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Designing A Mixing Box For A "Clean Room" (Air Filtration/Ventilation)
    #9195580 -

This issue I've come across is somewhat of a unique situation, and my attempts of finding anyone with experience with this kind of stuff has been futile, so, I come here.

If you'd like to take the time to read up on my entire project, you can read up on it here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/9152549/an/0/page/0 I'll be updating the thread as I construct the room with pictures, progress, and problems.

But, rather than waste your time on that, this is really all you need to know.

I'm building a sealed "clean room" that will contain space for 2-3 martha set-ups, and the other half of the room will have a work table so I can sit and handle innoculations/petri's within a glovebox.  And will contain plenty of overhead shelving to hold any supplies or spawn bags/jars.

The room's dimentions are: 6.5w x 7.5l x 7.5h (feet) And while empty contains 390 cubic feet of air.  If you did the math, that seems incorrect but only because I've rounded down to .5 feet, rather than describe the inches.

My issue is this:

This explains the situation, the main question can be found as you scroll down.

I'm designing a mixing box to help filter the air and introduce fresh air to the room.  Now, this is why this is a unique situation:

The FC's(4 tier greenhouse's) only contain about 18 cubic feet of air EMPTY), and if I have three of them, let's just round up to 60 cubic feet of air.  Now these greenhouses will get their rH and FAE via a bulk humidier, but... if the room was completely sealed the air within the room would eventually become co2 saturated.  So, ventilation and air filtration is required for this room, so the room environment can support the FC's.  This isn't an openly exposed room within a house, this room NEEDS to be sealed.

The room will have 4-6 mill plastic lining the walls with all seams and punctures sealed with gorrila tape, and a plastic inter-change chamber for the entrance.

Now, back to the air stuff, lets do the CFM math for FAE:

if we need 2-3 air exchange per hour, lets just say 2.

2 air exchanges X 60 cubic feet (FC's)
______________________________________
                60 minutes

=2 cfm requirements to support the FC's.

So basically, the room has a minimal need of 2 CFM ventilation to keep it like a normal room.

Since I'm going through the effort to ventilate this room, and the minimal CFM requirements are pretty low.  I'm wondering how extensively I should filter this room and/or if I should include a damper to turn it into a mixing box.

If I use a damper, that will ease temperature control of the room via recirculation. 

AND... that leads me to my real questions:

1. If the CFM requirements are so low, and I don't need a huge fan, or a huge filter, should I just HEPA the intake of this system?

2. If I'm gonna build a mixing box that will recirculate air, should I place a HEPA within the recirculation space of the mixing box?  This would mean the air within the room is constantly being HEPA'd and would make for an ultra clean environment?

3. If the recirculation is HEPA'd, would the room's internal CFM need to be higher to make the recirculation more effective?  Would 2 CFM, be effective at moving the air within the room enough?

Now, I know I can't just get an end result of 2 cfm within the room, it'll have to be higher/stronger than that.  5 CFM, 10?

Since the CFM requirements are pretty low, I'm wondering if this will allow me to use a smaller? cheaper? HEPA and would then be cost effective?  I'm mean, versus the air flow needed for a flowhood this would seem a lot cheaper?  I'm not a HVAC pro obviously, so I don't know if these considerations are gonna be worthwhile for this small room.  It would be nice, really really nice.  But, I'm not gonna go over-board with this project.  And if it seems worthwhile or I really can afford it, I can always modify the system in the future.

I'm planning to have this entire room finished with 3 anahalf weeks so, time is of the essence.

Note: If you'd like a diagram(better than the one I skimmed together in the other thread) I can create a nice clean one of the mixing box.

Thanks, I'd love your advice and/or criticism.


--------------------

200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were.
My Glovebox
Find a respected member of the community and study them.  I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more.
Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.

Edited by shroomzey (11/06/08 01:49 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Designing A Mixing Box For A "Clean Room" (Air Filtration/Ventilation) [Re: shroomzey]
    #9197224 -

Hi Shoomzey: I can see that you have put a fair amount of thought into this project Good for you, there are far to many just tell me what to do kind of people in this world and I can appreciate a free thinker/doer.

