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InvisibleUrb
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Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 42,693
Loc: WhoDat Nation
Cell Phone Safety
    #9262205 - 11/17/08 07:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Amongst friends there is always talk of cell phone security.

I'd like to know if anyone absolutely knows the difference between reality & paranoia.

A few questions.

1. Is it possible for big brother to listen in on me when the phone is on , but not in use?


2. How easy is it for B-B to locate me using A cell phone?

3. Is it true B-B can tap cell phones with out a warrant.

4. When my phone is setting next to a TV , sometimes the TV makes funny noises when someone is about to call. Sometimes for nothing. WTF?

Any experts on the subject , please discuss.


--------------------
Texas Honey Badger said:
I went to boys town in Nuevo Laredo when I was in my early ‘30s
There was a bunch of trannys even way back then
I paid probably $20 but I was so drunk I couldn’t get a hard on:faded:
-Whenever you hear 5 blasts from the emergency horn that’s the signal for a 30 minute buttfucking break-      Fiery said:
I wish I was a young sexy woman so I could have awesome sexy adventures all the time[/quote]
split_by_nine said:
i did the man bun.[/quote]
1234go said:
I don't have a dog. I can't stand em...They're needy animals for needy people.


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Invisiblemofo
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Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Urb]
    #9262262 - 11/17/08 07:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

From what I've heard, it is possible to activate the microphone in a cellphone (and on a PC for that matter) for eavesdropping purposes.  It's also possible to triangulate the location of a cellphone in relation to cell towers.  If the phone has GPS (a lot if not all the newer ones do) that data can also be intercepted and used to locate the phone.  And yes, they do tap lines without a warrant.  But for right now at least, you don't have to worry about any of this unless you're a terrorist.  None of these techniques are used for anything but national security, or in the case of locating the phone, for 911 calls.

I don't know why your phone makes the TV distort.  I've noticed mine does that too if left too close to my monitor.  Presumably EM interference.


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OfflineMHbound
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: mofo]
    #9262301 - 11/17/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

1.) They can possibly do it with access to the main network, but not someone just sitting in his room. I guess if you had bluetooth on they may could connect to it, and then find some magic way to listen, but they would have to be one smart son of a bitch.

2.) They probably can't, unless they pay for your phone they have services now that allow the owner of the phone to locate it if it has GPS.

3.) They can tap without a warrant, but one of the parties has to be aware and give consent from what I understand.

4.) Put your phone next to the radio...It does it quite often. It's just static. Your phone is constantly sending, and receiving information from the satellite. It may just be to get the location of the phone, or to get the signal strength or something...But it's not someone listening in.


--------------------


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InvisibleJ3illy
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Posts: 3,344
Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: MHbound]
    #9263878 - 11/18/08 12:00 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This is just paranoid thinking.  Why the hell would they want to listen to your cell phone calls?


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: J3illy]
    #9265432 - 11/18/08 11:26 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The old cell phones or mobile phones could be tapped by anyone with a receiver which could pick up the frequency. That was found to be legal. Now I believe it's encrypted, but not sure. Under bush jr they can do anything they like. They can bust into your home, place a bug and not tell you. They can take you to guantanamo if they really want to.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Urb]
    #9272399 - 11/19/08 02:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

1. Is it possible for big brother to listen in on me when the phone is on , but not in use?




Yes, this is done by coercing the cell phone company to send a malicious software update to your phone.  The software update turns on the microphone and sends audio all the time instead of only when you are making a call.  It has been used in the US against the mob, and word of this technique leaked out via the court records.

If you are far away from a cell phone tower, you will notice your phone getting real hot, even when it is not in use (and significant battery drain, like you are talking all day).  If you are near a cell phone tower the amount of power required to reach it will not noticeably warm the phone or put much drain on the battery.  You could also use a TV or radio as a RF monitor, your phone should only be sending short burts of RF energy when it isn't in use.  A TV or radio will work much better to detect transmissions if you are far from the tower, do these tests when you only have 1 or 2 bars of signal.

This method of eavesdropping is very rare.

Quote:

2. How easy is it for B-B to locate me using A cell phone?




Extremely easy.  All cell phone towers are required to have triangulation built in.  It works by measuring the time difference between when the signal arrives at each of the three antennas.  Even though the speed of light is fast and the antennas are only a few feet away its quite accurate, to within a hundred yards or less.  Records of all the places your phone goes (even if you are not making calls) are stored for many years and its easy for big brother to get ahold of them via a subpoena or national security letter.  They basically get a map that shows the date, time, exact location, direction and the speed of the phone.

One way to use this to big brothers disadvantage is to let someone borrow your phone (but tell them not to make or receive any calls) while you are out committing your crimes.  Later if they claim you were at the crime scene your lawyer can subpoena your cell phone records and "prove" that you weren't at the crime scene.

My friend had an arson attempt on his house a couple months ago (long story), the very first thing the cops did was pull the cell phone records from the suspect.  He had sent some goons to do the arson and was not nearby, however if he had done it himself and taken his phone with him he would be in jail now.

Quote:

3. Is it true B-B can tap cell phones with out a warrant.




Excellent question.  I think that the new wiretapping bill that passed a few months back and gave immunity to the telcos also said that they have to get a warrant from the FISA court to tap domestic calls. 

But it isn't a good idea to talk about anything illegal over the phone.  Text messages are 1000 times worse since they can be intercepted if either the sender or receiver is arrested with the phone.  I have never heard of anyone I know getting busted for talking about things on the cell phone, but its still not a good idea.  Of course higher level traffickers should never speak on the phone, they should use the internet and strong VPN encryption to encode VoIP.

