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OfflineEllis Dee
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Neville's Folly
    #924252 - 10/02/02 06:01 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Tom Adkins
CommonConservative.com 10/1/02

Neville's Folly

by Tom Adkins
Today is September 30th. Mean anything to you? Probably not. But
it's possibly one of the most significant dates in world history.
It marks the 64th anniversary of British Prime Minister Neville
Chamberlain prancing in front of 10 Downing Street in London,
waiving the Munich Treaty like a trophy, proclaiming, "A British
Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with
honour. I believe it is peace for our time... Go home and get a
nice quiet sleep." And they did. Hooray! England didn't have to
fight a war!

Within two years, Londoners slept in subway tunnels as Nazi
bombers blitzed English cities.

September 30, 1938, celebrates the most costly appeasement in
world history, as Chamberlain surrendered the Sudetenland to
Germany in exchange for Hitler's promise to stop invading Europe.
Hitler immediately understood England was gutless, and promptly
invaded the rest of Europe, then Russia. Within 7 years, estimates
vary between 35,000,000 and 60,000,000 dead, plus incomprehensible
destruction. All because of Chamberlains cowardly capitulation to a
bloodthirsty madman.

If appeasement is the bastard son of diplomacy, hedging is a First
Cousin. Franklin D. Roosevelt claimed there was no solid political
reason to take on Germany or the saber-rattling Japanese until Dec 7,
1941, as 2,388 Americans lost their lives at Pearl Harbor. The next
day, Germany and Italy declared war on America. Finally, FDR had his
"direct evidence" of Japanese and German intentions.

From the schoolyard to the world stage, appeasement and hedging have
created more death, mayhem, and bowed heads of slavery than any
other diplomatic path. It is amazing how often these twin pillars
of ignorant cowardice dominate history. From Northern France to
Ireland, rampaging Vikings raided, raped, and pillaged anything
within sailing distance, demanding and receiving gold for peace.
When the gold ran out, the raids returned until somebody figured
out they could build a nice army with all that gold. Jimmy Carter
practically gave the world to the Soviet Union, then Ronald Reagan
and George H.W. Bush grabbed the politburo's throat and squeezed
until Lenin statues started falling. Israel is currently
experiencing the result of the failed land-for-peace Oslo accords,
which united and incited radical Arab factions to ratchet up
violence. Unable to understand Hitler's threat and unwilling to
buck popular opinion of the unwashed masses, Chamberlain spinelessly
bargained for a mere 18 months of temporary peace, rescued by
idealistic American men, machines, and blood. Again.

The stark examples of unchecked hedging also present a deep stain
upon the world fabric: Khmer Rouge. Idi Amin. Rwanda. Eastern
Europe. Yet today, as George Bush faces the greatest threat to
world peace, appeasers and hedgers are running amok. Despite
piles of bones and rivers of blood from a century of appeasement
and hedging, the United Nations had to be embarrassed into tepidly
supporting Bush's threat to enforce unfulfilled 11-year old
sanctions upon a terrorist state that refuses to disarm, threatens
to export biological and chemical weapons, and menaces the world
with the nuclear weapons it tries mightily to develop. The choice
of pre-emptive action cannot be more compelling.

Yet fools still wring their hands: Why the hurry? What will happen
to the economy? What could happen to Middle East stability? What
will the world think? The answers to these ludicrous questions are
simple: Every day is closer to Hussein giving terrorists a
biological weapon or successfully assembling a nuclear weapon.
The economy will be quite fine when a free Iraq sells oil on the
open market. We want to destabilize the troublemaking despots who
dominate the Middle East (then crush them). And who gives a damn
what the world thinks? We have 3,000 excuses to defend ourselves
any way we see fit.

Today, George W. Bush faces a classic world crisis. Except this
time, America is the prime target. Terrorists reside in half the
world's nations, a dozen actively supporting them. They want to
kill us. Yet just like the terminally nationalistic Europe of the
1930s, the world seems dominated by foolish leaders who don't grasp
the danger, determined to hang separately rather than hang together.
Once again, America must save the world, despite itself. So be it.
That's what makes us great.

