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Offlinepscyanescens
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Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent!
    #9234523 - 11/12/08 10:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

OK so here is what i got.

Carmel colored caps turning almost whitish Grey when dry, blue when bruised.
Solid white stems staining blue when bruised.
Purple brown spore prints
Growing on what appears to be fir or pine.  More shredded then chipped.
Pellicle present.
No waviness to the cap at all. No stiration except for a few oddballs that stood out.
All growing in a two raised garden beds, one cultivated corner to corner.

I know for sure they are in the psilocybe family.  Narrowing down the species is what i would like to do.  I normally find Cyanescens, but after a shitty day in SF, I decided to check out a spot a less experienced hunter recommended.  It was actually inside of a apartment complex in San Jose!  I didn't know they grew that far south.  Probably cultivated.

The funny thing is when we got there it appears that the local gardener treated them like weeds!  Tearing and ripping them up and beheading patches of 7-10 caps clustered! They left everything behind though :naughty:

Purple brown spore prints

Yippee!


Nice bluing and self printing

Freshies

Oldy

And these are some of the odd balls with stiration.  It does appear to be a psilocybe but with the whole bed colonized practically, could there be a competing species of the same family?


But for the most part I would like to know what they are.  If they are fibs they look pretty damn potent!


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9234653 - 11/12/08 11:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Those are Psilocybe cyanofriscosa.  This is the first time that I know of that they have been found in San Jose.

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Offlinepfshroomer
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9234671 - 11/12/08 11:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

looks like youve gotta few different species in there..
hopefully someone will be able do positively Identify them fer ya!
Good Luck,but nice find for sure!
Peace


--------------------
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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pfshroomer]
    #9234685 - 11/12/08 11:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looks like youve gotta few different species in there..




No, those are all the same.

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Offlinea1dirkscience
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9234711 - 11/12/08 11:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Hey B its D you for got to mention that they are all obtusely conic / hemispheric. gill color tan to brownish at this stage . does show whitish edges on gills. probably cyanofibrillosa,, could be bohemica, or subaeruginosa. we'll see soon


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9234726 - 11/12/08 11:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Those are Psilocybe cyanofriscosa.  This is the first time that I know of that they have been found in San Jose.



i wonder if they soon will take over the world...

pscyenescens, you should use all of those chips you pulled out attached to the stems to start your own bed!

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Offlinepfshroomer
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: a1dirkscience]
    #9234743 - 11/12/08 11:21 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

the fifth pic down looks like a diff species,
I know they are just younger than the rest,but it looks as if they are of different ethnicity
Peace
its time for bed
:sleepy:


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: a1dirkscience]
    #9234752 - 11/12/08 11:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

probably cyanofibrillosa,, could be bohemica, or subaeruginosa




There is no way its any of those species, but I admire your imagination.

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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: a1dirkscience]
    #9234764 - 11/12/08 11:23 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

A1dirkscience:  HEY there you are!  Glad to see you made it.  I did forget to mention that the gills looked a lot more tan then my usual cyanescens.  And you did see the whitish edge under the stereoscope?

Alan:  Why do you say Friscosa so confidently? For the sake of potency i hope your right!


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: a1dirkscience]
    #9234770 - 11/12/08 11:24 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

probably cyanofibrillosa,, could be bohemica, or subaeruginosa




There is no way its any of those species, but I admire your imagination.  P. cyanofriscosa is common in the bay area and the species you listed have never been found there. 

Quote:


the fifth pic down looks like a diff species,
I know they are just younger than the rest,but it looks as if they are of different ethnicity




Its the same species, thats how they look when they are that age.

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9234789 - 11/12/08 11:26 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

What is their natural habitat??


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Offlinea1dirkscience
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9234794 - 11/12/08 11:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

well ther in my lab under a scope right now and testing is under way , still gonna stick with cyanofibrillosa at this time


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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9234807 - 11/12/08 11:29 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Alan: But out of several hundred mushrooms all varying in age, how could there be only 2 or three that stirate?  If it is an age thing the stiration must appear and dissapear in a matter of hours then?

Baldcuban:  Definately on top of planting.  My good friend just had recent success so it gives me hope for my part of the woods as well.


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----------------
"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

Edited by pscyanescens (11/12/08 11:32 PM)

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9235034 - 11/13/08 12:09 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Why do you say Friscosa so confidently?




I have seen a lot of these.

