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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Epigallo]
#9295817 - 11/23/08 03:33 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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we are thinkings so many things at once. almost everything around us inspires thoughts which inspire thoughts on and on. but Consciousness onnly deals with some of those thoughts at once. Even though some thoughts are not dealth with in the conscious realm, they continue to interact with eachother and set the stage for what conscious thoughts come next.
if someone is in conflict with their subconscious self, it just means that their are thoughts inside them which they cannot consciously grasp but which still influence their emotions and might conflict with the things they CAN (or DO) consciously grasp.
in 'other situations' these subconscious thoughts might be able to be grasped, eg if put in the right situation or context, or given hints or shown the world 'through the right perspective'.
and others.. theyre just subconscious almost all the time
'inner peace' can be a matter of becoming aware of all the internal forces pushing around inside you, so that you can resolve them instead of trying to do things to appease certain aspects of the mind while being unable to see how you are offending others
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9296021 - 11/23/08 05:33 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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quantum; if the picture would be frozen, no spectrum of consciousness from unconscious to conscious. that is on and off. however as regards degrees of resonance (or awakenedness) there is a huge spectrum or variance or experience types from quite dull & spotty to very elaborately enriched. when the awakenedness is very low it is almost like unconscious or no consciousness. that is also like a very thin trickle of a stream of consciousness.
dr bill; you just wrote a play, you have staged specific characters interacting with full personalities while trying to articulate a process that is supposed to be general.
i think this is the problem with the idea of sub conscious. sub conscious is not another stream of consciousness running below radar. it is just the conditioned aspect of the mind, potential for thought, and reactions.
most ideas and actions have some component or factor of conditioned existence, which would be dependent upon previous experience. some ideas and actions are artifactual (i.e. not directly prompted by conditioning) and arise as synthesis of other events in the gestalt.
separately there are instances when people are more layered and consciousness seems to be more than one person at a time by virtue of an idea persisting longer than normal while the next arises to counter and it sticks around while the next counters that. this apparent multiple stream can suggest that normally streams are running below the radar.
to explain that kind of thing, and to skirt around the mechanics of associative memory and thinking, the idea of a subconscious was proposed.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9296074 - 11/23/08 06:14 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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i wasnt proposing two fully functioning personalities - there is only one fully functioning personality but it is not conscious of all of its functioning parts. those functioning parts that it is not conscious of, is the subconscious/unconscious. consciousness is just a little part of whats going on in our minds at any one moment.
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9296103 - 11/23/08 06:39 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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right, not conscious of functioning parts to a degree i.e. most of us do not watch the mechanism
here "functioning" denotes holding associativity or reaction potential, or can trigger a memory/sequence/response.
as such there are no signposts in the terrain of consciousness indicating that such and such stimulus will at this juncture give that response - so to this extent we are not conscious of the functioning parts.
the parts, however, are the whole, and the whole is an association machine. what happens together in an experience becomes conditioned as a memory (snapshots & short sequences). what is simmilar (by motif/or holographic interference matching) is also associated. the associations are relatively permanent bindings. what is repeated is more strongly bound. simmilar motif's in ongoing consciousness, may engender recall.
that is the nature of conditioning. it is the mind fabric, not a separate consciousness.
consciousness is just the active stream/area where experiencing excites the associative fabric. (the stage)
the attitudes or masks that emerge from the associative fabric take on the aspect of personality on the stage of experiencing.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9296177 - 11/23/08 07:21 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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but how does conditioning have to do with the difference between conscious and subconscious?
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9296200 - 11/23/08 07:31 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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well there is no subconscious it is just potential associativity.
calling it subconscious mind presumes a split in something that is whole, and presumes a mechanism other than mere associativity.
also in many cases the subconscious is presented as a host of other personalities, urges, intentions, or secret motives, etc.; while it is really just how the fabric of mind is wound up to respond by virtue of conditioning.
i.e. mind is not other than mind, & consciousness does not have a secret co-rider called the subconscious, in stead we have to see that that is the conditioned potential of the whole mind itself.
extra personalities are what seems to emerge as fading of signals extends: i.e. when mental state is more layered, that is when more than one stream of consciousness can be concurrent - it can be very rich, or scary.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9296308 - 11/23/08 08:25 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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i think you gotta get over the 'co-rider' idea though..
it is merely a layman's idea of subconscious
the sort of thing that people try to refer to when they 'blame' their subconscious mind for things or for thoughts.
All neurons are firing at least 60hz and others fire faster depending on the strength of their activation.
certain activations seem to correlate with consciousness while others seem correlate according to mental processes that are not included in conscious awareness.
teh words conscious mind and unconscious mind are not like two seperate things, they are descriptions of the state of one thing. eg, some parts of brain action will be of a state which correlates with consciousness, others will not
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9296439 - 11/23/08 09:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said: i think you gotta get over the 'co-rider' idea though..
it is merely a layman's idea of subconscious
the sort of thing that people try to refer to when they 'blame' their subconscious mind for things or for thoughts.