So don't just remember this date, celebrate it. Tip your glass to
the most gutless, naive leader in the last century: Neville
Chamberlain. And if anyone asks you if we should be fighting
this war, ask them if they celebrate September 30th.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleFrog31337
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #924720 - 10/02/02 01:09 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

That was a good post. It was very well layed out and logical. The difference between Hitler and Sadam is that Hitler was invading countries. Sadam is sitting in a desert annoying his neighbors.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #924880 - 10/02/02 02:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Compared to the american response to Hitler, Neville was ferocious. The americans were actively working on developing a relationship with Hitler once he'd taken Britain out. Thank god at least the brits had some backbone.

It's highly debateable whether the US would ever have declared war on Hitler - in the end it took Hitler declaring war on them before they did anything.

And as the man above said - Hitler was invading countries, Iraq is a third world country, starving, riddled with disease and with 3-5000 little kids under the age of 5 dying every month. The comparison is utterly ridiculous.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Frog31337]
    #925130 - 10/02/02 04:00 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Frog31337 writes:

the difference between Hitler and Sadam is that Hitler was invading countries.

You miss the point. At the time Chamberlain signed the Munich agreement, Hitler WASN'T invading countries, with the exception of the Austrian anschluss. At that time, not even all those in Austria characterized his "reunification of Germanic peoples" as an invasion, though many did.

It wasn't until Chamberlain and Daladier signed the Munich agreement that Hitler occupied the Sudeten portion of Czechoslovakia, then the rest of Czechoslovakia, then Poland, at which point Britain and France finally declared war on him.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #925144 - 10/02/02 04:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

It's highly debateable whether the US would ever have declared war on Hitler - in the end it took Hitler declaring war on them before they did anything.

But isn't that what you and the majority of the anti-American posters to this forum want? For the United States to "mind its own business", and stay out of the affairs of the rest of the world? Don't you all advocate that the US sit back and let the other countries settle their differences by themselves? After all, according to you Iraq is no threat to the US, nor even to its neighbors. Saddam has assured us repeatedly he is no threat and has no intentions of wars of conquest, just as Hitler was full of assurances sixty years ago.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #925521 - 10/02/02 06:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

But isn't that what you and the majority of the anti-American posters to this forum want?

Nope. We want the exact opposite. For the US to stop installing brutal dictators like Saddam, arming them for 12 years and then going and blowing the fuck out of innocent little brown people when you need the oil.

As I said, Hitler had assembled the most powerful army the world had ever seen by 1938. That's kinda different to a third world country like Iraq who'se army is about as threatening as the Hare Krishnas.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #925547 - 10/02/02 06:25 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You miss the point. At the time Chamberlain signed the Munich agreement, Hitler WASN'T invading countries, with the exception of the Austrian anschluss.

Well, remember that he'd taken over the Rhineland in '36 and his military inolvement in the spanish civil war..then there was the little matter of him building the most powerful military machine the world had ever known in the 4-5 short years he'd came to power, withdrawing from the league of nations, forming a pact with Italy who had recently invaded Ethiopia. And writing in Mein Kampf and every public speech he ever gave that his aim was to invade Russia.

That's the kinda thing I think most people would agree was a threat. Not Iraq.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinefoghorn
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #925646 - 10/02/02 06:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)


chamberland's appeasement to Hitler was made almost without choice - as the english army was ill prepared for ANOTHER war with Germany, who had been building up their military for the past several years

the appeasement, though it lasted for a pretty short period of time allowed the english and french (hahahahaha) to build up and fortify their defences... obviously the french didnt use their time wisely, but Chamberland's decision may have saved thousands of brits by fortifying their aerial defences

there is no way Europe could have fought and won the war vs Nazi Germany alone, and the appeasement was done before the 'allied' forces banded together against their common enemy

sep 30 is also my birthday


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #930495 - 10/04/02 02:04 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You seem to have gone very quiet pinky. Care to address a few of the facts in this thread?