Yesterday I was picking a massive patch of Psilocybe cyanescens and another shroomerite called me on the phone and started telling me all about his new grow.  I have asked him not to do this in the past but he keeps doing it.  I don't really like it but (apparently) its not likely to get him busted.

Quote:

4. When my phone is setting next to a TV , sometimes the TV makes funny noises when someone is about to call. Sometimes for nothing. WTF?




That is because the front end IF filter in your TV sucks and it isn't doing a good job of filtering out the cell phone frequencies from the TV frequencies.  TV's are often quite vulnerable to this because they must have very wideband receivers to get all the channels, so they can't just filter out most interference right off the bat.  Also if the phone is close to the TV the signal can be induced directly into various circuit boards, bypassing the front end filtering.

Its a great way to know when your phone is transmitting.  It should transmit when you make calls, receive calls, send text messages, and in short bursts randomly to let the tower know its still there.

Quote:

MHbound said: I guess if you had bluetooth on they may could connect to it, and then find some magic way to listen, but they would have to be one smart son of a bitch.




It is not done via bluetooth, its done via the regular data modem that your cell phone uses to get software updates from the cell phone network.  Of course its a good idea to turn off bluetooth if you aren't using it, but that is more for protection against hackers than feds.  The bluetooth hacking does work great and few people are immune, but it doesn't allow for firmware updates that would be required to create a "magic way to listen".

Quote:

MHbound said:  2.) They probably can't, unless they pay for your phone they have services now that allow the owner of the phone to locate it if it has GPS."




GPS is not required to track the exact location of every cell phone.  My phone does not have GPS on it, and once I was driving at 3am and saw a couch sitting in the middle of the freeway.  I called 911 on it and the lady who answered knew exactly where I was and told me to slow down (I was going 74 in a 65).  This was 7 years ago. 

Quote:

MHbound said: 3.) They can tap without a warrant, but one of the parties has to be aware and give consent from what I understand.




This has to do with people recording their own phone calls, I wouldn't call it tapping.  The law on this varies from state to state and its easy check the wiretapping laws in your state with a google search.  In some states both parties have to be aware, otherwise its felony wiretapping. 

Quote:

MHbound said: 4.) Put your phone next to the radio...It does it quite often. It's just static. Your phone is constantly sending, and receiving information from the satellite. It may just be to get the location of the phone, or to get the signal strength or something...But it's not someone listening in.




Static is a good way to describe it but the technical term is intermodulation.  Also your phone doesn't talk to satellites, it talks to cell phone towers which are only a mile or 2 away.  The towers are easy to spot because they have unique groups of three antennas.

Quote:

J3illy said: This is just paranoid thinking.  Why the hell would they want to listen to your cell phone calls?




Usually they do it for entertainment, a power trip or to find evidence of a crime.

From this article:

"Two former military intercept officers working for the National Security Agency say that government eavesdroppers have improperly listened in on the personal phone calls of hundreds of Americans living abroad, including foreign aid workers and U.S. military personnel in Iraq.

Occasionally, Mr. Faulk said, operators would stumble on what was described as "pillow talk" or "good phone sex" and couldn't wait to let their colleagues in on it."

Other articles on this incident mentioned that they recorded all the good phone sex and would trade the MP3's around the office.

Quote:

Stonehenge said: Now I believe it's encrypted, but not sure.




You are correct, CDMA and GSM are the standards that most peoples phones are on now, and the data is digitized and encrypted.  CDMA uses a 64 bit key, however several years back isreili researchers found that 48 bits of the 64 bit key can be determined, allowing CDMA to be cracked in well under a day.

GSM uses A5 encryption which was recently cracked and the calls can be decrypted in 5 minutes

In rural areas of the US, analog cell phones are _still_ in use and can be intercepted with a standard scanner.  They tried to make a law that the scanners aren't allowed to pick up cell phone frequencies, however you can just tune it to 21.4 Mhz above the call and listen to it anyway due to intermodulation (10.7 Mhz IF frequency times two).


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OfflineMHbound
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Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 6,512
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9272444 - 11/19/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

1. Is it possible for big brother to listen in on me when the phone is on , but not in use?




Yes, this is done by coercing the cell phone company to send a malicious software update to your phone.  The software update turns on the microphone and sends audio all the time instead of only when you are making a call.  It has been used in the US against the mob, and word of this technique leaked out via the court records.

If you are far away from a cell phone tower, you will notice your phone getting real hot, even when it is not in use (and significant battery drain, like you are talking all day).  If you are near a cell phone tower the amount of power required to reach it will not noticeably warm the phone or put much drain on the battery.  You could also use a TV or radio as a RF monitor, your phone should only be sending short burts of RF energy when it isn't in use.  A TV or radio will work much better to detect transmissions if you are far from the tower, do these tests when you only have 1 or 2 bars of signal.

This method of eavesdropping is very rare.

Quote:

2. How easy is it for B-B to locate me using A cell phone?




Extremely easy.  All cell phone towers are required to have triangulation built in.  It works by measuring the time difference between when the signal arrives at each of the three antennas.  Even though the speed of light is fast and the antennas are only a few feet away its quite accurate, to within a hundred yards or less.  Records of all the places your phone goes (even if you are not making calls) are stored for many years and its easy for big brother to get ahold of them via a subpoena or national security letter.  They basically get a map that shows the date, time, exact location, direction and the speed of the phone.