All neurons are firing at least 60hz and others fire faster depending on the strength of their activation.
certain activations seem to correlate with consciousness while others seem correlate according to mental processes that are not included in conscious awareness.
teh words conscious mind and unconscious mind are not like two seperate things, they are descriptions of the state of one thing. eg, some parts of brain action will be of a state which correlates with consciousness, others will not
i agree, the co rider thing, is the problem with the terminology (both psychiatric and lay terminology); specifically wrt the term "subconscious".
the topic of firing of neurons is about how the fabric works.
I am not sure why you would introduce this comment "All neurons are firing at least 60hz and others fire faster depending on the strength of their activation." (all-the set of all neurons- and others - a set of neurons that are not among the all set- is not a statement that resolves)
there is some wiring in the brain that involves feedback (i.e. via thalamus and basal ganglia). the feedback supports pulse trains (sensory feeds and memory feeds into the fabric) the aggregate of pulse trains differentiate what is happenning in the moment from what is not happenning, and enables cells involved in the matrix of activation to be interconnected into a memory image.
in any case, any active part of the cortex contributes to consciousness. this is the action on stage; cortex activity is the stage set and action.
the aggregate of potential linkages that may become triggerred (also cortex) are mis-labeled subconscious. the part of mind that is not resonating.
the moment any part of the brain is resonating, it contributes to consciousness.
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Recondicom
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9299521 - 11/23/08 07:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Rider: The bully Co-rider: The liar.
-------------------- Wave. 'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape. Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Recondicom]
#9299591 - 11/23/08 07:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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who is doing the identifying? (one, two or three?)
i think when you have co-riders, it is seldom just 2, and it has a lot to do with stretching the sense of time out too. (i.e being stoned, emotional, or in dreams)
one person can become many when extra persistence kicks in. each enduring character has live reaction contexts and they can interact semi-autononmously.
it can be hillarious, or very painful.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9301383 - 11/24/08 12:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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well i included the 60hz comment to reinforce the fact that teh whole brain is always 'active', and some bits are just 'more active'.
at any rate, I dont really think that consciousness resides in the cortex. I think it exists as processing in the inner brain, whereas the cortex gives it the great number of tools, symbols that it can manifest. subconscious processes can involve communications between parts of the cortex which do not all feed into the inner brain.
The reason I think the inner brain contains consciousness is because I cannot see animals just moving from non-conscious to conscious. They are all conscious, but higher animals have a lot more at their conscious disposal, and this correlates with the increased cortex size and differentiation.
but this is only my hunch
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9302141 - 11/24/08 04:11 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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i get it you think these animals have no cortex. so the hunch is wrong. they do have cortex it is just less complex and in many creatures it is not even wrinkled. they have plenty of consciousness, and that resides largely in cortex, they have but less memory fixation and less recall, less conditioned personality.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9302210 - 11/24/08 04:57 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, i didnt say nor did I think that the animals have no cortex. I just dont think it is responsible for consciousness. Why do you?
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9302309 - 11/24/08 06:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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because that is the destination of all sensory pathways, the source of all motor pathways, and it's dendritic mass is a great place where all the signals can mix, form memories and generate recall based impulses (and this activity is mostly what you see on an eeg)
every other structure is related to routing (chiasma), gateway (basal ganglia, thalamus), pulse modulation/attenuation (reticular formation), pulse delay/sequencing (eg cerebellum), or autonomic hormonal modulation - amygdala and reptile/ pre-reptile structures.
only cortex is an endpoint, source, or integrator/reverberator.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9302526 - 11/24/08 08:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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mmm
I think you are discounting those latter elements as teh elements of consciousness. to me, consciousness involves the direct moment between desires and reactions and impulses. all the specifics of memories and how tehy interact, of mental pathways and where they lead, I think this stuff goes on behind the veil of consciousness. its like the cortex forms 'units' of thought and 'collections' of thoughts, and 'orders' of thoughts, but in the end they all end up coming together as a created world in consciousness, and a world which we can manipulate. eg we can manipulate thoughts by simply thinking about them. this is something that seperates us from animals. but as far as consciousness goes, this is just a matter of more stable and complex units of thought arising that encompas vivid abstract information which can in itself be thought of as a constant aspect of the environment, just like the world created from our senses.
we have this extra loop going on which allows consciousness to react to more and more abstract things (because once you can think of something abstract, you can think abstractly about it, and from the two abstract notions, more abstractions can be made.
we as humans give ourselves a lot of credit for our thoughts. usually, great things are the product of practice, which puts everything at the hands of consciousness in an appropriate manner for reaction, and creativity - which, like an impulse, pushes novel neural formations (structures and perhaps time-related codes in the cortex) into consciousness.
