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InvisibleIcelander
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Sense
    #9284739 - 11/21/08 11:40 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I used to be a religious crazy. I gave it up as it didn't make sense.

I was a new age true believer. I gave it up as it didn't make sense

I really don't think science has any important answers for us but it does have value.

That leaves logic. My attempt at logic says there is only Tao and being self aware, which causes death anxiety. Nothing fun or comforting here. But then there's hedonism and living for the moment.

This may be the ace in the whole.

And.. it makes sense.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Sense [Re: Icelander]
    #9285600 - 11/21/08 01:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Hedonism will bring misery because every thing you indulge in will eventually leave you, its fun for a while for sure but you cant find lasting satisfaction & fulfillment in it, many lifetimes worth but not eternal fulfillment

how does self awareness & tao cause death anxiety?

Imo if you had really explored the Tao & who you are in relation to it then you wouldnt think that "nothing fun or comforting here" because its the most incredible, this isn't just my opinion, beings have been saying it for thousands of years, its the highest

If you really think temporary happyness is better then infinite bliss...whatever floats your boat...

Enjoy yourself in the wolrd until it can no longer be the source of your enjoyment, exaughst your hedonism

It may sound nihilistic to live without the world as your source of enjoyment, but when you live from that place, you bring enjoyment to the world, not the other way round...

:peace:


--------------------


Edited by Chronic7 (11/21/08 02:03 PM)


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Sense [Re: Chronic7]
    #9285770 - 11/21/08 02:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:

[the tao]'s the most incredible, this isn't just my opinion, beings have been saying it for thousands of years, its the highest

If you really think temporary happyness is better then infinite bliss...whatever floats your boat...

:peace:




Is this not really just hedonism? Infinite bliss sounds like hedonism to me. Of course most people mean something else by hedonism but, if you get back to definitions...


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Sense [Re: Chronic7]
    #9285920 - 11/21/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Hedonism will bring misery because every thing you indulge in will eventually leave you, its fun for a while for sure but you cant find lasting satisfaction & fulfillment in it, many lifetimes worth but not eternal fulfillment




you're missing out on some of the definitions of hedonism :wink:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Sense [Re: Chronic7]
    #9286001 - 11/21/08 02:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Hedonism will bring misery because every thing you indulge in will eventually leave you, its fun for a while for sure but you cant find lasting satisfaction & fulfillment in it, many lifetimes worth but not eternal fulfillment





Hedonism is about maximizing pleasure and minimizing suffering.

Whether it brings misery or not depends on your level of skill at living.  Some only bumble around with drugs or gambling, others find more hedonistic value in self-acceptance and mindfulness.  Seeking pleasure does not necessarily equate to attachment to pleasure, or aversion to suffering.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sense [Re: Chronic7]
    #9286129 - 11/21/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Hedonism will bring misery because every thing you indulge in will eventually leave you,

Hedonism need have nothing to do with indulging. You are giving pleasure a bad rap.

Yes everything is impermanent and the hedonist knows it and takes extreme pleasure in the moment whenever possible.

The Tao makes no promise of infinite bliss. Where did you come by that one?

Nihilists and hedonists are very compatible.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sense [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9286140 - 11/21/08 03:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Hedonism will bring misery because every thing you indulge in will eventually leave you, its fun for a while for sure but you cant find lasting satisfaction & fulfillment in it, many lifetimes worth but not eternal fulfillment





Hedonism is about maximizing pleasure and minimizing suffering.

Whether it brings misery or not depends on your level of skill at living.  Some only bumble around with drugs or gambling, others find more hedonistic value in self-acceptance and mindfulness.  Seeking pleasure does not necessarily equate to attachment to pleasure, or aversion to suffering.




Right the fuck on.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinejvm
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Re: Sense [Re: Icelander]
    #9289551 - 11/22/08 12:41 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any knowledge of the empirical world. All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it."

Address the IDEAS, not the poster. ~V


Edited by Veritas (11/24/08 10:33 AM)


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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Sense [Re: Icelander]
    #9290289 - 11/22/08 04:34 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry i always thought hedonism was indulging the senses in as many external pleasures as possible??? Sex power money cars food drugs...

Anything that teaches you to seek happyness outside yourself is mistaken imo, & unless im incorrect hedonism teaches you to go after sensory pleasures no?




--------------------


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Sense [Re: Chronic7]
    #9290626 - 11/22/08 09:02 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If everything is impermenant then surely we should look to having as much pleasure in the moment as possible. However i'm personally in disagreement on that one. I try to work towards long term goals for moments of extreme pleasure rather than getting constant average pleasure, if that makes sense?

Living completely in the moment doesn't make sense to me as a method of living. You have to look to the future otherwise you're gonna skip work today lose your job and you won't be able to afford to go to the gig next week. Living completely in the moment seems silly to me and i dont think anyone really does it, except maybe eckhart tolle "I quit my job and sat on a park bench for two years." lol yeh great mate nice one :thumbup:.