Also since its growing in a somewhat southern area its probably cyanofriscosa since that species likes slightly warmer temperatures than cyans.

Quote:

well ther in my lab under a scope right now and testing is under way , still gonna stick with cyanofibrillosa at this time




Have you checked the spore size?

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OfflineCptnGarden
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9235101 - 11/13/08 12:21 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

wow your frm santa cruz and u found some in san jose? im from santa cruz and find huge patches there, but never found in any san jose lol!

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9235263 - 11/13/08 01:04 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Those are Psilocybe cyanofriscosa.




I agree. They look just like the ones I've found in Seattle.





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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #9235292 - 11/13/08 01:16 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Blimey: But i thought friscosa didn't grow way up in washignton? Also the stiration varies with your pics as well.  Whats up with that?

Well i guess i don't know too much at all about friscosa being that it hasn't been properly named and documented yet,.  Or has it? And also the fact that today may have been my first encounter with them. 

The reason friscosa first came to my mind was the intense blueing, and the smaller size and lack of stiration.  From what i remember reading in Paul Stamets "Psilocybe mushrooms of the world" they don't mention stiration for cyanofibrillosa, but My pictures i took in the past that i posted showed heavy stiration and i didn't get much argument back then on their ID. Let me see if i can dig them up.


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

Edited by pscyanescens (11/13/08 01:17 AM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9235312 - 11/13/08 01:25 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Ps. cyanofibrillosa is a lot smaller than friscosas.

Fibs are smaller than cyans usually, while friscosas are usually bigger than cyans.

Friscosas have been found in WA state a few times already.


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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #9235352 - 11/13/08 01:44 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Good to know!  I wasn't sure.

Here is my old pic of what i think to be fibs.


Heavy stiration, and they were, not a lot bigger, but noticeably bigger then most we were finding today. I suppose it has a lot to do with weather conditions, and humidty, and water availability.  But is my picture caption wrong?


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

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OfflineVermonster420
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9235615 - 11/13/08 03:35 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

That looks like you robbed a cultured bed of cubensis!
The striated ones are normal up here in the north when it starts getting more cold and wet.  Looking at the spores at 50x would seal the deal on it.  Nice find!  hopefully you can keep some going from the mycellium on that chip bed.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Vermonster420]
    #9235923 - 11/13/08 07:24 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

WOW. Thats a nice haul. I'm just completely shocked right now that you found them in san jose.... I've looked everywhere here and never come across psilocybe, I assumed it didn't exist this far south... at least not in numbers like that.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9237061 - 11/13/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Here is my old pic of what i think to be fibs.




Those could be cyanofriscosa.  Did you save a sample from that patch / can you collect one?

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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9237264 - 11/13/08 01:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Alan: unfortunately that pic was taken 3 years ago i believe, and they have never popped back since the first time we saw them.  So what is the deal with the random stiration?  If my old pic is friscosas it was taken before people even started to mention friscosas.  And the heavy stiration you can see in my pictures, some caps stirated almost 3/4 from the margin to the center of the cap. They also didn't seem quite as durable. And they bruised very slow and poorly compared to my recent find.  And my recent find was several days old, my old find was super fresh.

If they are cyanofibrillosa in my old pics then they would be the first and last i have ever found, in other words i don't have much experience with any psilocybe other then Cyanescens.  Just to be honest.  But i still don't understand the random stiration?


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9240154 - 11/13/08 07:52 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

a1dirkscience said:
still gonna stick with cyanofibrillosa at this time



You can think whatever you want, but the fact of the matter is that I don't know of any verified Ps. cyanofibrillosa finds in California.  I don't even know of any verified finds at all, anywhere, since the type collection from Washington.
Soooo, you can think that's what they are, but it would be a very rare find.



Quote:

pscyanescens said:
Alan: But out of several hundred mushrooms all varying in age, how could there be only 2 or three that stirate?



Because it has been dry or sunny and the caps have all become opaque.

Quote:

pscyanescens said:
If it is an age thing the stiration must appear and dissapear in a matter of hours then? 



It can if it is dry enough. If it was raining, they would have all been striate.  Here is a test for you:
take some fresh, opaque caps and put them in a cup of water and wait.  I bet you that they will go back to viscid (and striate) in an hr or so.
Also, it is STRIATE, not STIRATE.

