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mr_kite
The Watcher



Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: deCypher]
#9285875 - 11/21/08 02:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Everything tends towards equilibrium automatically

http://blogs.southflorida.com/citylink_dansweeney/_39902518_shanemagowan.jpg
Shane Mcgowan of the Pogues??
Thats a fairly obviously overtly sweeping generalisation, and deserves to be ridiculed as much as possible.
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: mr_kite]
#9285992 - 11/21/08 02:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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By ridiculing a post you only bring balance to the message board.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: deCypher]
#9286007 - 11/21/08 03:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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deimya
tofu and monocle


Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: ausländer.ch
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#9286119 - 11/21/08 03:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Equilibrium is not a state which anything SEEKS to be in, it simply is the most probable macroscopic state. Actually exponentially more probable. This "exponentially" is very important since because of it everything seems to always be in or tend to equilibrium. That is all, you may skip the rest of the post if you don't seek convoluted explanations.
First we need to distinguish between microscopic and macroscopic states: if you have one million atoms with each of them described by a certain number of parameters (classically, for point-like particles, this number is 6 because you have 3 coordinates for positions and 3 coordinates for momentum, quantum mechanically it is the number of quantum numbers needed to completely specify a state of a particle), then you would need 6 millions numbers to specify a particular microscopic state of your system. On the other hand, what we perceive in our everyday life, the macroscopic state of our system, may be specified by incredibly less parameters, for example temperature and pressure. Therefore we expect it is possible that many different microscopic states give the same macroscopic state; there may be a thousand different microscopic ways to bring about the same temperature and pressure one feels. (Actually these numbers a astronomically bigger, of the order of 10^23)
So, by simply counting the amount of microscopic states that give the same macroscopic state, you see that one such class of microscopic states is much bigger than all the others, and therefore it is incredibly more probable to be in such a state. This is the macroscopic equilibrium state. Entropy is a logarithmic measure of how big such a class is. If there is a difference of 50 entropy units between two macroscopic states, then the one with 50 entropy units more than the other is made up of approximately 2^50 times, that is more or less one trillion times, more microscopic states than the first, and therefore it is a trillion times more probable to find your system in such a higher entropy state.
The "liking" of the equilibrium state is simply that over time, the system is much more likely, actually exponentially more likely, to spend most of its time in any of these microscopic states which give the same macroscopic "equilibrium" state. There is no intent, only statistical obviousness.
But to go back the the main question, most part of the universe are actually far from equilibrium because there are energy and matter flux everywhere, shuffling stuff around and moderately amplifying fluctuations everywhere, pushing the system in many states which are no necessarily the most probable, or equilibrium, ones, and as a whole there is no way to actually know whether the universe is in equilibrium or not, as for one thing it seems to be expanding. At best it is an ill-formulated question.
There is no intent, only the law of large numbers. Blame the latter if you wish.
Edited by deimya (11/21/08 03:32 PM)
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JackthaTripper
MSME!



Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 2,494
Loc: Mind Exploration
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#9286148 - 11/21/08 03:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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The universe 'likes' (or has in has an affinity towards) equilibrium because the universe strives to be energetic and this stale concept is the reason there is such a dynamic existence.
For example, as the universe tends to seek this equilibrium properties are exchanged (ie moisture is drawn to dry region) in an attempt to make all equal. These changes result in an unbalance of other properties (ie this introduction of moisture changes the specific heat of the material making it cooler). This imbalance is preceded by an affinity to once again become steady state, changing other properties (ie giving up heat which causes thermal constriction)...and so on always changing but never fully reaching a content state. This ensures an always changing universe.
So, seemingly contradictory, this boring concept of equilibrium is the cause of our interesting reality.
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Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
Edited by JackthaTripper (11/22/08 02:36 PM)
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: deimya]
#9286169 - 11/21/08 03:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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That was interesting
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#9289350 - 11/22/08 12:01 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Bump
How does Occams Razor fit into the desire for equilibrium
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 10 days
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#9295918 - 11/23/08 04:27 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I dont think it does. occams razor involves explinations. maybe if you had an explination for equilibrium, you could put it to the occam test.
but you wont get anywhere by using terms like 'like' or 'strive' for nonconscious systems.
if you believe the universe is conscious, then you have you answer - the universe just likes equilibrium.
but if you dont believe the universe is conscious, then you get into problems when using the word 'like' or 'strive'.
these words imply an ends. they imply that some idealised state or 'end' or 'result' is included along with the emotion of desire or determination.
an equilibirium is not THERE in the universe, with the universe drifting toward it.
the equilibrium is our human way of marking a destination of the predicted stablisation of an interacting system.
equilibrium between A and B occurs when there is excess energy in A, and its most direct flow is to B. Also, the energy must not be able to flow directly out to C, so it can only really flow back to A.
the flow from A to B is proportional to the difference in A and B. so first, A is very full and B is not. So energy flows from A to B at a high rate, and then because of intertial forces, continues to flow, leading B to be fuller than A, but not by much, so a little bit of energy flows back to A but in doing so, A get a bit more full , and eventually, the amount going back and forth is smaller than our tools of significant measurement, and this is considered the equilibrium.
an equilibrium is an asymptote, however. in mathematics, we treat asymptotes as if they reach 0 at infinity. but they actually dont. but for all intents and purposes, they do. equilibrium is like this.
The whole universe is likely trying to reach an equilibrium since the beginning of time, the first stone dropped in the pond. the ripples will never dissapear but eventually the pond will be more or less ready for another stone to be dropped. This initial distrubance might be thought of as 'om', a notion in the hundi religions which was the original vibration which resonates for through everything, and forms everything. whether or not you believe in the hindu Om, Om also represents a scientific notion - the first discernable disturbance in the universe (if there was one)
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Ratci
Esper<3



Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 1,039
Loc: Coumbia MD
Last seen: 11 years, 1 day
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: deCypher]
#9296881 - 11/23/08 11:54 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: To say that the Universe "likes" anything is to anthropomorphize a non-human entity.
That's a bit redundant. Anthropomorphization of anything isn't anthropomorphization if the thing it's anthropomorphizing is already human. =P
-------------------- People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. --Albert Einstein
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Ratci]
#9298837 - 11/23/08 05:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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So the universe is human now? Wow I learn alot of interesting things in this forum.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: DieCommie]
#9298885 - 11/23/08 05:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: So the universe is human now?
Partially...
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper




Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#9298892 - 11/23/08 05:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Rather than equilibrium, how about take a step back and say it's about action and reaction?
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Ratci]
#9298931 - 11/23/08 05:51 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ratci said:
Quote:
deCypher said: To say that the Universe "likes" anything is to anthropomorphize a non-human entity.
That's a bit redundant. Anthropomorphization of anything isn't anthropomorphization if the thing it's anthropomorphizing is already human. =P
Anthropomorphization hates to be anthropomorphized.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9299129 - 11/23/08 06:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I came to the conclusion tripping on shrooms once that all consciousness is, is the universe experiencing its self.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 10 days
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#9301549 - 11/24/08 12:41 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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since consciousness is experiencing the universe, and is part of the universe, this seems like a foolproof truth
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Ratci
Esper<3



Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 1,039
Loc: Coumbia MD
Last seen: 11 years, 1 day
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#9303878 - 11/24/08 12:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said: I came to the conclusion tripping on shrooms once that all consciousness is, is the universe experiencing its self.
It's funny that that's what EXACTLY what Brad Warner said, but he doesn't believe drugs can teach you anything.
-------------------- People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. --Albert Einstein
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Ratci]
#9304103 - 11/24/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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lol has this dude ever taken a heroic dose or smoked a pipe full of spice?
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Ratci
Esper<3



Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 1,039
Loc: Coumbia MD
Last seen: 11 years, 1 day
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#9304676 - 11/24/08 03:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said: lol has this dude ever taken a heroic dose or smoked a pipe full of spice?
If you're talking to me, yeah, Brad Warner did his share growing up. He had some trip reports in Hardcore Zen
-------------------- People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. --Albert Einstein
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Ratci]
#9305839 - 11/24/08 06:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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How has he not learned anything?
He must just think trips are a manifestation of the mind, when in fact they are real valid experiences.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Why does the universe like equilibrium? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#9306618 - 11/24/08 07:54 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't see why a "manifestation of the mind" and a "real valid experience" would be opposites.
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