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Offlinerushme99
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Registered: 11/18/08
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First time extraction DMT...Please help
    #9266829 - 11/18/08 06:03 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey people. This is first time doing an extraction using MHRB  . I understand the procedure and am confident in my ability to do it but I seem to get different results:
I got my MHRB  and I was skeptical about getting product from it so i did a crude quick extraction to see if it actually worked.
Extraction # 1 - I used the Lazy Mans Tek and used about 50gs of MHRB  . I didnt do much measuring (expect for pH  etc..) and in about 4 hours a got 0.01gs of product. So getting this product from an extraction method so quick caught my interest, so I wrote my own extraction tek (a combo of other teks i read) and tried to take my time to get more result. Problems listed at bottom of page!!!!!
Extraction # 2
- I Prepared 50g’s of mimosa inner root bark. Broke it up into a powder and placed in a stainless steel pot.
- Made a combination of vinegar and water; wanted the pH  to be around 4. Made enough to completely submerge the powder and leave it on simmer for an hour or so
- strain  using cotton cloth and coffee filter and squeeze excess juice out- Repeated two more times but left the extractions to simmer longer. #2) three hours #3) Overnight
- Placed all three combinations in a jug and left in the fridge over night (decant) - Re-strain  and throw out excess junk- Prepare to basify –
- made a combination of water and lye. Wanted to be a high pH  , around 13.5. I mixed 500 ml of water with 50 grams of lye.
- Placed the mimosa-acid solution in a jar which can be shaken. Slowly add lye-water mixture
- Shake and stirred gently for a minute
- Naptha  Extraction –
- Added 150ml of Naptha  to the now basified solution and shake gently for five minutes.
- left to sit on the table for AT LEAST 5 mins There was be a separation of the liquids…dark on the bottom, clear on the top.
- Used a turkey baster to get the clear separated from the dark layer. I kept the clear layer.
- Put the Naptha  layer in a evaporation pan to get product. (PS I evaporated outside cause of smell...approx temp -3 degrees Celsius)

~~~THE PROBLEM !!!!! ---->> I took my time and measured the pH  with and electronic reader and was precise in my measurements and I ONLY got 0.001gs again!!! I have seen some people get mass amounts of product from 50gs of MHRB  .
- I have a few suggestions of my own as to what might have gone wrong- Didnt use distilled water or vinegar (dont know if that would really make a difference)- I think my problem lies in my first few steps. I have seen lots of pics online, and when the lye-water (basified mix) is added to the water-vinegar (acidic mix) it turns cloudy and pink. When I added mine (i did it in SMALL amounts to reduce pH  spikes) there was no change at all. Additionally when I added the Naptha  there were no emulsions present almost an immediate separation. I know that when a high pH  is used there is little emulsions, but i didnt expect not to see any
If any one would be able to help I would be FOREVER in your debt lol. I jus cant seem to figure out my prob?


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Invisiblefireduck
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: rushme99]
    #9267607 - 11/18/08 07:46 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I'm not sure exactly what went wrong.  What was the pH of the solution after you added your lye water?  You might not have raised the solutions pH enough... 50 ml water + ?? ml vinegar + 50g lye... I don't know how much vinegar you have.

When you add the two together, it turns very cloudy for maybe a minute, but I don't think it looks pink.  It turns from dark purple->cloudy grey->clear dark black.  If you do it slow enough, you might miss the cloudy part, especially when working with small samples. 

I think ideally you would expect at least 300mg of DMT from 50g of root bark, up to 500mg if you are good.  I think you really rushed the extraction with the vinegar (some teks suggest you use up to 2-3 weeks to get all the DMT into the vinegar, but I think that is not so important if your material is powdered.)  Also, simply submerging the plant material is pretty skimpy on the vinegar proportion, however I'm not really sure how much you used, and right now I am operating on the assumption you might need more base which is not the case if you used very little vinegar.  Even if you left a bunch of DMT in the plant matter, something else must be going wrong because you would be getting at least a couple hundred milligrams from 50g of bark.


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Invisiblefireduck
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: fireduck]
    #9267623 - 11/18/08 07:48 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I can say this.. obviously using distilled water and vinegar must have it's advantages, but it is absolutely not the cause of your problem.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: rushme99]
    #9268382 - 11/18/08 09:38 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Did you swirl the naphtha and alkaline mimosa water together? Your post makes it sound like you just poured naphtha in and saw it immediately seperate, but doesn't indicate whether you swirled them together, or for how long th layers were mixed. Also, warm naphtha helps pull better.

And if you added the lye slowly, you should have seen the solution turn cloudy gray before it turned slippery black, like fireduck said. Sounds like you might need more lye.