Quote:

pscyanescens said:
The reason friscosa first came to my mind was the intense blueing, and the smaller size and lack of stiration.  From what i remember reading in Paul Stamets "Psilocybe mushrooms of the world" they don't mention stiration for cyanofibrillosa, but My pictures i took in the past that i posted showed heavy stiration and i didn't get much argument back then on their ID.



Whether or not a Psilocybe is viscid and striate or opaque is dependent on moisture retention in the pileus, and the change itself is referred to as Hygrophanous.
That said, Ps. cyanofibrillosa would be striate given the correct conditions.

Here is a photo I took from last year with two "Friscosas" and two Ps. cyanescens, one each displaying the hygrophanous effect, the remaining two faded from drying.



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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Vermonster420]
    #9240175 - 11/13/08 07:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Nice patch of South bay Friscosa's

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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: CureCat]
    #9241785 - 11/14/08 12:24 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CureCat said:



Quote:

pscyanescens said:
Alan: But out of several hundred mushrooms all varying in age, how could there be only 2 or three that stirate?



Because it has been dry or sunny and the caps have all become opaque.






It still doesn't make sense to me.  I mean it isn't like i found them in a different spot or on a different day.  I don't see how that makes a difference. And the fresh ones i found didn't striate? They were moist. And where they were growing there is actually no ambient sun light at all, it was in an outdoor enclosure with a roof above the bed protecting it from direct sunlight, and probably competitor fungi as well.

It is a good explanation for the striation however i just find it strange for only 2-3 out of a hundred or so striate. I still have faith they are all the same species, I am just curious thats all.

I might just try that test out.

And if cyanofibrillosa striates when wet or moist then why doesn't Paul mention it in his book?


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Offlinecanid
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9242142 - 11/14/08 01:45 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

because there is extremely little collective experience with that mushroom. it's only been found a few times [or fewer, as curecat pointed out, depending on how you read the identification in each case].


--------------------



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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: canid]
    #9242196 - 11/14/08 02:02 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It sounds like friscosas have more collective experience then the fibs.  It's funny they aren't a recognized species yet.  With so many finds how much time does it really take to name a species properly?

Should i send mine to MSSF?

EDIT:> I know one way to tell the fibs or friscosa!  I will tell you after this weekend :wink:


--------------------
----------------
"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

Edited by pscyanescens (11/14/08 02:08 AM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9242293 - 11/14/08 02:54 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

pscyanescens - You're thinking too hard.  Seriously.  I see that all the time, with a couple out of a patch which are striate or opaque, and the rest the opposite.  Given enough time and absence of water, they will all become opaque.  If you had them laying out after picking I'm sure you couldn't tell the 2 or 3 apart from the rest after a couple hrs or less. 

And when I said "because it has been dry or sunny" I meant that if it was a shady spot or there had been no sun, then it was just too dry.  Maybe it didn't feel dry to you, but it was obviously dry enough to dry out the cap of the mushrooms.

Your question is like asking why some apples on a tree ripen faster than others, or why some oranges from the same tree are more orange, yet they were all growing from the same organism in the same habitat.


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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9242308 - 11/14/08 03:01 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Curecat: So i have been soaking for about an hour the color changed back to the carmel brown and no reappearing striation. We will see tomorrow i guess.

Something strange i noticed as well.....  The three with striation have dried caps that are white like the rest of them now, but the striation has not disappeared! It is still very prominent and makes them stand out from the rest even more. I have separated those three and plan to attempt to cultivate them separate from the others.


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: CureCat]
    #9242313 - 11/14/08 03:04 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CureCat said:
If you had them laying out after picking I'm sure you couldn't tell the 2 or 3 apart from the rest after a couple hrs or less. 





Well you are wrong i can definitely tell a difference 24 hours later!  I wish i had my camera today :frown:


EDIT:

Quote:

And when I said "because it has been dry or sunny" I meant that if it was a shady spot or there had been no sun, then it was just too dry.  Maybe it didn't feel dry to you, but it was obviously dry enough to dry out the cap of the mushrooms.




I still don't see how those conditions could only effect 3 out of a hundred mushrooms.  When i mentioned direct sunlight i meant that the absense of it wouldn't encourage micro climate situations as much as if there were direct sunlight. 


--------------------
----------------
"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

Edited by pscyanescens (11/14/08 03:10 AM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9242320 - 11/14/08 03:06 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

LoL.  Well are you going to dry them?  Dry them all, then tell me if they are still viscid.

