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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9308876 - 11/25/08 02:58 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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well, I don't think it has much substance to it. the reverberance that occurs in the cortex from live signal patterns and recalled signal patterns carries the complexity of consciousness itself, the rest is support. important support. Body, nutrition, wiring, respiration etc. these are important essential and life sustaining, but no part among the other structures has the reverberance of consciousness except the cortex. and no part supports the functions of associative memory and recall though for this we need thalamus and basal ganglia (for feedback) as well as the chiasma (for duplication and concurrency). that is not to say that significant additional resonance is not also provided by mucous membranes over which low voltage interference can play easily, it just does not tie back to source very well.
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Recondicom
Power of four



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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9308995 - 11/25/08 05:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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The model that excludes the amygdale in any TOM is flawed. The amygdala is necessary for triggering rapid and relatively automatic somatic responses to reward and punishment (primary induction); encoded sensory cues. Subsequent learning. As for trying to define consciousness as higher consciousness is just presumptuous. We could also give Faith a chemical value to connect the God’s consciousness. . . bypassing all subconciousness () in the human cortex… Take out the white matter and the small vessel; motor learning… higher man’s consciousness. Relationships between ERS/ERD effects and the BOLD response for a language fluency task.
-------------------- Wave. 'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape. Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Recondicom]
#9309123 - 11/25/08 06:35 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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well you can also say that without the body there would be no consciousness, and you would be right to a significant degree.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9309359 - 11/25/08 08:16 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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but the point i am trying to make is that none of those associative netoworks are actually involved in consciousness. its not like you consciously work through all the calculations that your mind makes.. you just think, and thoughts appear. and then more thoughts appear. memory? associative memory? none of this is the action of consciousness - consciousness just receives the result
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9309379 - 11/25/08 08:24 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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are you imagining that consciousness is equivalent to a motive or willed ego? that is just an illusion of the sequence of mind moments.
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9309419 - 11/25/08 08:36 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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In the same way that the retina responds to light, there are multiaxxoned neurons within the cerebral cortex that respond to electric fields such as those that occur due to interference of waves spreading through the dendritic field of the cortex. (from sensory excitation and memory recall) This provides the experience of sensation, association and enables the fixation of memory. it is a lot like vision. Consciousness is not separate from memory formation, and is not detatchable from associative mentation. The stage upon which all of this happens is definitely the cortex.
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Lion
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9309440 - 11/25/08 08:43 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: are you imagining that consciousness is equivalent to a motive or willed ego? that is just an illusion of the sequence of mind moments.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Noteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Lion]
#9311139 - 11/25/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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i dont think consciousness is equivelant to motive or willed ego, but I do think that it involves that place in the mind where 'will' gets processed. consciousness is this 'illusion' of the sequence of mind moments but it exists between all the thoughts, it exists between focus, memory, will, sensation, etc. of these things, i think only will is a conscious process... even if it is illusory.
i dont think consciousness involves memory formation, which happens after consciousness, imo.
i wish you would concede your words more as a theory than fact. these are like the biggest questions humanity has to answer at the moment.
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Amber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9311168 - 11/25/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think of consciousness as experiencing. If you are conscious, you are having an experience. To be conscious is to be subjectively experiencing and aware of the world around you.
How does memory fit into this? I believe that to have an over-arching idea of a self or "I" then your moment-to-moment experience has to be tied together via memory in order to experience oneself as a collections of experiences over time.
As we go down the chain of being from human, to animal, to plant, etc. the long-term sense of "I" disappears, although even at the most basic level, there are flashes of experience, although without memory storage a sense of self cannot emerge.
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Noteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Amber_Glow]
#9311188 - 11/25/08 02:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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mm and what is experience other than access to a realm of sensations? i would say that memory (short and long term) feeds into our experience and forms after it, but does not occur IN conscious realm.
as we think, it seems like we have a stream of thoughts because each moment is fed with information about the last few thoughts and we keep existing in a state where the content of our current thought is a mesh of now+justbefore
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9311443 - 11/25/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said: mm and what is experience other than access to a realm of sensations? i would say that memory (short and long term) feeds into our experience and forms after it, but does not occur IN conscious realm.
as we think, it seems like we have a stream of thoughts because each moment is fed with information about the last few thoughts and we keep existing in a state where the content of our current thought is a mesh of now+justbefore
sensations include mind-sphere activity, as well as eye-sphere, ear-sphere etc. this may be a big shift in understanding for you. mind sphere activity includes memory recall/thought components (associative events) as well as fresh sensory events. everything mixes into gestalt experience where the signals occur.
so our stream of consciousness includes current activity as well as fading activity, which together ensures that memory can form with sequence, it also provides a sense of time passing.
the last few thoughts are fading out of existence. (you could interpret fading of ideation and experienceing as information about the last few thoughts being fed into the stream, but that is an extra elaboration.) the simpler approach is usually more suitable.
