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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt
#9273420 - 11/19/08 05:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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While I was out today, I found a couple fly agaric families poking out of the ground:
Even though the one in the front is still a bit young, I decided to pick it, since it's in a high taffic area and was apt to get trampled if I left it where it was.
Here's the other group I found, you can see they're much lighter in color:
The tallest one in particular is very pale! I left the smaller ones to continue growing, but harvested the larger two. To my surprise, they were actually growing from fused bases:
I took a break mid-way through writing this to pick up some stuff for dinner, and on the way spotted a couple large specimens in a patch that I haven't seen fruiting in my past outings. I didn't have my camera with me, but I took a pic when I got home (with a quarter on the larger one to give perspective:
I was worried that the season might be ending, but it seems like the frost from the other night actually encouraged the mycelia to begin fruiting some more, I saw at least a dozen baby muscaria just starting to push their heads aboveground. On the whole, it seems like a good season; I've got more muscaria in my fridge than I know what to do with! Guess it's time to dry another bunch of them to keep me supplied through the spring.
I've been pretty surprised by the variety of colors present in these local muscaria patches. Some of the patches produce mushrooms whose skin is bright red when they first emerge, and fade to orange with time and sunlight (as is typical of var. flavivolvata). Other patches produce mushrooms that are orange-skinned as soon as they emerge, though their color also fades somewhat with exposure to rain and sunlight. I wonder if this is within the normal variation of var. flavivolvata, or if there are two PNW flavivolvata varieties?
Edited by Entropymancer (11/19/08 05:55 PM)
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kergan
Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 1,195
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Entropymancer]
#9273458 - 11/19/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nice picts.I have to go out again this weekend. Its Getting cold here to but i think there are some more out there.
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: kergan]
#9273469 - 11/19/08 05:08 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks.
Oh, I forgot to include it in that post, but I also found one very young specimen, where the universal veil is still almost completely intact. You can make out the yellowish tint that's characteristic of var. flavivolvata:
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mushroomhunter10
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Entropymancer]
#9273778 - 11/19/08 06:03 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I know somebody that needs prints of Amanitas if you PM me I'll tell you who.
-------------------- Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE. Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever! The U.S. Constitution! Best WBS Tek EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek MY TRADES
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: mushroomhunter10]
#9273809 - 11/19/08 06:10 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I know somebody that needs prints of Amanitas
What are they going to do with the print?
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Entropymancer]
#9274062 - 11/19/08 06:47 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nice find, nice ID.
One of the distinguishing characteristics of this mushroom are the yellow warts that fade with age. I noticed the first two mushrooms have white warts. I'm not sure what that means.
Tulloss follows Singer with the basionym, Amanita muscaria subsp. flavivolvata , whereas Kuo follows Kirk with the same name you gave it. I'm not sure what the difference is between a variation and a subspecies, perhaps none.
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canid
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#9274099 - 11/19/08 06:52 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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in my experience, the yellow develops [or can develop] as a slow bruising reaction anywhere the young tissue is damaged, so it isn't isolated to the breakup of the u-veil. it can be down right prominent.
-------------------- Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it. If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: canid]
#9274171 - 11/19/08 06:59 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Evidently, the first two photos have yellow warts that have faded to white. That's only a guess though. I have never picked or seen these variation.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: canid]
#9274176 - 11/19/08 06:59 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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The yellow ones are a yet to be named variation of muscaria.
All the others are flavivolvata.
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2859558484
Growery is Better
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Entropymancer]
#9274193 - 11/19/08 07:01 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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those look yummy man
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kergan
Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 1,195
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: 2859558484]
#9274237 - 11/19/08 07:07 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Some picts of the yellow pins.
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mushroomhunter10
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#9274250 - 11/19/08 07:09 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
I know somebody that needs prints of Amanitas
What are they going to do with the print?
Probably outdoor cultivation??? Not really sure. Just assuming.