You will need an air flow turn over rate of at least ten times and hour and one fresh air exchange of one per hour. Plus I would use a HEPA filter fallowed by UV-C air treatment, this can be built into your air return mixer box. When I'm saying HEPA filter I mean the 95% central heat/AC type as they are a little cheaper to buy and replace, plus you don't need 99% filter for this and you can fabricate your own UV-C unit for under a $100.00 (a twin 36W lamp set up would cost about $25.00 per lamp, $30.00 for the ballast and $20.00 for miscellaneous parts, lamp bases, wire, metal fasteners, ext.. and for an one lamp unit subtract about 30%)

You may also want to consider a two seed motor on the blower ( a low speed for normal air recirculation and a high speed for when you open the door) so you can maintain pressure over in the room when the door is open. In any good clean room design you want the air pressure in the room to be a little higher than the out side so you are letting clean air escape instead of contaminated air in. In this case you would use a door switch and a two speed motor, you see this kind of set up some times on air curtains. The fresh air damper in the return mixer box should be weighted in such a way so at the normal air flow rates it closes to the desired mixing rate but can surge open when the blower is turned on to high. You would need to size your HEPA filter so it could handle the extra air surge with minimal loss in air flow.

I use an odd sized 40Gal glass aquarium as a sealed glove box/incubator unit but its main use is as an incubator. But I'm building a rather large laminar flow work station, 48" long X 24" high filter area with an 22" deep enclosed lighted work area with breath/sneeze guard at this time myself and would recommend at least a small 12" X 24" table top laminar flow unit for routine clean work.

I hope that my input is of help to you and I would like to see a detailed drawing of your air return mixer box. My E-mail address is listed.
Best Wishes: Hipster

Edited by CheeWiz (11/06/08 06:38 PM)

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Re: Designing A Mixing Box For A "Clean Room" (Air Filtration/Ventilation) [Re: CheeWiz]
    #9197430 -

Wow, Hipster, thank you so much for every bit of that information.  And yeah, I've been trying to research and educate myself on as much material as I can.  But, finding material related for a "do-it-your-selfer" has been very hard as the HVAC community is all professional and related to installation/repair work for residential and commercial work.  Not custom stuff.  Tonight I'm busy, but most likely late tonight I'll email you that diagram and if you'd like, feel free to give me any critique.  Again, many thanks.


--------------------

200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were.
My Glovebox
Find a respected member of the community and study them.  I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more.
Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.

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Re: Designing A Mixing Box For A "Clean Room" (Air Filtration/Ventilation) [Re: shroomzey]
    #9215356 -

i would also roll up or fold the plastic and staple together to improve seal i've done this in rooms to keep co2 in:crazy2:


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PROCRASTINATORS UNITE!!!!.......................................................tomorrow

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Re: Designing A Mixing Box For A "Clean Room" (Air Filtration/Ventilation) [Re: Mr.Winkie]
    #9217300 -

I didn't take the time to do the math for the blower size as it looks like you can figure that but here is how I would build such a filter system. I would recirculate as this will provide a cleaner environment. I would just use a furnace blower as they are strong and easy to find and you can find them with multiple speeds. Recirculating from near the floor is a good idea I believe as particles/contams fall to the floor. The recirculation valve would need to shut when the door opens as to create the room pressure you would want to push air out and not let contaminated air in. I would always recommend using a prefilter as they are cheap and it will extend the life of the HEPA.
The trick will be to get the recirculation duct set at the correct rate for your room. You can figure this by knowing how much air the blower moves and how much air the duct/valve will allow through it. The rest will be "new" air from outside the room. This type of setup will continuously filter the air in the room as well as bring in fresh air. This type of setup will allow you to have a clean work/grow space and allow you to control the amount of FAE in the area. You can set the blower to the speed you want and the recirculation as needed. You will also need an exhaust vent as well (not on diagram).

Here is a rough idea of what I am talking about. I hope this was what you were looking for. Sorry if I was way off and this doesn't help you at all.

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Re: Designing A Mixing Box For A "Clean Room" (Air Filtration/Ventilation) [Re: Fungalution]
    #9221554 -

Quote:
Recirculating from near the floor is a good idea I believe as particles/contams fall to the floor.


I remember reading somewhere... I believe on Paul Stamet's Fungi Perfecti site that 90% of contaminants are within the first foot off the floor.  Can anyone confirm that?  I mean, its on Stamet's site so how can it not, but I just wanna hear from you guys.  =)

If so I'll definitely have to move my recirculation duct entrance to the bottom of my floor.

And hipster, I've been quite busy lately, hopefully soon I'll be able to email you the diagram(s) I've been working on so far, at first I was gonna create a diagram graphic but to save time I'll just sketch and scan them.

Thanks for the input so far everyone.


--------------------

200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were.
My Glovebox
Find a respected member of the community and study them.  I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more.
Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.

Edited by shroomzey (11/10/08 11:36 PM)

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Re: Designing A Mixing Box For A "Clean Room" (Air Filtration/Ventilation) *DELETED* [Re: shroomzey]
    #9225645 -

Post deleted by lorbitherize

Reason for deletion: ...


