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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #932472 -

Does the Kuwaiti government share the same respect for human rights as the US government?

So why continue to prop them up? It's the same problem again isn't it. Prop up murderous dictators as long as they do what the US wants. Perhaps we should try encouraging democracy for a change? Just for once? Is that conceivable?

However, to pretend the life of the Kuwaiti populace is worse under the existing Kuwaiti regime than it was during the Iraqi regime is worse than naive, it is deliberately dishonest.

Yes I'm sure it's a big comfort to know the man attaching electrodes to your testicles is in the Kuwaiti army rather than an Iraqi army. I don't know what they're complaining about.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (10/04/02 03:52 PM)

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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #933269 -

In reply to:
Lets go back a bit and put things in context. Do I approve of the US installing Saddam in power, arming him with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons for 10 years,


Where did you pull that statement out of, your ass? The US of A never provided Saddam with weapons of mass destruction. We've always been strongly opposed to that. We even gave Israel special medium range jets in the early 80's to have them bomb a nuclear plant in Iraq for us. We have always made it policy to keep WOMD out of the arabians hands. Other developed cpountries sold them plants and factories that had duel used, for making pesticides and making chemical agents. But that was not the US. That your your friend France.

You have proved again and again, you really don't know what you're talking about...


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Edited by Ellis Dee (10/05/02 12:40 AM)

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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #933438 -

Alex123 writes:

What bet?

It was a bet I made with a friend of mine here... a Dutch expatriate and fellow windsurfer/shroomer. I persuaded him to browse through some of the posts here. He was greatly amused and somewhat incredulous. We weren't picking on you in particular, Alex -- he was pretty amazed at some of the other regular posters here -- but he did just about choke laughing at your "foot long sharpened steel spike jutting out of the steering wheel" safety feature for cars.

Anyway, I was composing a reply to one of your posts, and I said, "I bet he will never answer these questions... he'll just dodge them or say they are irrelevant or claim that if I am too dumb to divine his REAL position then I am an imbecile." My buddy said, "No, I don't think you're right. Since this is the third time you've asked them, he will HAVE to answer them or he'll look like a fool." So we made a bet ... loser had to buy dinner tonight. For the record, it was delicious.

My buddy wants a rematch though. We made the same bet, and I have to give you another chance. So, for the fourth time, here we go. This is your opportunity to take money out of my pocket, remember:

1) Do you agree with the US decision to expel the Iraqi occupation army from Kuwait in 1991?

Yes _______
No ________

2) Do you agree with their decision to leave Hussein in power in 1991 rather than eliminating him when they had the chance?

Yes _______
No ________

Giving a known murderer a billion dollars and chemical weapons is a "past error" is it?

Oh, most assuredly. In my opinion it was a big mistake to provide him cultures from which to develop stocks of biological weapons. It was a big mistake to loan him any money. It was a HUGE mistake not to finish him off in 1991. It was a mistake to let him make a mockery of the surrender agreement for the last eleven years.

pinky


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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #933522 -

Alex123 writes:

So why continue to prop them up? It's the same problem again isn't it. Prop up murderous dictators as long as they do what the US wants. Perhaps we should try encouraging democracy for a change? Just for once? Is that conceivable?

The only secular democracy in that part of the world is Israel, so I take it you approve of the US supporting Israel.

I have no doubt that the US would be delighted to see more democracies among the Arab states, but as you are aware, it is against international law for a nation to support -- overtly or covertly -- the overthrow of a foreign government.

Of course, it is not just the US who "props up" Kuwait -- any nation who has sold them arms would meet that definition, or any nation who does business with them, for that matter, since all oil revenues go straight to the government.

Yes I'm sure it's a big comfort to know the man attaching electrodes to your testicles is in the Kuwaiti army rather than an Iraqi army.

Arab governments are harsh and for the most part contemptuous of human rights when it comes to dissidents. However, to compare their treatment of those whom they perceive as "enemies of the state" to the wholesale, indiscriminate carnage wreaked on the Kuwaiti populace at large by the occupying Iraqi forces is absurd.

I do hate to stray from the topic at hand, but since you invariably attempt to derail the discussion into tangential areas, allow me to do the same just this once:

Speaking of violations of human rights, I have read many pretty disturbing (and well-documented) reports about the way Irish prisoners are treated in Long Kesh, as well as credible reports of SAS "death squads" whose sole purpose is to assassinate IRA members. Yet England is a democracy, is it not? In order for you to hold a consistent stance, you would have to agree that all nations who uphold human rights should cease all relations with England until the English occupation forces are withdrawn from Northern Ireland and all the political prisoners released, right?

pinky




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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #933641 -

It was a bet I made with a friend of mine here... a Dutch expatriate and fellow windsurfer/shroomer. I persuaded him to browse through some of the posts here.