I for one would rather have a job and afford to be able to buy some weed this weekend and go out with my mates and experience the world. I wanna go on holiday next year much more than i don't want to go to work now (i have a shit job atm). I could make an analogy of this to mushrooms you have an unpleasant time and throw yourself into bad emotion in order to feel better about yourself later.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Invisibleawesomebastard
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Re: Sense [Re: Icelander]
    #9290664 - 11/22/08 09:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I dont see a problem with hedonism.

Whatever makes you happy it's your life no one elses.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sense [Re: awesomebastard]
    #9291791 - 11/22/08 01:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This is how I feel. But I must remember that my freedom stops where yours begins.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Sense [Re: Icelander]
    #9291803 - 11/22/08 01:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

My freedom extends over the entire planet.



--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sense [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9291861 - 11/22/08 01:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Hue? is that you?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Sense [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9291896 - 11/22/08 02:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
My freedom extends over the entire planet.






that's the second time this month i've seen you post that pic.

come on now.  i've seen enough destruction as it is.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Sense [Re: Icelander]
    #9291915 - 11/22/08 02:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Hue? is that you?




Better not make any more Kentucky/Deliverance jokes. :nono:


--------------------


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Invisiblezannennagara
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Re: Sense [Re: Chronic7]
    #9292096 - 11/22/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Sorry i always thought hedonism was indulging the senses in as many external pleasures as possible??? Sex power money cars food drugs...

Anything that teaches you to seek happyness outside yourself is mistaken imo, & unless im incorrect hedonism teaches you to go after sensory pleasures no?




Who's to say that sensory pleasures are "outside yourself?"

Spiritualism seems to negate itself if it demands focus on experience internal to the mind of the material body - shouldn't we be dissolving boundaries between "internal" and "external?"


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Sense [Re: zannennagara]
    #9295754 - 11/23/08 03:18 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Hedonism is definately the right way.. it is the only way.. hedonism means having pleasure as your goal. Everyone wants pleasure. We just seek it in different ways. Eg some ppl deny themselves pleasure so that they can receive pleasure in the afterlife. Other people just get sensory pleasures and expose themselves right now.

and yet other people set up their life so that they are working toward a life that can support the most pleasure possible, while they are alive.

this means slaving yourself so that you can earn enough for a comfortable home.

If you aknowlege you are working for the final result, you aknowlege you are a hedonist.

but some people work for a good house because they are taught that it is the right thing.

they do not learn to appreciate what they are actually working toward and then they end up with all this money and stuff and they dont know what to do with it so they just keep going with what pleasured them the most - fullfilling their ideals, and earning more and more


--------------------


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OfflineRatci
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Re: Sense [Re: Chronic7]
    #9296914 - 11/23/08 12:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Hedonism will bring misery because every thing you indulge in will eventually leave you, its fun for a while for sure but you cant find lasting satisfaction & fulfillment in it, many lifetimes worth but not eternal fulfillment

how does self awareness & tao cause death anxiety?

Imo if you had really explored the Tao & who you are in relation to it then you wouldnt think that "nothing fun or comforting here" because its the most incredible, this isn't just my opinion, beings have been saying it for thousands of years, its the highest

If you really think temporary happyness is better then infinite bliss...whatever floats your boat...

Enjoy yourself in the wolrd until it can no longer be the source of your enjoyment, exaughst your hedonism

It may sound nihilistic to live without the world as your source of enjoyment, but when you live from that place, you bring enjoyment to the world, not the other way round...

:peace:




Indulgence and attachment are not mutually inclusive


--------------------
People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. --Albert Einstein


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Sense [Re: Icelander]
    #9298011 - 11/23/08 03:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't tao and living in the moment one in the same?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Sense [Re: Cracka_X]
    #9298030 - 11/23/08 03:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Living in the moment is Tao, but Tao isn't necessarily living in the moment.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Sense [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9298057 - 11/23/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Last I checked, The Tao was out on the golf course playing with The Now.


--------------------


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OfflineLion
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Re: Sense [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9298123 - 11/23/08 03:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Where was the brown cow in all of this?!?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Sense [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9298879 - 11/23/08 05:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Last I checked, The Tao was out on the golf course playing with The Now.




Yeah, same here.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Sense [Re: Cracka_X]
    #9299240 - 11/23/08 06:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cracka_X said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Last I checked, The Tao was out on the golf course playing with The Now.




Yeah, same here.




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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sense [Re: Chronic7]
    #9302769 - 11/24/08 09:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

indulging the senses in as many external pleasures as possible??

Not necessarily. Hedonism is choosing for yourself what really would make you happy and then pursuing it. Everyone is trying to be happy including you. Many people choose paths that really don't reach the goal. It's all in the skillfulness of your choosing.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineRatci
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Re: Sense [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9303849 - 11/24/08 12:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Living in the moment is Tao, but Tao isn't necessarily living in the moment.




That's what I like to call "squares and rectangles," but whenever I say it, no one gets it.

Spread the expression :wink:


--------------------
People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. --Albert Einstein


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OfflineBernackums
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Re: Sense [Re: Icelander]
    #9305140 - 11/24/08 04:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

That must be the third time this week you've had to correct someone of misinformed Hedonism. I'd say someone should make a thread posting the correct definition, but I'm certain it's been done a few times.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Sense [Re: Bernackums]
    #9305260 - 11/24/08 04:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

P&S thrives on repetition.