The difference between Iraq and Germany's military might would be a good place to start.

Then you can address the spanish civil war, the re-occupation of the Rhineland, the withdrawal from the league of nations, the massive re-armament programe, the constant statements Hitler made about invading Russia etc etc etc


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #930882 - 10/04/02 04:22 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You seem to have gone very quiet pinky.

Contrary to your belief, Alex dear lad, I do not spend 24 hours a day hovering over the keyboard. Patience is a virtue, don't you know?

The author's POINT re appeasement as a workable strategy to deter aggression is that it doesn't work. He specifically uses the case of the Munich agreement to provide a textbook example to PROVE it doesn't work. Frog 1337 chose to ignore the point entirely and quibble over minor differences in the analogy, and he didn't even get THAT right... he says "The difference between Hitler and Sadam is that Hitler was invading countries," apparently forgetting that Iraq DID in fact invade a country.

You are of course quite correct when you point out there were plenty of indications that Hitler intended to initiate a war of conquest -- the examples you gave merely bolster the author's point that these obvious indications were dismissed by Chamberlain (and others -- Chamberlain was not the only appeaser) because they felt these obvious danger signs carried less weight than Hitler's personal assurance that he would behave himself.

Similarly, there are indications that Hussein is planning future acts of aggression -- his refusal to destroy his existing stocks of OFFENSIVE weapons such as longe-range missiles and chemical and biological agents, his massive rebuilding of his conventional weaponry, his standing army of half a million men and reserve forces of 650,000, his continuing weapons development programs, etc.

Yet for some reason, despite Hussein's track record, the majority of the posters to this forum (including yourself) are willing to accept Hussein's assurance that he will behave himself. Not only do they exhibit a ssomewhat touching naivete on this point, they have the audacity to accuse anyone who DOESN'T trust Hussein's word of being naive, claiming that "Iraq is no more dangerous than Mexico," etc.

One small point... you claim that "And writing in Mein Kampf and every public speech he ever gave that his aim was to invade Russia." Although he did express his wish to see Russia overrun in Mein Kampf, he certainly did not broadcast this aim in "EVERY public speech," far from it. Nazi Germany and Russia were allies at the outbreak of the war, remember?

pinky



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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #930910 - 10/04/02 04:32 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

We want the exact opposite. For the US to stop installing brutal dictators like Saddam...

First of all, the US didn't "install" Hussein. He seized power all by himself.

But back to your odd dichotomy of what you believe the US should have done:

You criticized the US for not declaring war on Germany and instead waiting for Germany to declare war on the US. Do I take it then that you approve of the US decision to liberate Kuwait in 1991? If so, do you DISAPPROVE of their decision not to finish the job back then?

After all, if (as you claim) it is the fault of the US that Hussein was in a position to invade Kuwait; if all of Hussein's actions are the direct result of US policies towards him, is it not their responsibility to clean up their mess and eliminate this Frankenstein's monster of theirs?

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #931506 - 10/04/02 11:40 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Contrary to your belief, Alex dear lad, I do not spend 24 hours a day hovering over the keyboard.

Well you've made several posts in other topics at the board since. Perhaps this thread just slipped your mind...

First of all, the US didn't "install" Hussein. He seized power all by himself.

Not according to the CIA. The CIA official responsible called it at the time "Our favourite coup".

You criticized the US for not declaring war on Germany and instead waiting for Germany to declare war on the US. Do I take it then that you approve of the US decision to liberate Kuwait in 1991?

As we've already established comparing Germany and Iraq is silly.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (10/04/02 11:46 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #931772 - 10/04/02 01:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Not according to the CIA. The CIA official responsible called it at the time "Our favourite coup".

It is not uncommon for ambitious government officials bent on advancement to take credit for things they had nothing to do with, particularly in the clandestine services where the only intelligence available to congress comes from the agency itself. There was a post here not long ago detailing Hussein's rise to power -- I believe it was Lord Morham who posted it.

As we've already established comparing Germany and Iraq is silly.