I mean, this is even how I think about my life these days, and information, knowlege, the ability to perform actions with skill or without skill. I have to program into my consciousness the means. I can do this by focusing my attention in certain places. by directing effort to certain ends which i can consciously grasp. but am I consciously constructing them or relating them to other thoughts? I dont think so. I think that information just appears to me depending on which thoughts I push effort into (and thus engage with)
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9302997 - 11/24/08 09:49 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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abstract notions, and meta layers of thought, (all the castles in the sky - so to speak) are what resonate more forward in the cortex, as opposed to the middle and rear parts which include body -world sense, and memory.
those notions occur co-temporally with body/world consciousness, and signals from that activity wash over the rest of the cortex when you are immersed in that type of thinking. (in turn elevating the new memories of the ongoing moments or depressing them)
it does not require any additional structure than the cortex itself, except for holding onto an idea, - or swinging from one to another, which involves some basal ganglia and the feedback that can fix an idea into memory, or help memory emerge on the stage - which is the whole cortex as a unit.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9303422 - 11/24/08 11:06 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I dont think an abstract notion/meta layers of thought all exist in prefrontal cortex because words are very abstract notions but these are processed in the temporal lobes when receiving text.
by abstract thought, i mean symbolic thought.
I think the abstract thought you are talking about is stuff which is aBOUt abstract things, but abstract thoughts are central to our lives and often refer to very concrete things
eg. reading the words 'chicken farm' can inspire heaps of meaning, a lot of which is just associated with the meaning of these words. ITs basically all abstract info though. Its hard to think of things concretely except when they are reinforcing themselves in the present. otherwise, we have to rely on internal abstractions to keep track
So in direct response, I would consider the frontal lobes to be concerned with abstractions of abstractions (that is, thoughts about thoughts, or senses about senses). But the rest of the cortex also deals with abstractions. the 'anterior' abstractions however cannot interact on a conscious level without interacting through frontal lobe abstractions.
and i dont like using the word abstraction so much because it has various meanings in common language which might be more specific than the general sense I am using here
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Recondicom
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9303741 - 11/24/08 12:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I like the amigdala. The primitive brain does not need any cortex and it defines consciousness as a mere “feeling”. Even bacteria feel heat and cold. Most of the dialog of the frontal cortex has to do with vision, but the search for emotion is what triggers the thought. (as ex DNA conditioning of looking and connecting “nice ass”) Repression/Augmentation goes on where we could insert conversation. As the brain gets tired of the mambo/jumbo it searches for synesthetic pathways to abstract itself. Animal noises help. Lots of jumping around, monkey smelling the flowers, the cabin log, and ultimately the fresh air. As the blind attentively hears eyes fixed, the quality of the BS counts. Other senses jump in wanting a piece of existence. Naturally, the pursue of happiness and whatever that means would go in any direction. Conditioning of the pure thought will require a moralistic/virtuous approach of educating the amigdala to a mere bleep. A Socratic What is virtue? Whether the senses will revolt is depending on the creation of pathways to a new consciousness. Some hedonic brains write on this particular issue commonly with the availability of chemicals. The amigdala loves the variety of chemicals. But the DNA…(bleep)
-------------------- Wave. 'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape. Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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redgreenvines
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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: Noteworthy]
#9307110 - 11/24/08 08:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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you are right about temporal having abstract content and hearing oriented or language oriented content you would expect that for a region of the cortex that gets its sensory feed from ears and cerebellum
however language oriented content will also be found elsewhere, and if the temporal lobe is damaged, new language ability will form distributed in other parts of the cortex.
the frontal cortex is not fed directly by any single sensory feed, so all the activity there is abstracted from activity elsewhere, you could call it the meta brain, lots of good philosophy art and math gets done here - but is linked through out the cortex, and can be supported by less generalized areas as well if these are damaged.
the pre-frontal cortex - more remote yet, is like the meta meta brain, or over brain and we can assume it to be the seat of morality - it seems very quiet in psychopathic types, and children. I believe that the moral functions can also be relocated with training as well if it is damaged.
while any part of cortex can be used to handle any secondary processing (after signals have arrived), the more forward territory is less fixed to the body/world.
as for amygdala and feeling. it is more a very low resolution organ, it reports localized and generalized sensations as nominal (uninteresting) moderate (pleasant feeling) and intense (painful feeling) and helps motivate fight or flight - this is below the level of consciousness, consciousness has to clean up the mess that the amygdala leaves behind.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: unconscious mind vs conscious mind take 2 [Re: redgreenvines]
#9308262 - 11/24/08 11:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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ok, so.. what are you intuitions about my theory of consciousness occuring in the signal/exchange/focus part of the brain, and the complexity of our consciousness simply owing to the complexity of the cortex-tools available to it?
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