-------------------- Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE. Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever! The U.S. Constitution! Best WBS Tek EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek MY TRADES
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canid
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: mushroomhunter10]
#9274351 - 11/19/08 07:21 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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that would be extremely difficult, given that these are micorrhizae.
-------------------- Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it. If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.
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weiliiiiiii
Stranger
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#9274425 - 11/19/08 07:29 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
I know somebody that needs prints of Amanitas
What are they going to do with the print?
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: mushroomhunter10]
#9274574 - 11/19/08 07:53 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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The name Amanita muscaria var. formasa is noman ambiguum.
Maybe we should vote on a nomen provisorium for our beloved PNW yellow.? I vote for Amanita muscaria var. rockefelleri
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: HerbBaker]
#9274608 - 11/19/08 08:01 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
warriorsoul said: The yellow ones are a yet to be named variation of muscaria.
All the others are flavivolvata.
I'm beginning to wonder whether "PNW yellow" is something of a misnomer, or whether there's three varieties up here.
The picture I've seen of the PNW yellow from Christian Raetsch's Encyclopedia of Psychoative plants is very very distinctly yellow. Like this color yellow. Not the slightest hint of orange to it. He also says it's supposed to be quite rare.
Meanwhile there seem to be two other different sorts of muscaria, one with the typical coloring of var. flavivolvata, and the other with a coloring more reminiscent of var. persicina or var. guessowii. While these latter are definitely yellow-orange, it seems like a stretch to really call them yellow. Even that really pale specimen I posted seems more like a faded peach-color than yellow. Both of these sorts of fly agarics are quite common in this area (and the guessowii-like ones are apparently present at least as far south as Eugene and as far north as Seattle).
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mushroomhunter10
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Entropymancer]
#9274791 - 11/19/08 08:33 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think if you spread the mycelium around its natural habitat it would take off and grow within two seasons.
Sure it's difficult, but I'm sure it can be accomplished.
-------------------- Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE. Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever! The U.S. Constitution! Best WBS Tek EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek MY TRADES
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Entropymancer]
#9274819 - 11/19/08 08:37 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not familiar with Raetsch's pics but Dna testing has only shown two species there..
The young specimen you posted a pic of is not indicative of flavivolvata. All solid yellow muscaria represent the PNW yellow variation.
Flavivolvata can be orange or red fading to pale yellowish with a darker center in age or fading evenly throughout the cap.
Seeing the young specimen makes it easier to differentiate between the two species.
The pnw yellow should also have white veil remnants not yellowish when very young.
Kergan's pics look like persicina, if he's in the PNW than the range of persicina likely extends much further than thought. But even then its still a variation of flavivolvata.
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weiliiiiiii
Stranger
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: HerbBaker]
#9275037 - 11/19/08 09:17 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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This thread is awesome, i love to see pictures of all the muscaria variations/sub-species
Edited by weiliiiiiii (11/19/08 09:25 PM)
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kergan
Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 1,195
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: weiliiiiiii]
#9275382 - 11/19/08 10:12 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: HerbBaker]
#9276136 - 11/20/08 12:03 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
warriorsoul said: Dna testing has only shown two species there...
That's just in reference to clades though, correct? The PNW yellow belongs to one of the Eurasian clades, while the rest belong to the North American clade (which will become Amanita flavivolvata).
It just seems like there's two common morphological variants present in the PNW that aren't really yellow; both could be flavivolvata varieties. I'll have to start paying closer attention and examining them at several points throughout the lifecycle, and see if I can elaborate more clearly on the differences. One seems like the flavivolvata variety that's currently known as A muscaria var. flavivolvata, while the other seems to bear more resemblance to the flavivolvata variety currently known as A muscaria var. guessowii.
This overview of Toxic Fungi of the Pacific Northwest mentions that the guessowii variety occurs in the PNW, but doesn't provide a source for the statement. Since they also state the Amanita muscaria var. muscaria occurs as far south as Northern California, that makes me suspicious of the accuracy of his information.