"We" have established no such thing. However, I find it revealing that you feel comparing Nazi Germany to Iraq is "silly", yet comparing Nazi Germany to the USA is not.

I ask again, since you feel it correct to criticize the US for not declaring war on Germany in 1939, do you approve of the US decision to liberate Kuwait in 1991? If so, do you DISAPPROVE of their decision not to finish the job back then?

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #931869 - 10/04/02 02:38 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"We" have established no such thing.

Well you've offered nothing to refute it.

I ask again, since you feel it correct to criticize the US for not declaring war on Germany in 1939, do you approve of the US decision to liberate Kuwait in 1991?

You talk as tho Saddam woke up one morning and said "I know, I'll invade Kuwait today!".

Lets go back a bit and put things in context. Do I approve of the US installing Saddam in power, arming him with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons for 10 years, encouraging him in his war on Iran, developing a relationship so close it was known as "the love affair", and saying "we have no interest in arab-arab conflicts" on the eve of the invasion of Kuwait? Nope. The trouble is if you encourage, prop up and arm brutal dictators then you have to expect things to go wrong occasionally. If you insist on supporting dictators like Saddam these things are going to happen. The best thing is not to support thugs in the first place.

The analogy is if you brought a wild jackal into your home and let it sleep beside your baby every night. Once the jackal has eaten the baby are you justified in taking action against the jackal? Who would you blame - the jackal or the people who supported it and left it in the baby's room?

btw, saying Kuwait was "liberated" is rather ironic. The savage US backed rulers who were re-installed in Kuwait are every bit as vicious and corrupt as Saddam. Whether it was worth a single life returning these worthless evil bastards to power I'm not sure.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (10/04/02 03:01 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #932012 - 10/04/02 03:26 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Do I approve of the US installing Saddam in power...

The US did not "install" Hussein... he did that on his own.

...arming him with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons...

Ummm... NUCLEAR weapons? I thought all you Saddam-lovers insist that he has no nuclear weapons program.

The trouble is if you encourage, prop up and arm brutal dictators then you have to expect things to go wrong occasionally. If you insist on supporting dictators like Saddam these things are going to happen.

True... IF one does such things, one must assume responsibility for dealing with the things that go wrong. Hence my oft-repeated yet still unanswered question -- do you agree with the US decision to expel the Iraqi occupation army from Kuwait in 1991?

The best thing is not to support thugs in the first place.

Agreed. However, when said thugs get out of line, is it not correct to withdraw all support and to oppose them to the limit of one's ability?

The analogy is if you brought a wild jackal into your home and let it sleep beside your baby every night. Once the jackal has eaten the baby are you justified in taking action against the jackal?

Of course! What rational person would think otherwise?

Whether it was worth a single life returning these worthless evil bastards to power I'm not sure.

You may not be sure, but the thousands of Kuwaitis who had their relatives raped, tortured, and murdered and their businesses looted and destroyed hold a different opinion.

Before we move on to some other tangent or evasion, could you please answer the questions I have asked? Note that I answer ALL your questions.

1) Do you agree with the US decision to expel the Iraqi occupation army from Kuwait in 1991?

Yes _______

No ________

2) Do you agree with their decision to leave Hussein in power in 1991 rather than eliminating him when they had the chance?

Yes _______

No ________




pinky




--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #932033 - 10/04/02 03:31 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry but if you can only understand world affairs in terms of "yes" or "no" you really arn't to be taken seriously.

Are you sure about the jackal thing? You'd feel ok about the people who let the jackal sleep in the same room as their baby? You have a very strange idea of rationality...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #932046 - 10/04/02 03:33 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You may not be sure, but the thousands of Kuwaitis who had their relatives raped, tortured, and murdered and their businesses looted and destroyed hold a different opinion.

And the Kuwait's who have been raped, tortured and murdered since "liberation" may tell a different story to you. One more complex than "yes or no".


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #932098 - 10/04/02 03:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry but if you can only understand world affairs in terms of "yes" or "no" you really arn't to be taken seriously.

YESSS! *High Five* I win the bet! Thanks, Alex. I'll think of you while I'm enjoying my free dinner tonight.

