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Invisiblescout24
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: Veritas]
    #9245819 - 11/14/08 07:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
OK, so if a single person becomes intimidated from threats made to them over the internet, does this prove that it is unlikely not to happen?  :lol:




No.  What?  I guess I don't get it.  A single case cannot prove likelihood.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: scout24]
    #9245836 - 11/14/08 07:16 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

You just stated that the support for your assertion that intimidation absent a physical threat was "unlikely" was your personal experience (single case) of never becoming intimidated via the internet.

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Invisiblescout24
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: Veritas]
    #9245853 - 11/14/08 07:19 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, it's support, not proof.  The terms are not interchangeable.  :shrug:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: scout24]
    #9245869 - 11/14/08 07:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

OK, is a single case of someone becoming intimidated on the internet enough support for the argument that bullying via the internet is likely to occur?  If not, then your single case of NOT being intimidated via the internet is NOT support for your argument that bullying via the internet is NOT likely to occur.  :shrug:

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Invisiblescout24
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: Veritas]
    #9245916 - 11/14/08 07:29 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
OK, is a single case of someone becoming intimidated on the internet enough support for the argument that bullying via the internet is likely to occur?  If not, then your single case of NOT being intimidated via the internet is NOT support for your argument that bullying via the internet is NOT likely to occur.  :shrug:




Yes.  :shrug: :lol:

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Invisiblescout24
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: Veritas]
    #9245932 - 11/14/08 07:33 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
OK, is a single case of someone becoming intimidated on the internet enough support for the argument that bullying via the internet is likely to occur?  If not, then your single case of NOT being intimidated via the internet is NOT support for your argument that bullying via the internet is NOT likely to occur.  :shrug:




I'm sorry, ok?  Geez, you don't have to yell.  It's very intimidating, ok?

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: Ratci]
    #9246112 - 11/14/08 08:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ratci said:
But where does this desire come from?




I don't think that most people necessarily are mean to each other just because it makes them feel good.  Sometimes people are mean because they feel angry and being mean is a way of eliminating that sensation of angry pressure.  What 'letting off that steam' might produce satisfaction in some degree, I might not last long.  There could be prolonged feelings of regret after being mean.

Quote:

And why does it feel good to see that when you're mean to someone, or when you say mean things to them, that it affects them?




Well, it doesn't for me.  That's why I'm only mean online and not face to face.  I can't see your faces so I have only an abstract idea of when someone's feelings are hurt.  It's very different to be mean to someone in person.  Anyone who can make me yell at them to their face deserves a medal, because face-to-face, I just don't get angry.  I don't like seeing when I make people feel bad.  I think it's always going to depend on the person.  I like the short term release of anger, but my anger never usually builds up enough to want to yell or swear at a person face-to-face because I don't like seeing people's feelings hurt.  I hate making people cry.  When I deal with people face to face, my longer term strategy over-rides any anger I have and I stay calm.

Quote:

Where does the desire to separate ourselves from others who are different in such a way even come from?




Because you need to be able to evaluate people.  Even if judgement is tentative, you need to assess people.  People are different from you, so you need some way of labelling them.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: Ratci]
    #9247634 - 11/15/08 03:29 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ratci said:
Quote:

Innoculus said:
I suggest alcohol.  Maybe a benzo?  Overall I'd somewhat agree with MOTH,  but focused mainly on just chilling out.  Reactions are what they look for.  Don't feed the fire.  Ignore it and continue to post relevant information.  No one with any sort of reason will use anything you've done against you under those circumstances.




I really want to know what makes people want to hurt others emotionally




Hilarity...and threads like these.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" *DELETED* [Re: Plasmid]
    #9248301 - 11/15/08 10:03 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: f



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: deCypher]
    #9248403 - 11/15/08 10:27 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
A child that has been properly brought up should have learned how to deal with bullies, violence, and name-calling from their parents in the first place.  The avenue you're supporting leads to a sheltered child who must rely on civilized society to act as their cradle; would you rather we remain in the womb all our lives to avoid violence?  Things aren't as pretty out in the real world.




Obviously, parents should take responsibility in preparing children for the myriad of different circumstances they will find themselves in throughout the course of their life. At the same time, this doesn't mean that it is unnecessary for schools to start teaching children psychology and to help keep violence from occurring in the school, in addition to all the other ways schools teach children how to think, because violence in school is just something that is what it is and you just have to learn how to deal with it yourself.

I'm very curious what your conception of what constitutes "properly brought up" regarding bullies and violence. How should children be assuming responsibility for themselves in these situations? I'm looking for specifics here.


Quote:


Yes, I completely concur.  Where we differ is in the methodology for achieving this ultimate goal.  You would rather set up an authority to appeal to: an overarching ideology of zero tolerance for violence; a call for teachers to monitor the school yard for any signs of violence or slinging of insults.