One way to use this to big brothers disadvantage is to let someone borrow your phone (but tell them not to make or receive any calls) while you are out committing your crimes.  Later if they claim you were at the crime scene your lawyer can subpoena your cell phone records and "prove" that you weren't at the crime scene.

My friend had an arson attempt on his house a couple months ago (long story), the very first thing the cops did was pull the cell phone records from the suspect.  He had sent some goons to do the arson and was not nearby, however if he had done it himself and taken his phone with him he would be in jail now.

Quote:

3. Is it true B-B can tap cell phones with out a warrant.




Excellent question.  I think that the new wiretapping bill that passed a few months back and gave immunity to the telcos also said that they have to get a warrant to tap domestic calls. 

But it isn't a good idea to talk about anything illegal over the phone.  Text messages are 1000 times worse since they can be intercepted if either the sender or receiver is arrested with the phone.  I have never heard of anyone I know getting busted for talking about things on the cell phone, but its still not a good idea.  Of course higher level traffickers should never speak on the phone, they should use the internet and strong VPN encryption to encode VoIP.

Yesterday I was picking a massive patch of Psilocybe cyanescens and another shroomerite called me on the phone and started telling me all about his new grow.  I have asked him not to do this in the past but he keeps doing it.  I don't really like it but (apparently) its not likely to get him busted.

Quote:

4. When my phone is setting next to a TV , sometimes the TV makes funny noises when someone is about to call. Sometimes for nothing. WTF?




That is because the front end IF filter in your TV sucks and it isn't doing a good job of filtering out the cell phone frequencies from the TV frequencies.  TV's are often quite vulnerable to this because they must have very wideband receivers to get all the channels, so they can't just filter out most interference right off the bat.  Also if the phone is close to the TV the signal can be induced directly into various circuit boards, bypassing the front end filtering.

Its a great way to know when your phone is transmitting.  It should transmit when you make calls, receive calls, send text messages, and in short bursts randomly to let the tower know its still there.

Quote:

MHbound said: I guess if you had bluetooth on they may could connect to it, and then find some magic way to listen, but they would have to be one smart son of a bitch.




It is not done via bluetooth, its done via the regular data modem that your cell phone uses to get software updates from the cell phone network.  Of course its a good idea to turn off bluetooth if you aren't using it, but that is more for protection against hackers than feds.  The bluetooth hacking does work great and few people are immune, but it doesn't allow for firmware updates that would be required to create a "magic way to listen".

Quote:

MHbound said:  2.) They probably can't, unless they pay for your phone they have services now that allow the owner of the phone to locate it if it has GPS."




GPS is not required to track the exact location of every cell phone.  My phone does not have GPS on it, and once I was driving at 3am and saw a couch sitting in the middle of the freeway.  I called 911 on it and the lady who answered knew exactly where I was and told me to slow down (I was going 74 in a 65).  This was 7 years ago. 

Quote:

MHbound said: 3.) They can tap without a warrant, but one of the parties has to be aware and give consent from what I understand.




This has to do with people recording their own phone calls, I wouldn't call it tapping.  The law on this varies from state to state and its easy check the wiretapping laws in your state with a google search.  In some states both parties have to be aware, otherwise its felony wiretapping. 

Quote:

MHbound said: 4.) Put your phone next to the radio...It does it quite often. It's just static. Your phone is constantly sending, and receiving information from the satellite. It may just be to get the location of the phone, or to get the signal strength or something...But it's not someone listening in.




Static is a good way to describe it but the technical term is intermodulation.  Also your phone doesn't talk to satellites, it talks to cell phone towers which are only a mile or 2 away.  The towers are easy to spot because they have unique groups of three antennas.




I wasn't aware of the new law, and from what I understood up until this law apparently one of the parties had to be aware unless they have a warrant of course.

Yea, this is true. They can use triangulation to track things as well, but I was just referring to the way that would be most likely these days. As most cell phones have it now days, and naturally they would use the easiest way to do it.

I wasn't aware of the companies being able to send the software like an update directly to your phone. If this is the case I recommend everyone get the new G1 I think it is by google that runs Linux, and you can get access to the root...Which from there you could probably disable anything they try to pull on you. If you have the knowledge of Linux that is.




--------------------


Edited by Alan Rockefeller (11/19/08 02:26 PM)


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: MHbound]
    #9272894 - 11/19/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> I wasn't aware of the companies being able to send the software like an update directly to your phone.

They sure can.  I've had to talk them through it a few times in the past to get my phone working again after repairs, etc..

Quote:

Records of all the places your phone goes (even if you are not making calls) are stored for many years and its easy for big brother to get ahold of them via a subpoena or national security letter.  They basically get a map that shows the date, time, exact location, direction and the speed of the phone.




Do you have any proof of this?  It sounds a little far-fetched.  They can probably look up in the records what cell you were in (tower you were using) at the time you made or received a call, but I'd be pretty surprised if they triangulated you constantly.

Then again I can turn the location function off on my phone, which Sprint claims must be on for fancy sprint services like driving directions.  Of course it doesn't work if you call 911.  Kind of makes you wonder.