I knew you would never answer those questions, since doing so would expose the contradictions and irrationalities in your position. You are soooooo predictable.

You'd feel ok about the people who let the jackal sleep in the same room as their baby?

I never said that, oh master of distortion, evasion, and misinterpretation. The question asked was "Once the jackal has eaten the baby are you justified in taking action against the jackal?" The answer is, "Of course!"

To get away from analogies and return to the real world, do I agree with every facet (or even MOST facets) of the US relationship with Saddam Hussein pre-1990? Emphatically not! Clearly it was a mistake to tolerate his actions. However, past errors are not a justification for continued errors.

Although I know you won't believe me, I was one of many who expressed the opinion during the Reagan administration that SH was a loose cannon and not to be co-operated with -- I did not form this opinion with the benefit of hindsight.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #932110 - 10/04/02 03:56 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

And the Kuwait's who have been raped, tortured and murdered since "liberation" may tell a different story to you. One more complex than "yes or no".

Does the Kuwaiti government share the same respect for human rights as the US government? Nope, but then again neither does ANY Arab government, the Saudis included.

However, to pretend the life of the Kuwaiti populace is worse under the existing Kuwaiti regime than it was during the Iraqi regime is worse than naive, it is deliberately dishonest.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #932461 - 10/04/02 05:46 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

YESSS! *High Five* I win the bet!

What bet?

I knew you would never answer those questions

Which questions? The "Daddy say yes or no" stuff? I thought you were joking to be honest. You mean you were serious?

Clearly it was a mistake to tolerate his actions. However, past errors are not a justification for continued errors.

Oh I see. Installing a brutal dictator in power, arming him, shipping him chemical weapons and loaning him billions of dollars is "tolerating" someone is it? Giving a known murderer a billion dollars and chemical weapons is a "past error" is it? Gee. Well, that's ok then. I'm sure Dubya will pick another wonderful, compassionate person who will take just as much care of his people as Saddam did in the 80's when you were shipping him weaponry.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #932472 - 10/04/02 05:50 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Does the Kuwaiti government share the same respect for human rights as the US government?

So why continue to prop them up? It's the same problem again isn't it. Prop up murderous dictators as long as they do what the US wants. Perhaps we should try encouraging democracy for a change? Just for once? Is that conceivable?

However, to pretend the life of the Kuwaiti populace is worse under the existing Kuwaiti regime than it was during the Iraqi regime is worse than naive, it is deliberately dishonest.

Yes I'm sure it's a big comfort to know the man attaching electrodes to your testicles is in the Kuwaiti army rather than an Iraqi army. I don't know what they're complaining about.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (10/04/02 05:52 PM)


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #933269 - 10/05/02 12:09 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Lets go back a bit and put things in context. Do I approve of the US installing Saddam in power, arming him with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons for 10 years,



Where did you pull that statement out of, your ass? The US of A never provided Saddam with weapons of mass destruction. We've always been strongly opposed to that. We even gave Israel special medium range jets in the early 80's to have them bomb a nuclear plant in Iraq for us. We have always made it policy to keep WOMD out of the arabians hands. Other developed cpountries sold them plants and factories that had duel used, for making pesticides and making chemical agents. But that was not the US. That your your friend France.

You have proved again and again, you really don't know what you're talking about...


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (10/05/02 02:40 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #933438 - 10/05/02 01:06 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

What bet?

It was a bet I made with a friend of mine here... a Dutch expatriate and fellow windsurfer/shroomer. I persuaded him to browse through some of the posts here. He was greatly amused and somewhat incredulous. We weren't picking on you in particular, Alex -- he was pretty amazed at some of the other regular posters here -- but he did just about choke laughing at your "foot long sharpened steel spike jutting out of the steering wheel" safety feature for cars.

Anyway, I was composing a reply to one of your posts, and I said, "I bet he will never answer these questions... he'll just dodge them or say they are irrelevant or claim that if I am too dumb to divine his REAL position then I am an imbecile." My buddy said, "No, I don't think you're right. Since this is the third time you've asked them, he will HAVE to answer them or he'll look like a fool." So we made a bet ... loser had to buy dinner tonight. For the record, it was delicious.