Let's call the bullshit, brazen assumptions right now. I'd like for you to cite precisely what I stated in this thread which would suggest that I would rather "set up an authority to appeal to". You won't be able to do it because I never said anything that would remotely implicate otherwise. I personally feel that one area in which schools fail is that they do not show children paths that they can take with their own mind to better themselves and be more capable of being successful. A diploma doesn't mean anything if you don't understand this planet well enough to get yourself by. Honestly, though, I think the reason why schools are not really teaching things like critical thinking and perspective on the world and life is because a lot of people probably just aren't really developed in these areas to begin with, making it much harder to pass down to new generations.

Your argument quoted above and below only works if you are addressing the existence of public schools themselves. I can understand if you take issue with them on an ideological level, but within the context of a discussion about the reality in which public schools already do exist, your argument is largely irrelevant. Schools already teach children probably the majority of their understanding and usage of language itself, so I don't think it is any stretch to teach children more on how to use their minds. We just need enough teachers who themselves know how to do that. :tongue:

Quote:


I would rather let the problem be dealt with at an individual level--something that not only takes less away from our coffers in terms of setting up additional administration, bureacracy, and salaries to go with the policy that you suggest, but takes less away from our unalienable right of liberty.




The only ramifications of the policy that I personally suggest (a certain area of knowledge to be taught) would be things like more teachers and more of the organization that sits behind public schools. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing, especially as education becomes more of an issue due to necessity.

Quote:


Moreover, any political philosophy based on certain people watching others in hopes of preventing or deterring criminal actions inevitably begs the question: who is watching the watchers?  Not only does this breed paranoia and distrust of authority (which sometimes is needed for social cohesion), but it yields unrest and rebellion.  It is far better to treat the problem of violence, suffering, and evil at its root: the individual.




Maybe you could have posted this in your personal journal, because it seems like more of an unrelated tangent instead of a point relevant to this discussion. Where did I suggest that I was advocating school-police spying on children in schools? Nowhere.

Quote:


Different words, same meaning: let authority step into the situation and resolve matters.  Whether it's pre-emptive or after the fact doesn't matter when both actions abnegate personal responsibility.




I'm baffled as to how we are talking here about abnegating personal responsibility when the topic we are discussing is teaching children.
With this point of view, it would make more sense to send a six-year old out into the woods with a book and a gun in order for it to learn language and protect itself on its own. :rofl: :lol:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: scout24]
    #9248426 - 11/15/08 10:37 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

scout24 said:
Bullying involves intimidation, and that's nearly always physical.  Therefore, it's nearly impossible to bully someone over the internet.  I think you mistake teasing with bullying.  At any rate, keep in mind that valuable lessons can be taught through both teasing and bullying.




Yeah like how to hate.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9249233 - 11/15/08 01:24 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I'm very curious what your conception of what constitutes "properly brought up" regarding bullies and violence. How should children be assuming responsibility for themselves in these situations? I'm looking for specifics here.




In the case of name-calling or insults, the child should realize the cliched proverb that "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me."  The goal is for them to realize that one's personal emotional state is essentially independent of whatever someone else may say about them: if someone calls you a name, it's your choice whether or not to react in an angry fashion or feel hurt.  This is something that few of us use to its full potential; and the end-result would be a kid who's far more mature than his peers.

In the case of violence, the child should learn self-defense.  Not only does this empower the kid, but it gives them a fighting chance against the bully in a situation where the school will not be there to prevent bullying.  Monitoring for violence in the schoolyard is a good idea only insofar as the physical dimensions of the yard; all the bully has to do is wait till the child leaves to go home and then ambush him or her in a spot where the kid can't call for help from an outside source.  Learning to defend yourself in this way not only builds individual responsibility but also helps the kid in situations where the overarching eye of school authority cannot see.

Quote:

fireworks_god said: Your argument quoted above and below only works if you are addressing the existence of public schools themselves. I can understand if you take issue with them on an ideological level, but within the context of a discussion about the reality in which public schools already do exist, your argument is largely irrelevant.




The issue is simple: should we ban bullying in public schools, or should we not?  I fail to see how this is irrelevant to our current reality (even though it's admittedly unlikely that public schools would ever lift their current bans on bullying.)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Moreover, any political philosophy based on certain people watching others in hopes of preventing or deterring criminal actions inevitably begs the question: who is watching the watchers?  Not only does this breed paranoia and distrust of authority (which sometimes is needed for social cohesion), but it yields unrest and rebellion.  It is far better to treat the problem of violence, suffering, and evil at its root: the individual.




Maybe you could have posted this in your personal journal, because it seems like more of an unrelated tangent instead of a point relevant to this discussion. Where did I suggest that I was advocating school-police spying on children in schools? Nowhere.