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OfflineAlicedee25


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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9269772 - 11/19/08 12:58 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

warm naptha pulls as enthropymancer said. My first pull yielded nothing. My second with a warm pull gave me a little over a gram of white crystals.


--------------------
Here's Tom with the weather


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Offlinelastlokean
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: Alicedee25]
    #9270456 - 11/19/08 03:09 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Ive found let it sit for at least a few days(I waited a week), in all honesty pH is pretty damned important in an alkaline extraction, you should strongly consider investment in a digital pH meter(ebay,froogle, or a science supply store)  Yield is amazing if the pH is perfect.

...  Erowid is the God of most drug knowledge.

See
LINK


--------------------

Recipe:
How a Lokean makes chocolates

For a fully enclosed gh with a coolmist piped in, one may find that adding one of these to the opposite end as the intake will seriously help reduce pressure buildup and strain on the poor weak coolmist motor, while also dramatically improving fae without cutting polyfill stuffed slits all over the damn thing.  (That looks suspicious :smirk:)


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: lastlokean]
    #9270467 - 11/19/08 03:12 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

He has a digital pH meter, it doesn't seem to have done him much good. I can tell you from personal experience that if you're doing an acid/base extraction from MHRB, your eyes are the only pH meter you need.

Add strong lye solution until the solution turns an opaque slippery black/brown, saturate it with rocksalt, then extract away.

By the way the guide you linked to (QT's tek) is an atrocious piece of excrement. Several serious DMT extractors have repeatedly petitioned for its removal since it so often leads people astray, but erowid has turned a deaf ear.


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Offlinelastlokean
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: lastlokean]
    #9270501 - 11/19/08 03:22 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I eyeballed at first, however got a healthy yield improvement when actually using the pH meter, the vinegar being distilled wouldn't cause a problem other than impurities(increasing weight), however I recommend using Muratic acid(pool store strong acid)...

The problem is clear to me that he used a pH of 4 in the acidic water-vinegar solution, this is the problem.  A pH of 2 is optimal.


--------------------

Recipe:
How a Lokean makes chocolates

For a fully enclosed gh with a coolmist piped in, one may find that adding one of these to the opposite end as the intake will seriously help reduce pressure buildup and strain on the poor weak coolmist motor, while also dramatically improving fae without cutting polyfill stuffed slits all over the damn thing.  (That looks suspicious :smirk:)


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: lastlokean]
    #9271290 - 11/19/08 10:30 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

No dude, a pH of 2 is unnecessary. pH 4 will extract all the good you need. The extreme pH called for by earlier teks was to destroy skatole and prevent it from getting into your endproduct in the days before freeze-precipitation was common.

And with all due respect, while I don't doubt you saw yield improvements correlating with your beginning to accurately measure the pH, correlation does not imply causation. The potency of bark is so variable that it's really not possible to say that definitely was the deciding factor (unless you did at least 5-10 extractions on a single homogenous batch of powder, testing your carefully measured pH method against eyeballing it).


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Invisiblefireduck
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9271802 - 11/19/08 01:16 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Entropy, you are 100% right about that tek leading people astray!  I decided to use it my first time, but as I was getting through the tek I realized the guy who wrote it really had no clue what he was doing.  I ended up with some really bad emulsions following his tek, and the more I read it the more I realized that whoever wrote it may have had a decent science background (maybe!), but he was obviously not very experienced in the process.  His note as the bottom even contradict and show how bad the steps he tells people to use are.

I basically switched over to another tek in the middle of the process so I could learn from someone who had done the extraction more than twice.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: fireduck]
    #9271833 - 11/19/08 01:27 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If you don't mind, it might not be a bad idea to email sage@erowid.org and let them know that QT's tek almost ruined your first extraction. So many people have run into serious problem with his tek and ended up turning to messageboards for help fixing it... it really bothers me that erowid won't remove it, nor will they even flag it with a warning that the tek is outdated and ineffective. They just keep it up there, fucking up people's extractions.

I don't know that it'll do any good, as I know they've recieved plenty of similar complaints, but maybe if we keep them coming they'll eventually come to their senses.


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Invisiblefireduck
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9272136 - 11/19/08 02:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I sent sage an email that made some specific complaints about the tek, and a suggestion that it be taken down to save everyone some trouble.  Erowid is such a good site, I'm surprised they are not more responsive in taking down bad information once it gets posted.


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Offlinelastlokean
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: fireduck]
    #9274732 - 11/19/08 10:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

What exactly do you folks think is wrong with QTs tek, not to sound questioning but I have personally done a great deal of DMT experimentation and extraction (The tek seems strait up legit from personal experience.) 

