections of the cortex where image fragments, and scene characteristics are mixed with other aspects of the gestalt experience of consciousness.
the output of visual cortex is not labelled objects or abstract thought as you might tend to imagine, but much more kaleidoscopic.




It's a bit more complicated than this.  Most outputs of the visual cortex are sent to area V2 of the extrastriate cortex (visual association as opposed to purely sensory).  The sensory stream is then split up into two streams: the dorsal and the ventral stream, where the former is involved in the perception of spatial forms (where the object is and whether it is moving) while the latter is involved in the perception of form (what the object is and what its color is).  Recognition and actual perception of form all take place on the endpath of the ventral stream: the inferior temporal cortex, rather than being spread out in a kaleidoscopic fashion throughout the cortex like you seem to imply.

What are you referring to when you talk of scars on the cortical neural bodies?  Learning of anything (even recognition of faces) takes place via LTP that produces more post-synaptic AMPA-receptors and perforated synapses (disregarding presynaptic changes that involve the synthesis of nitric oxide); there is no growing of cell bodies or scarring going on.




I think that the proces you are highlighting in the temporal lobes with respect to ventral pathway from vision is associative event memory and event memory with word matching.

"perception" is one of the inaccurate psycho neurological terms that I am unhappy with.

the dorsal stream is valuable for correlation in space with proprioception.

a kaleidoscopic distribution does occur:
these two pathways are merely the first shunts for copying visual pattern, and visual fragments;
once the pattern has been propagated this way the less map-able chiasma are probalby involved distributing signal events and interference peaks to other areas of the cortex.

recognition and perception are a lot more complex than just shunting a signal accross from one zone to another.

associative routines with time base (cerebellum circuits) as well as conditioned detection edge and color combinations will involve a lot more than just zone transfer of the pattern.

as for synapse formation, and neuron growth, I think you may want to go back to the literature, while losing about 9000 neurons per day in the brain, new connections are made. supposedly the dying neurons have low activity, and yield space to connection growth of active ones.

but thanks for your accurate nomenclature,
accuracy of what is known is important.

from your point of view
do you have a good idea of how associative memory is formed, and what the terms perception and consciousness may mean in the context of neurology.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9316336 - 11/26/08 11:42 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

associative memory - what makes you think this is part of consciousness, redgreenvines?


note:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:

any "subconscious" thought, that is real, is actually conscious, just not revealed.

this would suggest that I am in disagreement about what subconscious means to most people.





actually, since you can consider things to be in the 'conscious' mind, without being 'revealed', perhaps you are in disagreement about what consciousness means to most people


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9316514 - 11/26/08 12:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

when you remember something
it is played out on the stage of your awareness
anything on this mind stage is in consciousness

for me, conscious experience is more than what I can articulate (in words) and recognize (form additional associations about), ergo it includes:

unrecognized & recognized sensory fragments
unrecognized & recognized memory fragments
clear images
subtle impulses, etc.

conscious experience  is fleeting and does not all congeal into parcels that are recognizeable, but i am aware of the existence of much more than I can articulate,
many things are left remotely familiar, and not bothered with.

that which is happenning on my mind stage is consciousness to me.
some people have reduced consciousness to words and discount everything else unless confirmed by another person; and this relates to consensus reality, which is a subset of consciousness.

i am really not sure what all people think, in this area but I am pretty sure that all people think associatively. swinging like monkeys from recognition to recognition.

this does not mean that people are aware of all potential associations, just the associations that are triggered.


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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #9316677 - 11/26/08 12:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Here is a component of anxiety: (l allele v/s  s allele)  (Hariri and Weinberger 2003a) (Hariri 2005). It is DNA. Some have it and…


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9316695 - 11/26/08 12:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
recognition and perception are a lot more complex than just shunting a signal accross from one zone to another.




This, I agree with.  But at the end of whatever stream coming out from the visual cortex, at some point a collection of neurons has to be responsible for the actual perception of a visual signal.

Quote:


as for synapse formation, and neuron growth, I think you may want to go back to the literature, while losing about 9000 neurons per day in the brain, new connections are made. supposedly the dying neurons have low activity, and yield space to connection growth of active ones.




Traditional associative learning takes place through Hebb's rule and long-term potentiation that thereby changes the synaptic weights of pre-existing neurons.  The growth of new synapses and connections does take place, but this is much rarer and any learning of the type that you are talking about primarily takes place through the alteration of already existing synaptic weights.

Quote:


from your point of view
do you have a good idea of how associative memory is formed, and what the terms perception and consciousness may mean in the context of neurology.




Associative memory that link two stimuli together is formed by associative long-term potentiation; concurrent stimulation of weak and strong synapses to a given neuron strengthens the weak ones.  Perception and consciousness are much tricker--I'm inclined to agree that consciousness as we experience is simply the illusion of consistency garnered together by a quick succession of mind-moments (similar to how still frames comprise a fluidly moving movie).  The perception of a particular sensory stimulus must be identical to the activity of various neurons in the brain; if we stimulate an area of the cortex we will see a particular color, for instance.  I'd speculate that future advancements in neuroscience will lead to the point where complex and systematic stimulation of the frontal cortex will lead to thinking a particular thought, IMO.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: deCypher]
    #9317082 - 11/26/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:


This, I agree with.  But at the end of whatever stream coming out from the visual cortex, at some point a collection of neurons has to be responsible for the actual perception of a visual signal.






I agree with most of what you have said, but you are again deferring to Perception
(do you mean something different from associative recognition, i.e. the matching of an
intrinsic relationship between points – why use a separate word from association?)
as an event delegated to a specific group of neurons.

if it is association of a general type (99.9% certain of that) then it needs to be a general process distributed throughout the cerebral structures, not a specific locus for each recognized thing... Space would simply run out.