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Apollyphelion
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9311924 - 11/25/08 04:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have to agree with the intial post RGV -I have taken actions which were built upon a multitude of recalled memories; Not a soul would know what deep they went. Certainly concious, although more like a penumbra.
-It's like, if your mind is a geo-desic dome, subconcious is what color you paint your interior. Nobody will know it's a hot-pink, but you do. Can thoughts come out of the closet?
I think subconcious is low-tech; hard to pinpoint why I visualize though, a psychatrist trying to figure out what the patient's wardrobe at home consists of, but he doesn't realize he only has one pair of clothes.
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"I'm looking at you looking at it" SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Apollyphelion]
#9312283 - 11/25/08 05:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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interesting way to articulate how we make things more complex than they are
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PhanTomCat
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9313008 - 11/25/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: i think this is the problem with the idea of sub conscious. sub conscious is not another stream of consciousness running below radar. it is just the conditioned aspect of the mind, potential for thought, and reactions.
This is why I have a problem with the notion of people throwing around the idea that "everyone has death anxiety".... I have witnessed people have real anxiety and a conscious fear of death when posed the topic for conversation.... The subconscious reactionary fight or flight mechanism is different in perceived meaning than "death anxiety"....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Noteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9313808 - 11/25/08 09:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Noteworthy said: mm and what is experience other than access to a realm of sensations? i would say that memory (short and long term) feeds into our experience and forms after it, but does not occur IN conscious realm.
as we think, it seems like we have a stream of thoughts because each moment is fed with information about the last few thoughts and we keep existing in a state where the content of our current thought is a mesh of now+justbefore
sensations include mind-sphere activity, as well as eye-sphere, ear-sphere etc. this may be a big shift in understanding for you. mind sphere activity includes memory recall/thought components (associative events) as well as fresh sensory events. everything mixes into gestalt experience where the signals occur.
so our stream of consciousness includes current activity as well as fading activity, which together ensures that memory can form with sequence, it also provides a sense of time passing.
the last few thoughts are fading out of existence. (you could interpret fading of ideation and experienceing as information about the last few thoughts being fed into the stream, but that is an extra elaboration.) the simpler approach is usually more suitable.
no need to get condascending mate. nothing I said contradicted the idea that we have a 'mind-sphere'. Visual cortex interprets data from the eyes and turns it into a world of visible objects. this world is then presented to functions of consciousness. auditory cortex interprets data from ears and turns it into seperate sounds, or 'sound producing objects'. the same goes for touch. these cortexes also work together in order to collaborate and correspond the 'objects' that they present to consciousness. and then there is another cortex which gets its data from all the other cortex (instead of from a sensory source), and produces 'mind objects' and presents these to consciousness. this occurs in the frontal lobes.
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: PhanTomCat]
#9315157 - 11/26/08 02:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: i think this is the problem with the idea of sub conscious. sub conscious is not another stream of consciousness running below radar. it is just the conditioned aspect of the mind, potential for thought, and reactions.
This is why I have a problem with the notion of people throwing around the idea that "everyone has death anxiety".... I have witnessed people have real anxiety and a conscious fear of death when posed the topic for conversation.... The subconscious reactionary fight or flight mechanism is different in perceived meaning than "death anxiety"....
>^;;^<
like mere habits of speech useful in few contexts, with relative meaning, but not accurate or meaningful in other contexts.