One other thing...  I'm sick of people abusing the term GPS.  I have never seen a phone with an actual GPS chip in it.  Maybe they exist, but I've never seen one.  The phone company will claim the phone "has GPS" but they are just talking about their triangulation system.  It will not work if you are out of tower range or don't pay their bill, unlike real GPS.  We the taxpayers paid for those fucking satellites... maybe I'll sue them on behalf of the government. LOL

Another thing about turning the mic on... I doubt they can do it with the phone off.  They almost certainly have to wait for you to turn the phone on to send the update.  Then it can probably trick the phone user into thinking the phone is off when it's really still on.


-FF


--------------------
It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy

The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed

"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)

I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid


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OfflineMHbound
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: fastfred]
    #9272907 - 11/19/08 03:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well GPS software...Regardless it's the same thing. There are satellites in space tracing you just like they do with a GPS. It's pretty much the same thing.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: fastfred]
    #9273058 - 11/19/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Do you have any proof of this?  It sounds a little far-fetched.




It would be foolish not to track where the phone checks in from.  As long as the tower receiving the data bursts from the phone it knows the time differential between antennas, are you suggesting that they just throw away all that information?  The government/corporations found a great way to install electronic tracking devices on nearly every person and even get them to pay for it.

They use this functionality all the time to find missing people.  When a family gets lost in the snow they don't have just the location of the last call they made, they know exactly where that phone is or where it left the service area, and they don't have any trouble getting that data after the fact. 

Or the arson investigation I mentioned in my previous post, the cops aren't checking to see if the suspected arsonist made any calls right from the spot where he did it.  They checked to see where his phone was when the fire started. 

They do it all the time, its the most routine thing in the world for law enforcement.


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OfflineMHbound
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9273121 - 11/19/08 04:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

They do check. I know this because on survivorman he says to turn off your phone if lost in the woods, and only turn it on at high points where there is a signal so that they can log where you are.

Not that he is all knowing, but I assume he did his research before that. Also, I know this from police shows where they aren't tracking it, but they ask the company where is the last place the phone was tracked or whatever...And they are able to tell them.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Urb]
    #9273190 - 11/19/08 04:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Just use codewords like "yard waste" and "lowry's seasoning salt" and "fire hydrants" and "rabid badgers".

Example:

You: I've got 10 kilos of "Lowry's seasoning salt" for sale at 50,000 "fire hydrants" per kilo.

or

You:  I can do a pound of "yard waste" for 1,000 "fire hydrants" and 5 "rabid badgers".


LULZ, sry not constructive.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: MHbound]
    #9273192 - 11/19/08 04:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

As long as the tower receiving the data bursts from the phone it knows the time differential between antennas, are you suggesting that they just throw away all that information?




Are you suggesting that they store terabytes of data just to piss people off and kiss BB's ass?

Companies don't usually waste money to do something that would really piss their customers off.

Quote:

They do check. I know this because on survivorman he says to turn off your phone if lost in the woods, and only turn it on at high points where there is a signal so that they can log where you are.

Not that he is all knowing, but I assume he did his research before that.




That's just common sense... No research involved.  Obviously you'd want to turn your phone off until you can get to a place with signal.  It's not for BB to track you it's so you have enough juice left to call for help.

Bogus police shows aside, does anyone have actual proof of this practice?  Last time I called to have them locate my phone they told me it was no good if the battery had died.  That wouldn't be the case if they actually do what you say.


-FF


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OfflineMHbound
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: fastfred]
    #9273311 - 11/19/08 04:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well, yea it's so you can call for help, but it isn't like in the middle of the woods you can be like:

Oh hey guys I'm out here by the big pine tree on the corner of Green ST, and 5th Avenue.

It's so they can track your location by whatever methods they use.

They can locate it, but not with the battery dead. It has to be in use. My sister is a police officer, and her husband works for some special task deal. I can ask them, but I assure you they can do it. They wouldn't go through the trouble for a lost phone though. I mean...Do you know how many times they would be tracking a lost cellphone a day??? Thousands.


--------------------


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: MHbound]
    #9273426 - 11/19/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

They do check. I know this because on survivorman he says to turn off your phone if lost in the woods, and only turn it on at high points where there is a signal so that they can log where you are.




That is great advice.

Quote:

Also, I know this from police shows where they aren't tracking it, but they ask the company where is the last place the phone was tracked or whatever...And they are able to tell them.




Yep, its the first thing they do when a kidnapping is reported.  Works even if the victim is unconscious. 


Another thing that everyone should be aware of is the 2007 wiretap report.  The US government is required to make this public report every year that summarizes wiretap activity. 

Its really interesting stuff - In 2007, the government did 2208 wiretaps, most were at the state level but  457 of those were done by the feds.  These wiretaps resulted in 920 incriminating intercepts.  They only tapped 27 landline phones, compared with 2080 cell phone taps, 7 business phone taps and 21 roving wiretaps.

The taps are used much more often in certain places (some police departments respect your privacy and appear to function on a complaint driven basis while others look for excuses to get you).    In my county, there was only one legit wiretap all year, and it was for narcotics.  In Los Angeles (a bit to the south) there were 291 wiretaps over the same period.  Every county that installed any wiretaps is listed in the pdf, its great data.

The wiretaps were issued for the following reasons:

Conspiracy (26)
Corruption (32)
Gambling (55)
Homicide and Assault (132)
Kidnapping (7)
Larceny, Theft, and Robbery (36)
Racketeering (98)
Narcotics (1792)
Bribery (1)
Extortion (5)
Explosives, Arson and Weapons (4)
Other (30)

Good to see that they have their priorities straight.  :rolleyes:

The average cost to the taxpayer, per wiretap is $48,477.  The costs range from $700 to almost a million dollars per tap, much of the cost is the hours spending transcribing the conversations. 