My buddy wants a rematch though. We made the same bet, and I have to give you another chance. So, for the fourth time, here we go. This is your opportunity to take money out of my pocket, remember:

1) Do you agree with the US decision to expel the Iraqi occupation army from Kuwait in 1991?

Yes _______
No ________

2) Do you agree with their decision to leave Hussein in power in 1991 rather than eliminating him when they had the chance?

Yes _______
No ________

Giving a known murderer a billion dollars and chemical weapons is a "past error" is it?

Oh, most assuredly. In my opinion it was a big mistake to provide him cultures from which to develop stocks of biological weapons. It was a big mistake to loan him any money. It was a HUGE mistake not to finish him off in 1991. It was a mistake to let him make a mockery of the surrender agreement for the last eleven years.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #933522 - 10/05/02 01:31 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

So why continue to prop them up? It's the same problem again isn't it. Prop up murderous dictators as long as they do what the US wants. Perhaps we should try encouraging democracy for a change? Just for once? Is that conceivable?

The only secular democracy in that part of the world is Israel, so I take it you approve of the US supporting Israel.

I have no doubt that the US would be delighted to see more democracies among the Arab states, but as you are aware, it is against international law for a nation to support -- overtly or covertly -- the overthrow of a foreign government.

Of course, it is not just the US who "props up" Kuwait -- any nation who has sold them arms would meet that definition, or any nation who does business with them, for that matter, since all oil revenues go straight to the government.

Yes I'm sure it's a big comfort to know the man attaching electrodes to your testicles is in the Kuwaiti army rather than an Iraqi army.

Arab governments are harsh and for the most part contemptuous of human rights when it comes to dissidents. However, to compare their treatment of those whom they perceive as "enemies of the state" to the wholesale, indiscriminate carnage wreaked on the Kuwaiti populace at large by the occupying Iraqi forces is absurd.

I do hate to stray from the topic at hand, but since you invariably attempt to derail the discussion into tangential areas, allow me to do the same just this once:

Speaking of violations of human rights, I have read many pretty disturbing (and well-documented) reports about the way Irish prisoners are treated in Long Kesh, as well as credible reports of SAS "death squads" whose sole purpose is to assassinate IRA members. Yet England is a democracy, is it not? In order for you to hold a consistent stance, you would have to agree that all nations who uphold human rights should cease all relations with England until the English occupation forces are withdrawn from Northern Ireland and all the political prisoners released, right?

pinky




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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #933641 - 10/05/02 02:17 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

It was a bet I made with a friend of mine here... a Dutch expatriate and fellow windsurfer/shroomer. I persuaded him to browse through some of the posts here.

Oh yes, is that the little friend you keep in your pocket? The one you feed bread and cheese?

but he did just about choke laughing at your "foot long sharpened steel spike jutting out of the steering wheel" safety feature for cars.

Yawn...check out the car accident rate and see if it has increased or decreased with added safety features in cars. Every expert on road safety will tell you the same thing. Making people feel invulnerable makes them drive with less care and attention. There's really no argument about that.

In my opinion it was a big mistake to provide him cultures from which to develop stocks of biological weapons.

So now we should trust the US to put things right? Tell me something, if i introduced you to a man who raped your wife and kids before cutting their throats and a few weeks later I came round and said "Sorry, that was a mistake - let me introduce you to someone else" how would you feel?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #933671 - 10/05/02 02:31 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Where did you pull that statement out of, your ass? The US of A never provided Daddam with weapons of mass destruction. We've always been strongly opposed to that.

Sigh...yes dear of course they have. Now go back to watching american gladiators.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #933695 - 10/05/02 02:43 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Crawl back under your bridge...


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #933740 - 10/05/02 03:14 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Oh yes, is that the little friend you keep in your pocket? The one you feed bread and cheese?

Nope. The one who owes me another dinner.