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Entropymancer]
#9276346 - 11/20/08 12:41 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hmm, then again Amanita muscaria var. formosa is known as "yellow fly agaric", and it's yellow-orange like var. guessowii. Maybe "PNW yellow" actually refers to formosa-colored fly agarics from the PNW? You said that the pic I posted of the mushroom in its universal veil isn't indicative of flavivolvata, and from the bit of cap that's peaking through, I'm pretty confident it's one of the guessowii-looking ones that's yellow-orange from the minute it drops its universal veil. Maybe these are PNW yellows, and they're just not as rare as I'd been anticipating?
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Entropymancer]
#9276524 - 11/20/08 01:24 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have seen some of the flavivolvata that look like guessowii, the colors tend to fade in the sun.
I suppose its possible their is another variation, you'd have to document the phenotype through its life cycle, without the sun fading it.
Typically guessowii in the east have a slighty darker orangish color towards the center of the disc but not always.
The species name Amanita muscaria var. formosa is now obsolete (nomen ambiguum) because it represents a polymorphism. (The name has been used interchangeably within all three clades for the solid yellow-orange variation)
The American variation guessowii and persicina, are by definition geographically disjunct from the other clades, they represent both phenotypicaly unique and geographically unique variations safely within the north American flavivolvata clade.
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: HerbBaker]
#9276562 - 11/20/08 01:33 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
warriorsoul said: I have seen some of the flavivolvata that look like guessowii, the colors tend to fade in the sun.
Yeah, I've found specimens which I'm pretty confident are flavivolvata that resemble guessowii due to fading. The key difference between these and the other guessowii-like specimens I've been observing is that one is red or deep reddish-orange beneath the universal veil when very young, while the other is already yellowish-orange beneath the universal veil.
I'll be taking notes and pictures as the current crop of young Amanitas in my area develop (I'm fortunate in that both of these varieties are currently fruiting within walking distance of my home). Hopefully this will help to clarify things.
The explanation that I'm currently leaning towards is that the ones which are yellow-orange before having been exposed to sunlight are most likely the PNW yellow variety that comes from a Eurasian clade, while the ones that are red or deep red-orange before exposure to sunlight are typical flavivolvatas.
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cactu
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Entropymancer]
#9277101 - 11/20/08 07:30 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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men the variation you are see there i see here too, sometimes even in a single forest. we have the guessowii and persicina and the flavivolvata i have also notice some can come out with white warts or yellow when they are pins, we even have some white ones that maybe are the alba variety, aparently for my experience and what i have read . in every place there is a local variety or subvariety , of muscaria, it get bigger and bigger every year.this taxonomy complex
-------------------- cuando una rafaga del pensamiento nos pasa al lado se puede sentir que valio la pena haber vivido, y cuando ese pensamiento se convierte en sueño no paramos de soñar hasta realizarlo
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MisterMuscaria
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Entropymancer]
#9277113 - 11/20/08 07:34 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wow those are pretty!
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scatteredsun
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: MisterMuscaria]
#9277698 - 11/20/08 10:01 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I see these guys ALL the time! I wish I found as many cyans as I find AM.
actually, I like finding them, they're the neatest looking of the local mushrooms IMO. Found these just the other day.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: cactu]
#9277878 - 11/20/08 10:27 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Like cactu said, flavivolvata, perscini and guessowii overlap in Mexico, it was a likely point of diversification for flavivolvata, becoming the two eastern variations persicina and guessowii. The orange/red flavivolvata hasnt been shown to occur east of texas.
Its interesting that Mexico is also a large center of diversification for the Psilocybe species, this is partly caused by the unique environmental conditions of the rocky mountain range overlapping with the southern forest of the Appalachian mountains, this change in environmental conditions are reflected by the species.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: HerbBaker]
#9279399 - 11/20/08 03:28 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Someone figure this out. Amanita muscaria var. fuligineoverrucosa Neville, Poumarat & B. Clément (2002) Amanita muscaria var. heterochroma (S. Curreli) Contu (2000) Amanita muscaria var. inzengae Neville & Poumarat (2002) Amanita muscaria f. vaginata (Velen.) Neville & Poumarat (2002) Amanita muscaria f. guessowii (Veselý) Neville & Poumarat (2002) Amanita muscaria f. flavivolvata (Singer) Neville & Poumarat (2002) Amanita muscaria f. europaea Neville & Poumarat (2002) Amanita muscaria var. aureola Kalchbr. (1873)
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: HerbBaker]
#9279462 - 11/20/08 03:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Someone figure this out.