In 2007 the government used hidden microphones to conduct 20 wiretaps, did 15 internet wiretaps and 1998 phone wiretaps, resulting in 4830 arrests and a projected 2400 convictions.  For the past ten years the conviction rate has remained stable at around 50% after a wiretap is granted.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: MHbound]
    #9273475 - 11/19/08 05:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Alan, I want to commend you on some excellent posts in this thread. You have shown knowledge of encryption, legal principles, and electronics. I'm not saying every word is gospel, but give credit where it's due. I know enough about some of those things to know you are right or most likely right.

I do have to question the fact that they would store all that info for years. For a while maybe, but it costs money to store stuff and I'm pretty sure there is a limit on it. Maybe a couple weeks, or a couple months. We don't know for sure but the amount of data would have to be enormous and even more so with millions of users. Now if you are talking about records of what calls were made and when, then you may be right about a longer retention time. But all that triangulating data and so on, that just gets really massive.


--------------------
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Stonehenge]
    #9273788 - 11/19/08 06:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It does, but today storing data is so cheap. Think about it I can go out, and get a 1 TB(terabye) HDD for a few hundred dollars. I would imagine they could get a much better deal on it since they would be buying much much more.

The pentagon actually logs what people search. They search for key words, and if you type in something like bomb making then you are logged. I have yet to figure out if this is fully true, however, I bet it is.

I also, while in college, took a teacher that had previously worked for VOIP, and he said that they actually recorded phone calls. He said he would walk in to a room about 200 ft X 200 ft??? I'm trying to estimate the size of our room at the time. Anyway, he said he would have to go in to change a HDD, and there would be thousands of them.

Does this stand true for our regular phone service?? I really don't know, but I know this guy well enough to know he wouldn't lie about something like this.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9273797 - 11/19/08 06:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

They do check. I know this because on survivorman he says to turn off your phone if lost in the woods, and only turn it on at high points where there is a signal so that they can log where you are.




That is great advice.

Quote:

Also, I know this from police shows where they aren't tracking it, but they ask the company where is the last place the phone was tracked or whatever...And they are able to tell them.




Yep, its the first thing they do when a kidnapping is reported.  Works even if the victim is unconscious. 


Another thing that everyone should be aware of is the 2007 wiretap report.  The US government is required to make this public report every year that summarizes wiretap activity. 

Its really interesting stuff - In 2007, the government did 2208 wiretaps, most were at the state level but  457 of those were done by the feds.  These wiretaps resulted in 920 incriminating intercepts.  They only tapped 27 landline phones, compared with 2080 cell phone taps, 7 business phone taps and 21 roving wiretaps.

The taps are used much more often in certain places (some police departments respect your privacy and appear to function on a complaint driven basis while others look for excuses to get you).    In my county, there was only one legit wiretap all year, and it was for narcotics.  In Los Angeles (a bit to the south) there were 291 wiretaps over the same period.  Every county that installed any wiretaps is listed in the pdf, its great data.

The wiretaps were issued for the following reasons:

Conspiracy (26)
Corruption (32)
Gambling (55)
Homicide and Assault (132)
Kidnapping (7)
Larceny, Theft, and Robbery (36)
Racketeering (98)
Narcotics (1792)
Bribery (1)
Extortion (5)
Explosives, Arson and Weapons (4)
Other (30)

Good to see that they have their priorities straight.  :rolleyes:

The average cost to the taxpayer, per wiretap is $48,477.  The costs range from $700 to almost a million dollars per tap, much of the cost is the hours spending transcribing the conversations. 

In 2007 the government used hidden microphones to conduct 20 wiretaps, did 15 internet wiretaps and 1998 phone wiretaps, resulting in 4830 arrests and a projected 2400 convictions.  For the past ten years the conviction rate has remained stable at around 50% after a wiretap is granted.




Out of the thousands of kidnapping cases you would think they would tap more than 7, but for narcotics they had no trouble tapping 1700+...And I would imagine that's probably not the whole truth. There were more done that were against regulations, but as always they got away with it.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Urb]
    #9275452 - 11/19/08 10:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:tunnel:


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9276627 - 11/20/08 01:55 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Of course higher level traffickers should never speak on the phone,




So true.  I kno this kid that was recently busted for conspiracy to violate drug-laws - specifically, to distribute 30kg of Ketamine!  They didn't get him w/ a single gram, but they'd built a case on him for over a year w/ ALL his cell-phone conversations, and video evidence as well.  He lucked out BIG time cuz he ended up spending a LOT on a lawyer - the best, most expensive 1 he could find for over $50K.  The lawyer ended up getting his sentence knocked down to 1 year HOUSE-ARREST!  There's gonna be a ton of probation, comm. service, fines, etc - but that was a HUGE break.  The only thing that made this possible is the fact that Ketamine is not a Schedule I drug - it's actually Schedule III, which is much less severe than weed! It's nuts, but it's because Ketamine has perfectly legitimate medical use as an anaesthetic. 

The conspiracy to violate drug laws charge is no joke, and they don't need a single spec of drugs.  They can build an entire case on you without it, w/ phone calls being a HUGE part of it.  And don't just think you can get a prepaid either, because once they know it's YOU who's talking, you're still fucked.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: J3illy]
    #9278929 - 11/20/08 02:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

MH, yes it can be done in theory. But, they do it on certain select ones, not every single bit of data. We are not talking about a few terrabytes, we are talking about lots of terrabytes every single day for each phone provider. They are all under financial pressure right now and can not afford to do it. Even the government can not afford to record every phone call and email. They do look for keywords and try to focus in on likely suspects. That is not the same as storing all that data. Even Warren Buffet might go broke trying to do that. But be careful what you say.