The matching is always relative to what has been experienced before, and that is the “memory trace” of an experience which is known to be distributed holographically throughout the cortex.

Quote:

deCypher said:

Traditional associative learning takes place through Hebb's rule and long-term potentiation that thereby changes the synaptic weights of pre-existing neurons.  The growth of new synapses and connections does take place, but this is much rarer and any learning of the type that you are talking about primarily takes place through the alteration of already existing synaptic weights.
.




In this you may be more accurate in current neurological terminology. In my opinion, the repetition is essential to intensify a memory trace and make it more likely to unfold than another. (agree) however to set the memory trace up is always the same process, and it will be akin to scarring or minor growth upon existing connections.

Granted – more hard research is required to establish exactly how and where each lttle change happens but it is happening at thousands of loci per second, and it generally relates to interlinking neurons that are excited by pulse trains in the moment..

both memory fixation and recall have to have analogous keys, which is why we have to look at interference.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9317156 - 11/26/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Association and perception are too entirely different things, IMO.

One can perceive a sensory stimulus (a sound, sight, smell, taste, or touch) without associating it to related ideas.  This is almost always done after the perception, granted, but perception is simply the experience of the stimulus without any associated claptrap (no pun intended).

Association of the type you're referring to is correlated to the mapping of the holographic, intermeshing network throughout the cortex, sure, but the act of perception is the act of the neural firing itself.  Connections determine associations; but the nodes that provides the stops and the figurative manpower between connections determine perception.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: deCypher]
    #9317495 - 11/26/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

then is there a difference between sensing something and percieving it.
someplace between sensing and associating I find an extra unwarranted step.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9317509 - 11/26/08 03:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The way you're using it, I'd say sensing is perceiving.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: deCypher]
    #9317646 - 11/26/08 03:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I always use sensing because it is primary - many people use perceiving to denote "perceived as",
which really confuses it with association which is that other important generalized process.

it would be great if we could just use sense instead of perceive to refer to the barest of bare inputs to consciousness.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9317654 - 11/26/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Words, words, mere words, no matter from the heart.

Ain't no substitute for experience.


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InvisibleApollyphelion
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9317866 - 11/26/08 04:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
....
Visual cortex interprets data from the eyes and turns it into a world of visible objects. this world is then presented to functions of consciousness. auditory cortex interprets data from ears and turns it into seperate sounds, or 'sound producing objects'. the same goes for touch. these cortexes also work together in order to collaborate and correspond the 'objects' that they present to consciousness.
and then there is another cortex which gets its data from all the other cortex (instead of from a sensory source), and produces 'mind objects' and presents these to consciousness. this occurs in the frontal lobes.






there is an error in using the word "interprets" this way
(sure it is used in text books and magazines)

visual cortex receives visual input.......
(you can see the optic nerve jamming into the locale)
audio cortex receives audio input......
local processing or elaboration is slight, simple - non interpretive.
interpretation is all associative, and that is the same process throughout the cortex.

mind objects related to vision also occur primarily in the visual cortex,
mental audio objects occur in audio cortex.
these regions are not just input, but also house primary recall of the same events that originally occurred.

when you use the term "interprets" you surmise an additional function that does not exist there and probably supposes the need for a process and for an organ or tissue that does not exist anywhere (and maybe also an ego that does not exist as separate from the associative process which occurs throughout the cortex).

this is not condescending, it is explanatory - eeg's and nmr's show recalled visual events happenning in the visual cortex. the sites' specialities relate to the real world inputs.
the various specialty regions' activities include
1. receive pattern,
2. sustain pattern into consciousness (allow to fade),
3. fix patterns into memory, and
4. recall memory pattern associatively (when pattern simmilarities arise).

my main contention is that 2 & 3 are one process,
that the process occurs throughout the brain as a unified system for handling patterns,
and that there is no need to propose a subconscious at all to represent the aggregate of conditioning (stored patterns and potential associations)




Would it be nuts to say that is exactly how I see
the world?
In 3rd grade, I had a lesson of patterns,
and I remember asking a teacher where are patterns,
and she said everywhere.
Thusly, I associated patterns with everything.
Saw it in music class, art, history, recess.
So you get bored, because you are aware
of so many patterns (yawn)
and create your own.
Brindle kickball with dodgeball or something.

Still in 3rd grade my dad told me about
Chain Reactions. I understood it but my mom
thought the concept was too advanced to bring to class. I combined the concept of mentational and physical patterns with chain reaction theory.
Assocative thought covers that better, however
it seems some ideas are formed at once like a
"fractal" comprised of many associations with near instantaneous formation; others
seem to build more slowly.

too crazy?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #9319375 - 11/26/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

grade three huh!
that is quite a head start.
awareness of shifting pattern for all the sense-spheres is an excellent disposition in my opinion.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Recondicom]
    #9319490 - 11/26/08 09:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Recondicom said:
Here is a component of anxiety: (l allele v/s  s allele)  (Hariri and Weinberger 2003a) (Hariri 2005). It is DNA. Some have it and…




....and some don't.....(?)

I couldn't have said it better myself if I had actually understood what you just said....  :shiftyeyes:


>^;;^<


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>^;;^<


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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #9321345 - 11/27/08 09:22 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

PhanTomCat  is what? you said fright or fight.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9321428 - 11/27/08 09:52 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I actually like the idea of the plane and the multi-dimensional experience.  I want to think of the Z plane as the sensory experience and the multi-dimensional experience as the n-dimensional of an ongoing quantum model as a thought model.  I’m still ‘thinking’ about reverberation and scarring.  I think of it as being asked if I am a famous pianist, walking in a room full of people and walking out the other end;  lonely hallway; alone again.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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