Yawn...check out the car accident rate and see if it has increased or decreased with added safety features in cars. Every expert on road safety will tell you the same thing.

The NHTSA figures show a steady decline in both accident rates and fatality rates since the introduction of mandatory seat belts in 1970. As a matter of fact, the fatality rate per vehicle miles travelled has been declining for just under 40 years now, but I have only been following the numbers closely since 1971. The NHTSA has only the figures from 1994 to present on their website. If you want their previous studies you have to order them in paper form through snailmail. The figures on their website show a decline in fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles travelled from 1.8 to 1.5. You can check them yourself at www.nhtsa.gov.

Making people feel invulnerable makes them drive with less care and attention.

Just as a woman with a gun in her purse will choose to walk home through a sketchy neighborhood at 3 am on a Saturday night rather than take a taxi, right?

There's really no argument about that.

Don't argue with me, argue with the NHTSA.

Tell me something, if i introduced you to a man who raped your wife and kids before cutting their throats and a few weeks later I came round and said "Sorry, that was a mistake - let me introduce you to someone else" how would you feel?

*Sigh* Alex, Alex... not even capable of constructing an analogy that fits, are you? Is it because you are too dense or too dishonest? Let's try something that actually bears at least a faint resemblance to the situation under discussion, shall we?

I introduce you to a man who rapes your wife and kids before cutting their throats. A few weeks later I come round and say "I apologize for introducing you to that madman. I've killed him."

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #933833 - 10/05/02 04:34 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The NHTSA has only the figures from 1994 to present on their website.

We are talking about whether safety additions such as airbags and building stronger cars reduces the accident rate. All the evidence shows it doesn't.

http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats/1999_car_accident_stats.html

As another expert points out:

Another reason for doubting that driver education serves as a cure-all is the considerable evidence that the programs now being offered are not likely to reduce their graduates' crash rate. On the contrary, the evidence suggests that formal driver education, which is mandated in some jurisdictions, often has the opposite effect, as do a few other accident countermeasures, such as anti-lock braking systems (ABS), airbags, and even reflector posts.(2)

http://www.icbc.com/Library/recovery/volume9/Number2/TargetingRisk/

Incidentally the spike wasn't my idea, I saw an interview with an expert on road accidents who was asked whether installing airbags was going to cut the number of accidents. He laughed and said exactly the opposite, the accident rate was still increasing and the most effective safety addition you could make to a car would be to install a steel spike on the wheel. He'd been involved in the area for over 30 years.

Another expert showing the fallacy of airbags in reducing crash rates:

Engineering alone is ineffective at best; can even increase risk.
Safe driving behaviors like staying within speed limits, heeding stop signs, and using safety belts have to be performed over and over again. Research indications that engineering has no direct effect, or only a very limited direct effect, on behaviors like these. The engineering might decrease drivers' risk assessment (for example, being fully protected by seat belts and airbags in a crash), but the expanded engineering effort usually does not result in behavior changes but lower risk assessment that often leads to poor risk choices.
Yet support persists for programs like high school driver education; motorcycle education and training; engineering to increase safety belt and helmet use; and improvement programs for problem drivers, young drivers, and/or drivers in general. Such programs are commonplace, but many of them never get evaluated, typically because of their common-sense appeal. "Who can argue against the benefits of education or training?" asks Institute chief scientist Allan Williams. "But when good scientific evaluations are undertaken, most of the driver improvement programs based on education or persuasion alone are found not to reduce the crash rate." Cost and safety benefits for any engineering or enforcement activity by itself is in a similar position due to the inability to make clear sample comparisons. Additional safety technology and engineering cannot be scientifically‑proven to change driver behavior or risk assessment.


http://www.adtsea.iup.edu/adtsea/TheChronicle/summer_fall_01/engineering_alone.htm


introduce you to a man who rapes your wife and kids before cutting their throats. A few weeks later I come round and say "I apologize for introducing you to that madman. I've killed him."