I want some of whatever Neville & Poumarat were smoking. That would help my understanding immensely.
Are you planning to get those papers?
I get stuff like that for $5 from my local library through interlibrary loan, its a lot more convenient than heading to the university biology library.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#9280775 - 11/20/08 06:32 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Funny stuff. Does anyone know if the various variations have had DNA analysis and/or breeding studies? It seems as if the morphology itself is rather suspect.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#9283547 - 11/21/08 05:37 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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What does the abbreviation f. stand for?
I think these names may have became obsolete before they ever when into use, it seems we would have heard of them by now? Amanita muscaria var. aureola is still used in europe. The others i can find little info on. The variations above appear to be European.
It hard to say exactly what Rod Tulloss is going to do, but clearly we need some answers. He doesnt seem to respond to my emails.
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: HerbBaker]
#9284060 - 11/21/08 09:25 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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The "f." stands for form, apparently:
Quote:
The hierarchy of taxa below the species level is: * subspecies (ssp./subsp.) * variety (var./v.) * subvariety (subvar.) * form (forma/f.) * group * cultivar
Seems kind of weird to apply a term that low on the heirarchy to flavivolvata
But damn that's a lot of different European forms/varieties! I wonder if they're really distinct, or if it's just a matter of slight phenotypic variation among populations as they become geographically more separated (resulting from things like the founder effect as the mushroom was initially propagated across the continent).
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Entropymancer]
#9287409 - 11/21/08 06:40 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have and am wondering the same thing. I'm much more a fan of breeding experiments to determine association ala BCS than anything else. Lineage means little to me. But, then again, I'm not some new kid on the block trying to make a mycological name for myself. Less ego and more science suits me just fine. If I had wanted a name, rest assured, I would have had one long before now.
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Pictures from an Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata hunt [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#9291138 - 11/22/08 11:47 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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So here's an update on the differences I've been observing between the typical flavivolvatas (I'll just write "typical flavs" for short) and the other, much lighter-colored specimens (I'll call them atypical PNWs for the moment). Sorry, no new pics, my friend borrowed my camera for "a day" and I still need to get it back.
The universal veil - Typical flavivolvatas have a yellow universal veil when they first emerge. This rapidly fades to white, regardless of rain or excessive sunlight (the fading occured very rapidly even on an overcast day in a specimen that was fully shaded under a dense coniferous shrub). By contrast, atypical PNWs have a very pale cream-colored universal veil when they first emerge. The only time that the veil yellows is when it rains (presumably due to pigments leeching from the cap?). The veil on typical flavs does not yellow when rained on.
Initial cap color - As I mentioned earlier, the trypical flavs have a bright red or orange-tinged red skin when they first emerge from the universal veil. Atypical PNWs have a yellow skin (sometimes slightly orange-tinted) on the majority of the cap; the middle is a bit darker, ranging from peach to light pink. This was the first difference I noticed that caused me to start differentiating between them.
Annulus and concentric rings - Typical flavs tend to have a yellow tint at the margin of the annulus and the concentric rings, particularly on the underside of each. I haven't noticed any such tint on the atypical PNWs. The placement of the annulus is different too. On atypical PNWs, the annulus always seems to be very low on the stipe, anywhere from just above the concentric rings, to maybe 1/3 of the way up the stipe. On typical flavs, the annulus is always on the top half of the stipe, usually about 2/3 of the way up. In the specimens I've observed, the annulus on the atypical PNW tends to be thinner/weaker, and smaller than the annulus on the typical flav.
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