You're missing the point.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: CureCat]
    #9242334 - 11/14/08 03:12 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

How could they be viscid if they are dry?  Sounds like an oxymoron.

I do agree with you they are more then likely all the same species.  But when there are two odd balls that look different when moist and then still look different when dry it makes me wonder.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9242346 - 11/14/08 03:19 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

These are cubensis.


These are cubensis.


These are cubensis.


One species can be VERY variable. If you really think those are different then look at them under the scope.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #9242352 - 11/14/08 03:22 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Blimey: Were all those Cubensis growing in the same bed at the same time?

EDIT> One answer i haven't gotten, which i have been thinking in my head, is it could be a small piece of mushroom evolution i may be witnessing.  I mean it could be a possibility right?


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Edited by pscyanescens (11/14/08 03:25 AM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9242635 - 11/14/08 05:31 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CureCat said:
pscyanescens - You're thinking too hard.  Seriously.




I agree with Curecat. You are thinking too far into it.

Every mushroom, every organism for that matter is a step in evolution.

All living things tend to have phenotypes. A mushroom patch can have literally thousands of mating pairs which exhibit different traits within the same patch.

Once again, if you think they are different then look under a microscope. If the microscopic features are also different then they are a different mushroom. I'll bet that the microscopic features are identical.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #9243028 - 11/14/08 09:07 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The morphological variations you've noticed are due to a combination of genetics and the unique micro-climate in different areas of the patch.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: HerbBaker]
    #9243368 - 11/14/08 10:44 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

warriorsoul said:
The morphological variations you've noticed are due to a combination of genetics and the unique micro-climate in different areas of the patch.






That sounds about right.  Like i said i don't really doubt that their all one species, i was just looking for a plausable explanation.  I suppose when they name this mushroom they can add possible striation to this new species ID factors.

Curecat: Just check the mushroom sitting over night.  Nope, no striation reappearing. I guess the test doesn't work.  Have you tried it yourself? It's funny the three mushrooms i set aside are almost completely dry and show more striation then the one i put in water over night. I guess these three are gunuinely different morphologically from the rest of the patch. :smirk:


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9244466 - 11/14/08 02:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

hey OP: do you know anything about isolating strains of mycelium on a petri dish? or how spores even work?
a + and a - spore meet their fuzz, which creates super fuzz, which binds with other major pathways of super fuzz and makes ultra mega super fruit :wink:
if 10,000,000 spores germinate on the woodchips, thats a lot of different variable genetics in the pile.

i have a patch of cyans in santa cruz that fruits both pygmy cyans and large towering cyans

and cyanofibrillosa hasnt had a confirmed find in years, cyanofriscosas are said to have the same charactristics of cyanescens spores, only much larger.
did you know another new psilocybe native so far only to southern california which resembles cyans, has just been named?

theres a lot of different things popping up lately, new actives being found every day.

just go back and check on the patch, take some habitat photos, and make your own patch of it to observe more privately. if it turns out its something uknown, then hell yeah!

to me they look like friscosas, ive never seen them in person myself, but they look like many of the pictures ive seen.
they do look a little different, but not by much at all.

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: CptnGarden]
    #9246521 - 11/14/08 09:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

pscyanescens - Yes, I have done that test before.  Maybe yours needed more time or maybe they were no longer fresh enough, I don't know.

I don't see the point in providing potential explanations, as they would be totally random and most would be impossible to prove one way or another.

I'm done trying to explain how morphology works right now.  There are ways to test certain hypotheses, though not everything can always be fully accounted for.  Without some serious testing, that could take years and many populations in different micro-climates, it is going to be difficult to know exactly how any individual will manifest and why...  And even then, there will be some which defy the theories tested.
Guess work is not how I choose to explain the world around me.  I personally prefer to focus on more definitive science.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: CureCat]
    #9246684 - 11/14/08 10:01 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Curecat: it is definitely still fresh.  It rejuvenated quite well.  It looks like a brand new mushroom, nice and moist with absolutely no striation.  Have you done the test with friscosas? I doubt this test works with every mushroom, maybe it isn't quite as accurate as you hoped.  How many days again should i soak it in the water before i see some reappearing striation? 

The 3 mushrooms on my counter have probably lost about 65-70% of their water weight now and i still see dominant striation around the edges. The others were not like this moist or dry.  Maybe it isn't something that appears and reappears in a matter of hours after all? And like i said a many times before i am not doubting these are friscosas, I am merely pointed out differences i noticed between individual mushrooms that stood out amongst the rest.  I figure this may help the cautious mushroom hunter in the future not worry so much about proper ID.