The details on the tek are pretty much to full depth, so where exactly is the confusion/misleading step/s?  Follow the tek to a T and don't skimp with low quality materials, all will turn out well.

Just seems wrong to ambiguously call out a tek as 'misleading' without addressing what is misleading.  There will certainly be no loss of extracted material from a low pH.


--------------------

Recipe:
How a Lokean makes chocolates

For a fully enclosed gh with a coolmist piped in, one may find that adding one of these to the opposite end as the intake will seriously help reduce pressure buildup and strain on the poor weak coolmist motor, while also dramatically improving fae without cutting polyfill stuffed slits all over the damn thing.  (That looks suspicious :smirk:)


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Invisiblefireduck
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Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 231
Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: lastlokean]
    #9274861 - 11/19/08 10:44 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I do not want to say that the tek is broken, but it teaches very bad practices.  One example is from step 6, the defatting step.  "Cap the lid on Jar B and shake the contents vigorously for 20 minutes."

I followed these instructions... I shook that jar as hard as I could for 20 minutes.  I had emulsions that did not go away for 10 days.  Other teks tell you to stir gently or give you an idea on how to stop emulsions.  Again in step 9, we are told emulsions are just part of the process.  Look at his picture in step 9... it's 30% emulsion by volume.  No one with experience would do the extraction that way.  The basics are right but the technique is all wrong.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: lastlokean]
    #9274923 - 11/19/08 10:55 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Did you extract from Mimosa rootbark?

QT calls for basifying to pH 9, which is fine for some plant materials, but NOT mimosa rootbark (unless you're using cholorform or DCM as your solvent).  If you try to extract from a pH 9 MHRB solution using naphtha, you're entering emulsion city! And that emulsion is not going to break easily.

And it looks like he got confused on steps 7 and 8. What's the point of adding warm nonpolar solvent before you basify??? Sure warm solvent is good for extractions, but if you add it before you make your solution alkaline, then it's not going to be warm anymore once you've raised the pH so it's capable of pulling alkaloids. (And warm or not, wtf is the point of adding the nonpolar solvent before basifying in the first place? I just don't understand what he was thinking there)

On top of that, he calls for spending two whole weeks doing the acidic extraction! Why, I have no idea. That's something that can be done in a matter of hours on the stovetop.


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InvisibleBEEP
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9274966 - 11/19/08 11:04 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Entropymancer said:
Did you extract from Mimosa rootbark?

QT calls for basifying to pH 9, which is fine for some plant materials, but NOT mimosa rootbark (unless you're using cholorform or DCM as your solvent).  If you try to extract from a pH 9 MHRB solution using naphtha, you're entering emulsion city! And that emulsion is not going to break easily.

And it looks like he got confused on steps 7 and 8. What's the point of adding warm nonpolar solvent before you basify??? Sure warm solvent is good for extractions, but if you add it before you make your solution alkaline, then it's not going to be warm anymore once you've raised the pH so it's capable of pulling alkaloids. (And warm or not, wtf is the point of adding the nonpolar solvent before basifying in the first place? I just don't understand what he was thinking there)

On top of that, he calls for spending two whole weeks doing the acidic extraction! Why, I have no idea. That's something that can be done in a matter of hours on the stovetop.




why ask a question you know the answer to :tongue:

Quote:

warning that the tek is outdated and ineffective.





i was thinking, could it be something with how much heat was applied during the acid bath?


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: BEEP]
    #9274985 - 11/19/08 11:08 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I saw rushme's post over at Mycotopia. It turns out the problem was that he measured the pH of his alkaline water as being 13.5, then added it to his acidic water (rather than checking the pH of the final mixture). Since he added the lye solution slowly and never saw the gray phase form, it's almost certain that his final pH was just too low.


Edited by Entropymancer (11/19/08 11:13 PM)


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Invisiblefireduck
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Re: First time extraction DMT...Please help [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9275020 - 11/19/08 11:13 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yep all good complaints on the tek.  There is even a nice picture he has labeled as "Approximate Basification Color" with the solvent in there, so we know it's not just a misprint with 7 and 8, that is the way he does it.

I also spent a lot of time filtering my solution to get every last particle out of it, which is a royal waste of time.  There is no reason the solution needs to be particulate free.  Anyway, you can see that there are many reasons to call for this tek to be taken down.

I will admit that it does a good job of trying to explain the chemistry going on, and so reading it helped me understand other teks better.  It helped me to understand why it was so inferior.  Even so, the information on the chemistry is easy to research and if this paper is never too be seen again, nothing of value will be lost.

Thanks Entropy for the update on this guy... that was exactly what I said was the likely problem in my first post.  Go me.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Psychedelic Experience

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