Just my opinion.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Stonehenge]
    #9279865 - 11/20/08 04:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

We are not talking about a few terrabytes, we are talking about lots of terrabytes every single day for each phone provider.




I think it is both possible and practical to record the locations of all phones at all times and the cost could easily be covered by the price of your cell phone bill, but I am going to refrain from speculating further until I get the real answer from someone in the industry.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9280743 - 11/20/08 06:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

don't forget too that the nsa has their own little locked server room at every single telecom company.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: mofo]
    #9296386 - 11/23/08 09:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

~
    1. Is it possible for big brother to listen in on me when the phone is on , but not in use?



Yes, this is done by coercing the cell phone company to send a malicious software update to your phone.  The software update turns on the microphone and sends audio all the time instead of only when you are making a call.  It has been used in the US against the mob, and word of this technique leaked out via the court records.

~If you are far away from a cell phone tower, you will notice your phone getting real hot, even when it is not in use (and significant battery drain, like you are talking all day).  If you are near a cell phone tower the amount of power required to reach it will not noticeably warm the phone or put much drain on the battery.  You could also use a TV or radio as a RF monitor, your phone should only be sending short burts of RF energy when it isn't in use.  A TV or radio will work much better to detect transmissions if you are far from the tower, do these tests when you only have 1 or 2 bars of signal.~




Is this supposed to be a way to test your phone?


--------------------
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Urb]
    #9297424 - 11/23/08 01:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

They may save data such as what calls were made, at what time and from where. They probably save that for some time like a month, maybe longer. To save all data like where the phone was at every instant during the day when no calls are made or received, no way. There is no legal requirement for it and it costs money. Even if it means they have to charge a couple dollars more a month, that is a big difference and could put a company out of business. No way will they save that data any longer than they have to in order to do business. That's my opinion.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Stonehenge]
    #9297461 - 11/23/08 01:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

you guys are forgetting that this information would most likely be saved in the form of raw data logs.  This would be a very memory-efficient way of storing the data, probably amounting to less than a megabyte per person per year.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: mofo]
    #9297548 - 11/23/08 02:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You're talking about the log/length/location of all calls made, right?  If so, yea maybe.

But the actual audio of all the calls would be a helluva lot more than that.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: J3illy]
    #9297769 - 11/23/08 02:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, thats as much as the phone companies would store for data.  supposedly the nsa records and analyzes audio, but thats done using black budget super computers that are probably powerful beyond anything you can even imagine.  In that case, they could probably anaylze the data electonically fast enough that only audio relevant to nat'l security would need to be saved.  Or perhaps they use voice recognition software to translate conversations into plain text files for easy storage.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: mofo]
    #9360674 - 12/03/08 06:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think your tinfoil hats are getting a little too much use.

It's rather obvious that they don't track all cellphones at all times.  If they did then there would be almost no unsolved crime anymore.  If it was as easy as calling the telcom and asking who was in a certain area during a certain time then it would be trivial to solve at least 75% of the crime in this country. 

Obviously that hasn't happened.  In fact I've never heard of a single instance where they were able to go back in time to see where a cell phone was.  They always just get the current location.  If they could get more data than that then obviously it would show up in court records as evidence.

About a year ago some guy murdered this other dude in my town.  They had no leads, but checked his phone records, found who called him last, then located that person by their cellphone.  Eventually they found evidence on him, but if they could have then they certainly would have gotten a log of his location for the entire time frame rather than just where he was at the moment.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: fastfred]
    #9360684 - 12/03/08 06:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

They can't track a cell phone...Well that can...To a certain location really, but they can keep the general area of it. So, if there was a murder in this location it would show thousands of phones.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: MHbound]
    #9363436 - 12/04/08 02:11 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Cell phone companies are able to log every number you dial and text. This type of data would outweigh location data by tons.


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Edited by tak (12/04/08 02:13 AM)


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InvisibleJ3illy
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: tak]
    #9363459 - 12/04/08 02:20 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yea but the location data can prove alot more, as far as a crime goes.  You just calling a number can only prove so much, but if they know WHERE you were at the time of the call, that says alot more - for example if they were looking at you for a robbery or murder.  It would basically prove where you were at a certain time.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: fastfred]
    #9363465 - 12/04/08 02:23 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:

Obviously that hasn't happened.  In fact I've never heard of a single instance where they were able to go back in time to see where a cell phone was.  They always just get the current location.  If they could get more data than that then obviously it would show up in court records as evidence.


-FF





Cell Phone Pings Help Track Casey Anthony's Movements Over 3 Days


http://www.local6.com/news/17874799/detail.html


Quote:


According to records, Anthony's cell phone "pinged" 20 different cell towers 754 times in the two-week period.

Casey's cell phone communicated that afternoon through the same three cell towers she could reach from her home,"

At 1 p.m., Anthony made a 14-minute call to her boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro. At 1:44 p.m., she made a 36-minute call to her then-best friend, Amy Huizenga. At 2:52 p.m., there was an 11-minute call with ex-fiance Jesse Grund. All of the calls used cell towers that can be reached from her parents' home,

at 4:11 p.m., Anthony began trying to reach her mother, Cindy Anthony, making four attempts in two minutes, according to records.