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Re: Designing A Mixing Box For A "Clean Room" (Air Filtration/Ventilation) [Re: lorbitherize]
    #9228053 -

lorbitherize said:
One small suggestion - As long as you're at it,
see if you can get ahold of a high-voltage power
supply unit...  Like with stun-gun volts and
transform it into an ionizer.  The usefulness
of negative ions cannot be dismissed.


Hi: Adding an negative ionizer can be of use, but is greatly misunderstood by most. An ionizer is just half of an electro-static air filter. Both use a high positive voltage generator to a wire or pins, ext.; as the high positive voltage is forced into the emitter some electrons are emitted into the air. It's this static charge that inter acts with particulates in the air giving them a few extra electrons and imparting a charge them. There main selling point was the health benefits of breathing negative oxygen ions, but more on this a little later.

Negative ion generators were all the rave in the late 70's into the early 80's. The down side is that they were for the most part a mono-polar devices and would leave a lot of dirty fallout around them, so they lost favor with many people in spite of there claimed health benefits.

Electro-static air filters are bi-polar, they have a positive high voltage emitter like a negative ion generator plus a negatively charged collection plate or plates. This is how an ionic wind maker kits work and the Ionic Breezes. The air is given a static charge and is attracted to the negatively charged plates so you have air movement. These are passive unit, but if you can add a blower you have an active system like the Orick and other similar units or as in a heating/AC units. The plates can be removed and cleaned, which is a whole lot better than having to clean your walls and furniture all the time.

Now back to the whole negative ion thing. There is whats called reduction and oxidation potential. When some thing is oxidized it gives off electrons which can in turn ionize things, this can be found around water falls or the surf at the beach. These free electrons can react with the oxygen in the air to make so called negative oxygen ions that are supposed to make one feel better by braking down mono amine compounds via MAO faster. This works well in nature where water is involved and there is little ozone produced. That's why one of the best negative ion sources you can buy is an ultrasonic humidifier. When you try to do this with high voltage or as with lighting you end up making more ozone than you do negatively charged oxygen. A small amount of ozone in the air is not a bad thing and is some times added to the air at many gyms to help take the body odor smell out of the air, but to much can be a bad thing.

Thank You For Taking The Time To Read This; Hipster

Edited by CheeWiz (11/12/08 11:28 AM)

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Re: *DELETED* [Re: CheeWiz]
    #9232104 -

Post deleted by lorbitherize<p>Reason for deletion: ...

Edited by lorbitherize (12/23/08 01:57 PM)

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Re: [Re: lorbitherize]
    #9232382 -

Quote:
I'm building a sealed "clean room" that will contain space for 2-3 martha set-ups, and the other half of the room will have a work table so I can sit and handle innoculations/petri's within a glovebox.  And will contain plenty of overhead shelving to hold any supplies or spawn bags/jars.


Since spawn bags and marthas don't need to be in a clean room, I'd suggest putting them elsewhere than your sterile work space.  A major source of contaminants in petri dish and grain master work is trich outbreaks in fruiting chambers.  Separate the two, and just keep your clean work in the clean room.

Personally, unless you're going to be doing inoculations all day, every day, I wouldn't have a mixing unit.  For the once a week inoculation/sterile work routine, it's far easier to clean and filter a sealed room.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9263111 -

Well I use the term "clean room" loosely as it does not need HEPA quality air since it will be mostly housing FC's and lots of shelving for spawn and supplies, really it will house a little desk area that I can place a glovebox to do that kind of work.  My dilemma is that pretty much the entire cultivation process need to be contained in this room.  Which is why I'm considering a mixing unit.  Not for the sense of it being used to aid in temp, fresh air, AND rh stasis like a real fruiting room...but to aid with temp and fae only. I plan to have the room completely sealed which means the FC's will eat that oxygen up eventually.  And if I need to introduce fresh air into the room, and/or recirculate the air, why not filter it while I'm at it?


--------------------

200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were.
My Glovebox
Find a respected member of the community and study them.  I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more.
Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.

Edited by shroomzey (11/17/08 09:46 PM)

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Re: [Re: shroomzey]
    #9271594 -

I would agree with RR.  Just build a flow hood or small clean area to do your work.  It's easy enough to throw a cheap HEPA in the room to circulate and clean the air.

As far as air exchange you are talking about a lot of overkill.  You really don't need more than a handful of CFM for a room like that.  A lot of people throw out ridiculous figures about air exchange and completely disregard the actual amount of O2 that will actually be consumed.

For everyone that claims you need multiple air exchanges per hour there is someone else that does just fine with no active air exchange whatsoever.  Many people have pulled off monotubs (no air exchange) or used FCs with simple polyfilled (or micropore taped) holes in them.

So I wouldn't sweat the numbers.  If the air is comfortable to breathe it will be just fine.


-FF

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