Not really. If you had vouched for him and supported him for decades while he was killing other families I would consider you just as guilty as the murderer.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (10/05/02 04:56 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #933844 - 10/05/02 05:09 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex 123 writes:

We are talking about whether safety additions such as airbags and building stronger cars reduces the accident rate. All the evidence shows it doesn't.

As usual, the standard Alex maneuver of dodging the topic at hand -- the futility of appeasement as a deterrent. I will start another thread to address the automotive fallacies espoused by your "experts".

Not really. If you had vouched for him and supported him for decades while he was killing other families I would consider you just as guilty as the murderer.

Even if it wasn't me who had done so, but my predecessor? Even if I decided to shoulder the responsibility for finally bringing him to justice; for cleaning up the mess left to me by my predecessor (Reagan)?

Your solution is to say "Oh, well. He killed before, but I believe him when he says he is no longer a threat. Let's let bygones be bygones. Not my problem anyway, because he is too far away to hurt any of MY family."

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #933975 - 10/05/02 07:58 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

As usual, the standard Alex maneuver of dodging the topic at hand -- the futility of appeasement as a deterrent. I will start another thread to address the automotive fallacies espoused by your "experts".

It was actually you who brought it up in this thread. Is your memory really that bad?

for cleaning up the mess left to me by my predecessor (Reagan)?

Actually it was Bush too. Bush defended Saddams gassing of the kurds in 1988 saying the evidence may have been faked and that it may have been Iran who gassed them. He also presided over massive arms shipments and loaning Saddam a billion dollars the year after the 1988 gassing. In 1990 suddenly he was saying that Saddam was a danger to the world and using the gassing to condemn Saddam. (two years earlier he was defending Saddam over the gassing) .

At some point you have to judge nations on what they have actually done, not what they say they will do in the future. I'm afraid saying "Go on, I know we've supported this maniac for decades but if we get another chance we'll support a wonderful human being and let democracy flourish..honest!" doesn't really work. That's like giving Ted Bundy the keys to the girls dormitory because he says "I'll be good this time!"


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #934069 - 10/05/02 10:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

It was actually you who brought it up in this thread. Is your memory really that bad?

I mentioned it very briefly, in passing. I didn't dedicate an entire lengthy post to it in the hopes of obscuring the issue under discussion.

At some point you have to judge nations on what they have actually done, not what they say they will do in the future.

I agree. Why does Iraq not qualify for this judgement?

I'm afraid saying "Go on, I know we've supported this maniac for decades but if we get another chance we'll support a wonderful human being and let democracy flourish..honest!" doesn't really work.

The US has opposed Hussein for longer than they supported him. What is this "decades" nonsense you refer to?

That's like giving Ted Bundy the keys to the girls dormitory because he says "I'll be good this time!"

My point exactly. Thank you for expressing it so neatly. Dropping the sanctions against Iraq and letting Hussein continue his arms buildup and weapons development program is precisely analogous to giving Ted Bundy the keys to the dormitory.

pinky



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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #934083 - 10/05/02 10:34 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Bush defended Saddams gassing of the kurds in 1988 saying the evidence may have been faked and that it may have been Iran who gassed them. He also presided over massive arms shipments and loaning Saddam a billion dollars the year after the 1988 gassing. In 1990 suddenly he was saying that Saddam was a danger to the world and using the gassing to condemn Saddam.

So when the evidence became overwhelming that Saddam had in fact gassed them, and Bush acknowledged that fact, he was acting in error?

Then when Saddam invaded Iraq, thereby proving he was a danger not only to those within his own borders, but to neighboring nations as well, was it correct for the US to assist the Kuwaitis in ousting the occupation forces?

Yes _____
No ______

Once the occupation forces had been ousted, was it correct for the US to leave Hussein in power rather than finishing the job and neutralizing the monster they had given arms and money to?

Yes _____
No _____

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #934452 - 10/05/02 02:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

So when the evidence became overwhelming that Saddam had in fact gassed them, and Bush acknowledged that fact, he was acting in error?

Try and keep up. The evidence of the gassing never changed. From 1988-90 Bush simply chose to ignore it and continue arming his friend Saddam.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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