At 5:20 p.m., a tower was pinged near Blanchard Park,

"It was then that Casey's phone pinged a cell tower near boyfriend Tony Laazaro's apartment,"

Anthony's phone later pinged a different spot near the Econ Trail, south of Lake Underhill, records show








Edited by Chemy (12/04/08 02:36 AM)


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InvisibleJ3illy
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Chemy]
    #9363497 - 12/04/08 02:33 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

^ Wow she is so fucking guilty.  And what really pisses me off is her total arrogance.  You can tell she's a real cunt - good thing she'll be locked up for the rest of her life. [hopefully]


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: J3illy]
    #9363994 - 12/04/08 06:57 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

She'll be out in a few years.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: MHbound]
    #9364164 - 12/04/08 07:57 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> Wow she is so fucking guilty.
> She'll be out in a few years.

Hard as it can be sometimes, I prefer to assume she is innocent until a jury decides otherwise.  The media cares about ratings, not justice, and demonizing somebody brings viewers.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Chemy]
    #9366106 - 12/04/08 02:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I'd assume they keep records of cell phone location for a certain amount of time, then dump the data.  This would be an efficient method, since most of the cases would relate to recent data.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Seuss]
    #9366637 - 12/04/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Wow she is so fucking guilty.
> She'll be out in a few years.

Hard as it can be sometimes, I prefer to assume she is innocent until a jury decides otherwise.  The media cares about ratings, not justice, and demonizing somebody brings viewers.




I know but the evidence is just staggering.  Her mother initially called the cops and said her trunk smelled like a dead-body.  They found traces of a decomposing body in the trunk, and also chloroform [which she had searched about online].  The day or day after the daughter went missing, she was renting a movie that depicted a dead, rotting corpse in a trunk.  It just doesn't add up and I can almost say that I KNOW she's guilty.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: J3illy]
    #9367180 - 12/04/08 05:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the story Chemy.  Looks like big brother is moving a lot faster than I thought.  At least crime will go down quite a bit in the near future.

Before too long it will probably be that almost all they need for a conviction is to prove that you turned your cell phone off during a critical time in an investigation.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: fastfred]
    #9370316 - 12/05/08 01:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I don't consider that moving too fast.

You are carrying a device around in your pocket that transmits voice, text, still image, and video wirelessly almost anywhere in the world. A device that can let anyone know where you are at any given time. A device that authorities can eavesdrop on without a warrant, without the phone having to even be powered on in some cases.

They've been around for quite a while. Some people just don't get it.

When I made a call to highway patrol using my girlfriends phone, they referred to me by my real name without knowing anything but the phone # and that it was a male's voice.

I try not to be over paranoid, but I also try to leave too much up to chance. I guess there are different breeds of people in this new cell phone era though.


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InvisibleJ3illy
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: tak]
    #9370416 - 12/05/08 02:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

tak said:
Quote:

authorities can eavesdrop on without a warrant, without the phone having to even be powered on in some cases.




What??  Do you have any proof of this?  Doesn't make sense IMO

Quote:

When I made a call to highway patrol using my girlfriends phone, they referred to me by my real name without knowing anything but the phone # and that it was a male's voice.




Huh?  Maybe if they KNEW your g/f and that you were her b/f, otherwise how could this be remotely possible?





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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: J3illy]
    #9370613 - 12/05/08 05:33 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

J3illy said:
What??  Do you have any proof of this?  Doesn't make sense IMO






This quote was taken from:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061203-8343.html

Not sure how reliable it is, but it was the first of 131,000 search results on google.

Quote:


Cell phones are capable of providing more information about us and our whereabouts than we usually realize. We familiar with the ability of cell phones to be used to track users' locations, but now the FBI has begun using them for eavesdropping—even when they are turned off.

The FBI's activities came to light in the course of the prosecution of two alleged members of the Genovese crime family. John Ardito and Peter Peluso had their Sprint Nextel phones tapped by the FBI in the course of their investigations, which itself is not unusual. The government went a step further in their case: not only were their phone calls recordded, but so were all conversations carried out in the presence of the defendants' cell phones.






Quote:

J3illy said:
Huh?  Maybe if they KNEW your g/f and that you were her b/f, otherwise how could this be remotely possible?





She doesn't know anyone who works there. But fuck man, your guess is as good as mine.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: tak]
    #9370623 - 12/05/08 05:41 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The FBI reported more than 100 possible violations to an intelligence oversight board over the past two years, including cases in which agents tapped the wrong telephone, intercepted the wrong e-mails or continued to listen to conversations after a warrant had expired, according to a report issued yesterday.

In one case, the FBI obtained the contents of 181 telephone calls rather than just the billing records to which it was entitled. In another, a communication was monitored for more than a year after eavesdropping should have ended -- although investigators blamed a third-party provider for the mix-up.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/08/AR2006030802132.html


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: tak]
    #9370751 - 12/05/08 07:01 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Caller ID?? :shrug:


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: MHbound]
    #9374706 - 12/05/08 06:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MHbound said:
Caller ID?? :shrug:



without knowing anything but the phone # and that it was a male's voice.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: tak]
    #9374751 - 12/05/08 06:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

tak said:
This quote was taken from:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061203-8343.html

Not sure how reliable it is, but it was the first of 131,000 search results on google.