Anyways thanks for the good responses everyone.  I do understand how spores work and i guess if striation is something that can or can not be present on a specific mushroom, then maybe it should be noted as an ID factor for those of us extra cautious mushroom hunters.  And whats wrong with being too cautious? 

Quote:


just go back and check on the patch, take some habitat photos, and make your own patch of it to observe more privately. if it turns out its something unknown, then hell yeah!




What i like to say is when in doubt, then grow it out! Good advice. The best way to determine a species is if you can grow it out under its desired conditions on its preferred media and then pick fresh samples to do your ID. I know it's overkill but at that point you could be 1000% sure what you got.

Also my friend ate 1 medium sized mushroom and a half of a cap this morning thinking he would be cool to go to work.  Boy was he wrong, he said these mushrooms may be more potent then the Cyans i bring back from SF!  So at this point i would completely call off the idea these could be Cyanofibrillosa.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9246696 - 11/14/08 10:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Great job man!!
I never heard of those growing in cali


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Edited by Theylikethatshit (11/14/08 10:03 PM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Theylikethatshit]
    #9246737 - 11/14/08 10:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks man i appreciate it.  It wasn't really my find though, i wish it were.  I am just making sure it is what it is and i get some of course for doing proper ID. This is why i am so cautious.

Also I thought with the name 'friscosa' they originated in cali?


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9246816 - 11/14/08 10:32 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Your welcome, and pat your buddy on the back for me!
And im not sure about the name, I guess it could be.
This is one species I am curious to learn more about...
Curecat? :tongue2:


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Theylikethatshit]
    #9246950 - 11/14/08 11:16 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Theylikethatshit: I will be sure to do that.  It is a species I hope to see a lot more of in the future.  Especially with it's potency levels!  And hopefully being it's more adaptable to warmer weather i am hoping where i live they might be a little easier to cultivate then cyans would.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9247535 - 11/15/08 02:37 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Theylikethatshit - The mushrooms we refer to as "Cyanofriscosa" or "Friscosa" are originally documented from the San Francisco Bay Area of California.

The story is a long one, and still up for debate, so if you would like some background on the species, I recommend typing those names into the Message Board search or simply on google (which will certainly redirect you to many pages here).


pscyanescens - Can you get photos of the dried mushrooms with the striate margins, as well as a photo of the mushroom you have been soaking in water?  If I see photos, I might be able to describe the discrepancy, or perhaps it will be something novel that I have not seen.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: CureCat]
    #9247743 - 11/15/08 05:30 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CureCat said:
Quote:

a1dirkscience said:
still gonna stick with cyanofibrillosa at this time



You can think whatever you want, but the fact of the matter is that I don't know of any verified Ps. cyanofibrillosa finds in California.  I don't even know of any verified finds at all, anywhere, since the type collection from Washington.
Soooo, you can think that's what they are, but it would be a very rare find.




Psilocybe cyanofibrillosa were found in BC a number of years ago by a member here.  He mailed me the spore print and the spores checked.  No other materials were examined.  Evidently they were quite weak.  I assumed then and now they were actually the real deal.

On dealing with anomalies though, it is a poor scientist that dismisses them out-of-hand.  While it is true, as the doctors say, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras, often scientific discoveries are missed because of the cavalier attitude towards anomalies.  Inquistiveness is the driving force behind science; anything that stifles it, stifles scientific inquiry.

Having said that, I assume, as you do, that these are friscos.  The striations are hard to explain.  As you suggested, further investigation is warranted.

I have noticed the same anomalies in Galerina only I never investigated it beyond noticing it.  I assumed it was purely a humidity factor.  :ohwell:


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9248115 - 11/15/08 09:26 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Curecat:  I will see if i can get my camera back today.  I let my friend borrow it, because it is actually half his.

Quote:

On dealing with anomalies though, it is a poor scientist that dismisses them out-of-hand.  While it is true, as the doctors say, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras, often scientific discoveries are missed because of the cavalier attitude towards anomalies.




I couldn't agree more.  Also thanks for sharing about the fibs.  I am glad to see someone out there has a little experience with these mushrooms.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9250332 - 11/15/08 04:39 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

OK i got the camera back.  Here are the pics.

Striation with dry caps, same caps that were showing striation prior to drying. No disappearing reappearing striation for these guys.