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9315198 - 11/26/08 03:15 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said: .... Visual cortex interprets data from the eyes and turns it into a world of visible objects. this world is then presented to functions of consciousness. auditory cortex interprets data from ears and turns it into seperate sounds, or 'sound producing objects'. the same goes for touch. these cortexes also work together in order to collaborate and correspond the 'objects' that they present to consciousness. and then there is another cortex which gets its data from all the other cortex (instead of from a sensory source), and produces 'mind objects' and presents these to consciousness. this occurs in the frontal lobes.
there is an error in using the word "interprets" this way (sure it is used in text books and magazines)
visual cortex receives visual input....... (you can see the optic nerve jamming into the locale) audio cortex receives audio input...... local processing or elaboration is slight, simple - non interpretive. interpretation is all associative, and that is the same process throughout the cortex.
mind objects related to vision also occur primarily in the visual cortex, mental audio objects occur in audio cortex. these regions are not just input, but also house primary recall of the same events that originally occurred.
when you use the term "interprets" you surmise an additional function that does not exist there and probably supposes the need for a process and for an organ or tissue that does not exist anywhere (and maybe also an ego that does not exist as separate from the associative process which occurs throughout the cortex).
this is not condescending, it is explanatory - eeg's and nmr's show recalled visual events happenning in the visual cortex. the sites' specialities relate to the real world inputs. the various specialty regions' activities include 1. receive pattern, 2. sustain pattern into consciousness (allow to fade), 3. fix patterns into memory, and 4. recall memory pattern associatively (when pattern simmilarities arise).
my main contention is that 2 & 3 are one process, that the process occurs throughout the brain as a unified system for handling patterns, and that there is no need to propose a subconscious at all to represent the aggregate of conditioning (stored patterns and potential associations)
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Noteworthy
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9315336 - 11/26/08 05:08 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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i call the process 'interpretation' because it gets [raw data] and outputs [abstracted information]. this is the role of the cortex, and is not a conscious process. the actual way this occurs in the brain could be anything... but the fact that it happens means that there are processes occuring that are not corresponding with particular changes in consciousness at the time, and thus there is a 'subconscious' element of the mind.
i call you condascending because you talk as if you know the answer to this question and suggest that, because I do not have the same opinion to you, Im having trouble understanding the concept/s.
cmon, what neuroscience have you done that makes you feel so confident? that makes you assume im a n00b when it comes to considering this issue?
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9315464 - 11/26/08 06:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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the it we are talking about could be the occipital lobe (vision) - let us say. (in keeping with the discussion) at any single moment it accepts in visual signal pattern as an arrangement of neural signals to the cortex in a series of pulses (from the optic neural pathway) bright red here, yellow gray there...
at that point the cortex (which is largely composed by a dendritic mass) becomes a resonant 2-dimensional conductive medium. (which can be detected by eeg.) the point sources of each signal spread like rings on a pond's surface in the rain.
interference takes place.
the cortex also has multiaxoned sensors which pick up peaks of interference in the 2-d surface and form sub threashold synapses with cells that are involved in the current signal pulses, but not with other (quiet) cells.
that forms the memory pattern. memory of moments becomes fixed that way.
you could say that the interference pattern is the abstraction, and you would be right as it does generate the holographic abstraction of the incoming signal pattern. (and we also do know that memory is stored holographically throughout the cortex).
later when a simmilar holographic event occurs, i.e. similar interference peaks are sensed, the same multiaxonned sensors will fire and re-activate cells that were once linked together in a moment sometime in the past.
this is the essence of associative memory.
(repetition helps strengthen the sub threashold synapses (which appear as small scars or knobs on cortical neuron bodies - with these, the cell bodies grow)
the output from the visual cortex (occipital lobe) is patterns that go to other sections of the cortex where image fragments, and scene characteristics are mixed with other aspects of the gestalt experience of consciousness. the output of visual cortex is not labelled objects or abstract thought as you might tend to imagine, but much more kaleidoscopic.
the concurrency of electrical patterns provides the conscious experience of the moment.
associative memory (recall) is part of the concurrent conscious experience, and is not part of a different structure or concept.
articulation, speech, conversation, ratiocination even "abstract thought" are all products of associative memory. some people consider that they are evidence of consciousness, but they are only evidence of the kind of chatter the person is immersed in by habit.
even a bruisable ego is part of associative memory - part of the conditioned fabric of mind.
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Recondicom
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9315945 - 11/26/08 10:00 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Consciousness…A point; a line; a plane; a volume in a four dimensional structure. At what time sensory becomes thought? I question whether you can separate the process in one area from the other not in focus. As for the nature of the volume I content myself with thinking about whether Kundalini or any of the sexual mythologies start anywhere in the brain, I entertain myself with the possibility of being outside the body as well. As to any individuation… I give you that. Transformation is our avatar’s detail specialty.
-------------------- Wave. 'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape. Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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