--------------------


Edited by OrgoneConclusion (11/24/08 06:36 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Sense [Re: Icelander]
    #9305666 - 11/24/08 05:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Sense, huh? I'm all about nonsense... way more fun!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sense [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9309546 - 11/25/08 09:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Living in the moment is Tao, but Tao isn't necessarily living in the moment.




Not living in the moment is Tao.:shrug: Or did I miss that part in the Tao rule book?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Sense [Re: Icelander]
    #9309620 - 11/25/08 09:26 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:


I really don't think science has any important answers for us but it does have value.

That leaves logic. My attempt at logic says there is only Tao and being self aware, which causes death anxiety. Nothing fun or comforting here. But then there's hedonism and living for the moment.

This may be the ace in the whole.

And.. it makes sense.




Hedonism is being enslaved to the senses.  There is no freedom in hedonism.  When you are truly in the now all sense of time disappears.  Time definitely gets funny whenever you are focused very strongly for a period of "time".  For awhile you experience timelessness and a measure of freedom that goes along with it.  This new feeling becomes addictive...

Hedonism is not being intensely focused.  It is a state of searching for mindless entertainment.  Hedonistic mind is like a bored couch potato channel surfing, it is distracted and out of focus.  Being in a state of focus and concentrated awareness is difficult for all beginners.  It is the difficulty that necessitates the concentration in the first place.  Your focus drops into yourself and your experience becomes qualitatively different.

This change of time experience is an indication that you are becoming aware that reality is far larger than the narrow constraints of "consensus reality".

A nihilistic viewpoint can act as a blinder if it gets stuck on your perspective.  Reason being is that whatever you focus on becomes stronger and more real for you.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sense [Re: Mr.Al]
    #9309628 - 11/25/08 09:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Obviously you missed the explanation of true hedonism.

You may go on about your business.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNexion
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Re: Sense [Re: Icelander]
    #9309654 - 11/25/08 09:35 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"Live in the now mannnn!"

Who says you have 'suscribe' to any philosophy or religion or belief system, just live. Fuck questions and answers and interpretations, there are only experiences.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Sense [Re: Icelander]
    #9309695 - 11/25/08 09:42 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Hedonism has connotations, for myself, that lead to unproductive dead ends.  I would certainly entertain a discussion on what you phrase "true hedonism".

I have noticed that difficult experiences, when embraced, produce personal growth.  This does not jive with my understanding of hedonism.  I have started doing yoga everyday as of late.  Finding the edge of a posture and holding it is difficult and definitely increases concentration.  Thoughts dissipate in the concentration and sense of time disappears with the thoughts.

My take is that self discipline equals freedom.  Again, self discipline does not seem to go well with hedonism.

We perhaps have very different definitions of the word.
If you feel like giving me your definition, by all means.


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OfflineNexion
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Re: Sense [Re: Mr.Al]
    #9309737 - 11/25/08 09:51 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sense [Re: Mr.Al]
    #9309750 - 11/25/08 09:55 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If you read this whole thread you would have come across my definition of what I call enlightened hedonism.

I have started doing yoga everyday as of late.  Finding the edge of a posture and holding it is difficult and definitely increases concentration.  Thoughts dissipate in the concentration and sense of time disappears with the thoughts.

You have just described it. You do this all for your pleasure even though you know there is work and even some pain involved. The outcome (you hope) is a more relaxed and joyful state of being. Now what could be more hedonistic than that? Grubbing additively after some thrill or momentary bauble is actually the antithesis of hedonism in my book. Why? Because it doesn't bring long term pleasure or the cost/benefit ratio is not good.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Sense [Re: Mr.Al]
    #9309764 - 11/25/08 09:59 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I would distinguish between the type of mindless consumerism you've deemed "hedonism" and a rational pleasure-finding mindset which I call hedonism.

It is clear that short-range, fear- and greed-based consumerism  is not a pleasure-oriented philosophy.  It is primarily a pain-avoidance pursuit, and the brief pleasures are rarely savored as they become worthless as soon as they cease to be novel.

Contrast this with a pleasure-finding philosophy, in which one utilizes rationality to reduce self-inflicted suffering, and activities are savored as long as they last, to be released as gracefully as possible when they end.  This is not a self-denying ascetic lifestyle, in which the "lower" pleasures are seen as wrong or sinful, but one in which a variety of pleasures are valued.

The Flow state you described is key to such a lifestyle, as entering into this state is a sign of full engagement in an activity.  Maslow called these activities "peak moments," and believed that a satisfying life would include as many as possible.  THIS is true hedonism.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Sense [Re: Veritas]
    #9309772 - 11/25/08 10:00 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yes indeedy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Sense [Re: Nexion]
    #9309801 - 11/25/08 10:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Sometimes something that doesn't make sense can act like a roshach ink blot.  It can pull things out from parts of your mind that you are not consciously aware of.


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OfflineNexion
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Registered: 10/07/08
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Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Sense [Re: Mr.Al]
    #9309929 - 11/25/08 10:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)



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