Quote:

fireworks_god said: The schools are the government (which is the people :smirk:), and it only makes sense that it would be their responsibility to ensure a secure environment for children to learn in.




A secure environment implies that violence will not be tolerated within school.  To accomplish this we need teachers and/or monitors scanning the classroom and the schoolyard to prevent or deter criminal actions, unless you have in mind a futuristic society where we're implanted with mind-control chips to prevent us from commiting violence.  :confused:

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Different words, same meaning: let authority step into the situation and resolve matters.  Whether it's pre-emptive or after the fact doesn't matter when both actions abnegate personal responsibility.




I'm baffled as to how we are talking here about abnegating personal responsibility when the topic we are discussing is teaching children.
With this point of view, it would make more sense to send a six-year old out into the woods with a book and a gun in order for it to learn language and protect itself on its own. :rofl: :lol:




The issue at hand was whether or not schools should ban bullying--you're extending this into a discussion of learning valuable life skills.  Obviously schools are more beneficial than a book and a gun in the woods when it comes to the latter, but my point this entire time has been that if parents raise their children properly, schools won't need to ban bullying: either the child will have been raised to respect their peers and not violate other's personal spaces by their parents, or in case of the child being bullied, he will have been raised to properly defend himself and remain stoic to name-calling (both character-building experiences) without having to helplessly call the aid of authority as embodied in a teacher.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: deCypher]
    #9249397 - 11/15/08 01:52 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Since highschool, I often wonder what happened to the bullies. Not the actual bullies of highschool, but I know that these frustrations don't simply disapeer. Who are the bullies in my world?

With all this discussion concerning personalisms lately, how does this relate to the outwardly profane? This is really interesting to me... Reminds me of one of the more disturbing bullies:




"Fuck you, you fucking fuck!"

(David Lynch's Blue Velvet)


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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #9250001 - 11/15/08 03:38 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

I can't see your faces so I have only an abstract idea of when someone's feelings are hurt.




Similar to a firing squad where some are given real bullets and some blanks and the "firee" has a hood covering their face.  Makes the executionists feel better not having to see who they killed and giving them hope their gun had a blank.




I think that a person has to learn how to be able to be violent or cruel and deal with those feelings.  Most people are empathetic and sympathetic.  I recall hearing about a meeting between Heinrich Himmler and some high-ranking officer in charge of the Einsatzgruppen (firing squads assigned to killing Jews prior to operation of death camps). The officer told Himmler that the method of killing was internally destroying the men, because they literally had to line up civilians (men, women, children) and shoot them at point blank range.  The officer said something like, "Look in these mens' eyes.  They're done for life.  You don't want to found a civilization with people like this."

The firing sqaud soldiers often dealt with it by actively trying to dehumanize their victims.  For example, photographs of these soldiers standing by piles of bodies were circulated (they weren't supposed to of course).  The soldiers look like they're mocking British hunters, standing in front of a pile of human bodies as though they'd gone hunter and here's their score behind them.  They were trying to dehumanize people by using humour - the humour was an effect of the violence, an attempt to deal with it (I believe) and not the result of prior sadistic tendencies.

Then look at how mass murder was carried out once the camps were turned into factories of mass murder: much of it was done in a disconnected way.  The people leading the victims into the chambers were other Jews (Sonderkommando).  The soldiers who dropped cyanide salt into the gas chambers didn't even have to see their victims.  They pulled up into a truck and dropped the cyanide through a little portal.  Now, of course, some people are sadistic, but I think people have to work at dehumanising other people.  I think most people find committing an act of violence quite upsetting.  Most people find it upsetting to see someone hurt by accident.

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OfflineLndrydusting
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Re: On the subject of human hatred/ bullies/ "meanness" [Re: Plasmid]
    #9256940 - 11/16/08 08:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I came across this thread randomly and I just wanted to add a few things...

Animals do bully other animals... You may not see it as malicious but how can you even tell? You can't even pretend to understand an animals phyche. I mean not just in this instant but in any action. Does a dog lick his balls just because they ich or does it feel good? You can't know you aren't that dog!

And to the OP's original question why do people bully each other/ just say hurtful things in general.... Putting someone down give some a sence of power. That power is really only achieved when the other individual gives in....

Quote:

blewmeanie
I have seen people who clearly externalize their own self hate into a bitter flood of hatred to everyone else around them. Especially girls who used to be fat, and probably still are.

Quote:

Lndrydusting
It happens:shrug:

Quote:

blewmeanie
ah you're no fun, you clearly saw through my little game.




It can end if you end it. If you cry and protest thats when they've won because thats how they get their satisfaction. Some of it ranges from bad selfesteem but some just comes out of ones interest in just how far they can push someone until they break.


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