Oh yes, is that the little friend you keep in your pocket? The one you feed bread and cheese?

but he did just about choke laughing at your "foot long sharpened steel spike jutting out of the steering wheel" safety feature for cars.

Yawn...check out the car accident rate and see if it has increased or decreased with added safety features in cars. Every expert on road safety will tell you the same thing. Making people feel invulnerable makes them drive with less care and attention. There's really no argument about that.

In my opinion it was a big mistake to provide him cultures from which to develop stocks of biological weapons.

So now we should trust the US to put things right? Tell me something, if i introduced you to a man who raped your wife and kids before cutting their throats and a few weeks later I came round and said "Sorry, that was a mistake - let me introduce you to someone else" how would you feel?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #933671 -

Where did you pull that statement out of, your ass? The US of A never provided Daddam with weapons of mass destruction. We've always been strongly opposed to that.

Sigh...yes dear of course they have. Now go back to watching american gladiators.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #933695 -

Crawl back under your bridge...


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #933740 -

Alex123 writes:

Oh yes, is that the little friend you keep in your pocket? The one you feed bread and cheese?

Nope. The one who owes me another dinner.

Yawn...check out the car accident rate and see if it has increased or decreased with added safety features in cars. Every expert on road safety will tell you the same thing.

The NHTSA figures show a steady decline in both accident rates and fatality rates since the introduction of mandatory seat belts in 1970. As a matter of fact, the fatality rate per vehicle miles travelled has been declining for just under 40 years now, but I have only been following the numbers closely since 1971. The NHTSA has only the figures from 1994 to present on their website. If you want their previous studies you have to order them in paper form through snailmail. The figures on their website show a decline in fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles travelled from 1.8 to 1.5. You can check them yourself at www.nhtsa.gov.

Making people feel invulnerable makes them drive with less care and attention.

Just as a woman with a gun in her purse will choose to walk home through a sketchy neighborhood at 3 am on a Saturday night rather than take a taxi, right?

There's really no argument about that.

Don't argue with me, argue with the NHTSA.

Tell me something, if i introduced you to a man who raped your wife and kids before cutting their throats and a few weeks later I came round and said "Sorry, that was a mistake - let me introduce you to someone else" how would you feel?

*Sigh* Alex, Alex... not even capable of constructing an analogy that fits, are you? Is it because you are too dense or too dishonest? Let's try something that actually bears at least a faint resemblance to the situation under discussion, shall we?

I introduce you to a man who rapes your wife and kids before cutting their throats. A few weeks later I come round and say "I apologize for introducing you to that madman. I've killed him."

pinky


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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #933833 -

The NHTSA has only the figures from 1994 to present on their website.

We are talking about whether safety additions such as airbags and building stronger cars reduces the accident rate. All the evidence shows it doesn't.

http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats/1999_car_accident_stats.html

As another expert points out:

Another reason for doubting that driver education serves as a cure-all is the considerable evidence that the programs now being offered are not likely to reduce their graduates' crash rate. On the contrary, the evidence suggests that formal driver education, which is mandated in some jurisdictions, often has the opposite effect, as do a few other accident countermeasures, such as anti-lock braking systems (ABS), airbags, and even reflector posts.(2)

http://www.icbc.com/Library/recovery/volume9/Number2/TargetingRisk/

Incidentally the spike wasn't my idea, I saw an interview with an expert on road accidents who was asked whether installing airbags was going to cut the number of accidents. He laughed and said exactly the opposite, the accident rate was still increasing and the most effective safety addition you could make to a car would be to install a steel spike on the wheel. He'd been involved in the area for over 30 years.

Another expert showing the fallacy of airbags in reducing crash rates:

Engineering alone is ineffective at best; can even increase risk.
Safe driving behaviors like staying within speed limits, heeding stop signs, and using safety belts have to be performed over and over again. Research indications that engineering has no direct effect, or only a very limited direct effect, on behaviors like these. The engineering might decrease drivers' risk assessment (for example, being fully protected by seat belts and airbags in a crash), but the expanded engineering effort usually does not result in behavior changes but lower risk assessment that often leads to poor risk choices.
Yet support persists for programs like high school driver education; motorcycle education and training; engineering to increase safety belt and helmet use; and improvement programs for problem drivers, young drivers, and/or drivers in general. Such programs are commonplace, but many of them never get evaluated, typically because of their common-sense appeal. "Who can argue against the benefits of education or training?" asks Institute chief scientist Allan Williams. "But when good scientific evaluations are undertaken, most of the driver improvement programs based on education or persuasion alone are found not to reduce the crash rate." Cost and safety benefits for any engineering or enforcement activity by itself is in a similar position due to the inability to make clear sample comparisons. Additional safety technology and engineering cannot be scientifically‑proven to change driver behavior or risk assessment.


http://www.adtsea.iup.edu/adtsea/TheChronicle/summer_fall_01/engineering_alone.htm


introduce you to a man who rapes your wife and kids before cutting their throats. A few weeks later I come round and say "I apologize for introducing you to that madman. I've killed him."