Just read the story - they had "roving bugs" installed, which totally explains it - and although it claims that many phones can have these remotely activated, I just don't buy it.  A federal judge also had to authorize the whole thing.  The technology for this "roving bug", being able to transmit conversations when the phone is off, sounds advanced and expensive.  I doubt many phones have them - why would manufacturers spend extra money on them, ya kno?  I would like to see more info on it tho if it's out there.


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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: J3illy]
    #9375027 - 12/05/08 07:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

J3illy said:
Quote:

MHbound said:
Caller ID?? :shrug:



without knowing anything but the phone # and that it was a male's voice.




I can get your name, and often times address...Just with your phone number. It costs me a few dollars, but I would imagine the police etc have it for free. And probably have some type of caller id, but a little more advanced.

I could be wrong.


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OfflineHumility
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: MHbound]
    #9377438 - 12/06/08 05:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You're missing the point, it wasn't his phone he was calling from but rather his girlfriend's phone.

Depending on how regularly you use your girlfriend's phone (to order shit like food, or place reservations etc.) it *may* make sense for them to have your name in some sort of uber reverse-lookup directory but even then that's really odd and discomforting.

If you have never used her phone before or rarely use it then there must be something else going on.  G'luck with that m8.


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OfflineMHbound
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: Humility]
    #9377535 - 12/06/08 06:58 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Ohhhhhhh. He used his GF's phone, and they knew who he was. That is strange. I have no explanation there.


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Invisibletak
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: J3illy]
    #9383344 - 12/07/08 02:35 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I used her phone pretty frequently for stuff like that. Nothing official, but just random BS on occasion. This is how i figure they had it, but like you said still kinda freaky since its not really listed under my name, etc.


Quote:

J3illy said:
Just read the story - they had "roving bugs" installed, which totally explains it




From what I understand, a roving bug is nothing more than a name given to the process. It is not a piece of hardware installed on their phones or anything.

Quote:

J3illy said:
although it claims that many phones can have these remotely activated, I just don't buy it.



Not trying to be a dick, but what exactly do you not buy. This is fact, not opinion. If you are trying to close your eyes and pretend it can't happen because you don't want it to happen that is fine, but do so in the comfort of your own mind.

Quote:

J3illy said:
The technology for this "roving bug", being able to transmit conversations when the phone is off, sounds advanced and expensive.  I doubt many phones have them - why would manufacturers spend extra money on them, ya kno?  I would like to see more info on it tho if it's out there.




It doesn't sound advanced or expensive to me. I mean, yeah the phone's might be expensive, but its you and I who are buying them, not the government :grin:

Your phone is made to transmit voice via wireless signal, that is what a cell phone is. How can the phone being used for the same exact purpose be considered "Advanced?" The only thing that could be considered advanced is the feature known as speaker phone, which I guess allows the mic to pick up sounds from greater distance.

Quote:

J3illy said:
A federal judge also had to authorize the whole thing.




You do need a judge to sign off for this to happen, but as proven in the other post...it's not always the case. To think that big brother is not in with the telecommunication companies is silly. I mean come on, read the newspaper. There are countless whitsleblowers from these companies saying that the government is data mining vast amounts of all information passing through.


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Offlinemerzdiesler
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: J3illy]
    #9385346 - 12/07/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I used to be a military intelligence analyst. I can tell you beyond a reasonable doubt that big brother has both the capability and intent to listen in on you. Not only that, they can intercept your texts. There exists a software program that screens phone calls and texts for keywords. The keyword trigger will cause more of your communications to be intercepted. In addition, if you are caught doing something illegal, they could retrieve all of your communications to find your associates (think about Kwame Kilpatrick and countless others) We are talking about a government that spends in excess of $118 Billion a year to arrest and prosecute petty marijuana users. We are talking about a government that in 2006 told the United Nations that a "Drug Free" planet is in sight! They are out of control and my best advice would be to code word everything. Limit conversations on the phone to small sentences. You never know who is watching and listening. It may sound like paranoia, but a little paranoia will keep your ass out of the slammer! Good luck to everyone! Keep your eye on the prize. No government can rid the world of shrooms!


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OfflineMustNotBe
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: fastfred]
    #9386910 - 12/07/08 06:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Are you suggesting that they store terabytes of data just to piss people off and kiss BB's ass?




And your suggesting that they wouldn't spend $1000.00 on a 10 TB harddrive to do so.


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Junkies United we stand , Devided we're sick as fuck.
-                  -                -
"Hallucinations are something heroin users are not at all accustomed to," said Const. Conor King, Victoria police drug expert. "They react like you or I would react if we took Aspirin and all of a sudden the TV got up and started walking across the room."
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Make drugs legal, or alcohol and tobacco illegal. Either way it's more fair.


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OfflineMHbound
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: MustNotBe]
    #9387063 - 12/07/08 06:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yea...It really isn't that much money when you think about it. I have a couple of TB that I got for like a few hundred I don't remember anymore.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Cell Phone Safety [Re: tak]
    #9393185 - 12/08/08 03:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quote:

J3illy said:
The technology for this "roving bug", being able to transmit conversations when the phone is off, sounds advanced and expensive.  I doubt many phones have them - why would manufacturers spend extra money on them, ya kno?  I would like to see more info on it tho if it's out there.




Your phone is made to transmit voice via wireless signal, that is what a cell phone is. How can the phone being used for the same exact purpose be considered "Advanced?"





It is neither expensive or advanced, its just a software upgrade.  The telco can push new software on to your phone whenever they feel like it.


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