Not really. If you had vouched for him and supported him for decades while he was killing other families I would consider you just as guilty as the murderer.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (10/05/02 02:56 AM)

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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #933844 -

Alex 123 writes:

We are talking about whether safety additions such as airbags and building stronger cars reduces the accident rate. All the evidence shows it doesn't.

As usual, the standard Alex maneuver of dodging the topic at hand -- the futility of appeasement as a deterrent. I will start another thread to address the automotive fallacies espoused by your "experts".

Not really. If you had vouched for him and supported him for decades while he was killing other families I would consider you just as guilty as the murderer.

Even if it wasn't me who had done so, but my predecessor? Even if I decided to shoulder the responsibility for finally bringing him to justice; for cleaning up the mess left to me by my predecessor (Reagan)?

Your solution is to say "Oh, well. He killed before, but I believe him when he says he is no longer a threat. Let's let bygones be bygones. Not my problem anyway, because he is too far away to hurt any of MY family."

pinky


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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #933975 -

As usual, the standard Alex maneuver of dodging the topic at hand -- the futility of appeasement as a deterrent. I will start another thread to address the automotive fallacies espoused by your "experts".

It was actually you who brought it up in this thread. Is your memory really that bad?

for cleaning up the mess left to me by my predecessor (Reagan)?

Actually it was Bush too. Bush defended Saddams gassing of the kurds in 1988 saying the evidence may have been faked and that it may have been Iran who gassed them. He also presided over massive arms shipments and loaning Saddam a billion dollars the year after the 1988 gassing. In 1990 suddenly he was saying that Saddam was a danger to the world and using the gassing to condemn Saddam. (two years earlier he was defending Saddam over the gassing) .

At some point you have to judge nations on what they have actually done, not what they say they will do in the future. I'm afraid saying "Go on, I know we've supported this maniac for decades but if we get another chance we'll support a wonderful human being and let democracy flourish..honest!" doesn't really work. That's like giving Ted Bundy the keys to the girls dormitory because he says "I'll be good this time!"


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #934069 -

It was actually you who brought it up in this thread. Is your memory really that bad?

I mentioned it very briefly, in passing. I didn't dedicate an entire lengthy post to it in the hopes of obscuring the issue under discussion.

At some point you have to judge nations on what they have actually done, not what they say they will do in the future.

I agree. Why does Iraq not qualify for this judgement?

I'm afraid saying "Go on, I know we've supported this maniac for decades but if we get another chance we'll support a wonderful human being and let democracy flourish..honest!" doesn't really work.

The US has opposed Hussein for longer than they supported him. What is this "decades" nonsense you refer to?

That's like giving Ted Bundy the keys to the girls dormitory because he says "I'll be good this time!"

My point exactly. Thank you for expressing it so neatly. Dropping the sanctions against Iraq and letting Hussein continue his arms buildup and weapons development program is precisely analogous to giving Ted Bundy the keys to the dormitory.

pinky



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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Xlea321]
    #934083 -

Alex123 writes:

Bush defended Saddams gassing of the kurds in 1988 saying the evidence may have been faked and that it may have been Iran who gassed them. He also presided over massive arms shipments and loaning Saddam a billion dollars the year after the 1988 gassing. In 1990 suddenly he was saying that Saddam was a danger to the world and using the gassing to condemn Saddam.

So when the evidence became overwhelming that Saddam had in fact gassed them, and Bush acknowledged that fact, he was acting in error?

Then when Saddam invaded Iraq, thereby proving he was a danger not only to those within his own borders, but to neighboring nations as well, was it correct for the US to assist the Kuwaitis in ousting the occupation forces?

Yes _____
No ______

Once the occupation forces had been ousted, was it correct for the US to leave Hussein in power rather than finishing the job and neutralizing the monster they had given arms and money to?

Yes _____
No _____

pinky


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Re: Neville's Folly [Re: Phred]
    #934452 -

So when the evidence became overwhelming that Saddam had in fact gassed them, and Bush acknowledged that fact, he was acting in error?

Try and keep up. The evidence of the gassing never changed. From 1988-90 Bush simply chose to ignore it and continue arming his friend Saddam.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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