I kept close watch. But then again if it could happen in a matter of hours then i guess it could have happened while i was sleeping? :rofl:




This is what the rest of the dry caps look like.


And this is Curecats water test.  I think it has been about 36 hours since i put them in the water.

And here are the original fresh mushrooms pics showing striation.


I think it is safe to say that it is more likely to be a genetic variation due to multiple spore germination rather then the mythical case of disappearing reappearing striation.


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Edited by pscyanescens (11/15/08 04:42 PM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9253748 - 11/16/08 06:59 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


I have noticed the same anomalies in Galerina only I never investigated it beyond noticing it.  I assumed it was purely a humidity factor.  :ohwell:




That makes sense, Galerina and Psilocybe have been shown to be sister species.

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9253760 - 11/16/08 07:07 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pscyanescens said:
OK i got the camera back.  Here are the pics.

Striation with dry caps, same caps that were showing striation prior to drying. No disappearing reappearing striation for these guys.

I kept close watch. But then again if it could happen in a matter of hours then i guess it could have happened while i was sleeping? :rofl:




I think it is safe to say that it is more likely to be a genetic variation due to multiple spore germination rather then the mythical case of disappearing reappearing striation.




:lol:  I guess you put that one to rest.  :thumbup:  They are exactly as you described.  Still though, I like your idea.  When in doubt, grow it out.  If your interested and have prints from both I can examine them, measure them and post some pics.

Nice work.  :congrats:



.


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Edited by Senor_Hongos (11/16/08 03:27 PM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9254978 - 11/16/08 01:46 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pscyanescens said:
Thanks man i appreciate it.  It wasn't really my find though, i wish it were.  I am just making sure it is what it is and i get some of course for doing proper ID. This is why i am so cautious.

Also I thought with the name 'friscosa' they originated in cali?




They are CyanoFriscosas, this type of mushroom can be a bit decieving and can break its own characteristic rules. Curecat is right, when you have some experience with this mushroom you become more accustomed to its varying cap shapes and colors.

As far as the name goes. I can clear that up right now. I came up with it on this board a few years ago. Before, they were this unknown bay area species until I coined the named 'cyanofriscosa,' and ever since it has stuck.
Don't believe me? Do a thorough search of the boards it's all in there.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Quankus]
    #9255039 - 11/16/08 02:01 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

For my own satisfaction I did the search myself.

the name CyanoFriscosa born on 01/11/06 06:32 PM. 2 years and 9 months ago.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5168716#5168716


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Quankus]
    #9255433 - 11/16/08 03:28 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Nice work.  :thumbup:


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9256381 - 11/16/08 06:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quankus: That's funny.  What people here are telling me is this picture i took is not cyanofibrillosa.


What they are telling me is that they are firscosas.  I took this picture January 3rd 2006.  So if this is true, even though you unofficially named the species it looks as if i was the first to find and take pictures of it :laugh:

I took it to the Santa Cruz fungus fair in 2006 and the people at the ID booth dubbed this mushroom Psilocybe Cyanofibrillosa, that is the only reason for the caption.

Quote:

Curecat is right, when you have some experience with this mushroom you become more accustomed to its varying cap shapes and colors.




I thought that she was arguing moisture content and micro climate conditions while i was the one arguing genetic variations and individuality's?


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9256470 - 11/16/08 06:59 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pscyanescens said:
Quankus: That's funny.  What people here are telling me is this picture i took is not cyanofibrillosa.


What they are telling me is that they are firscosas.  I took this picture January 3rd 2006.  So if this is true, even though you unofficially named the species it looks as if i was the first to find and take pictures of it :laugh:






That is pretty cool.  :thumbup:  Evidently, the date your camera was set to was off though.  That picture was taken 1/5/2006 with a DSC-W5. :wink:

Also evident is the length of experience you have had with these mushrooms.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9256540 - 11/16/08 07:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Senor Hongos: Well back when this picture was taken i don't think anyone had any experience with this mushroom :wink:

And that is strange, i marked 1-3-06 on my upload folder.  Maybe i didn't take the pictures off the camera until two days later.  That doesn't sound likely though, i usually rush to the computer to do my ID. How did you figure the date again?


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9256656 - 11/16/08 07:40 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Most photographs carry a digital signature that tells the date the photograph was took and what camera was used.  Any photograph on your computer will give that information when you place the cursor over it.  Yours was a historic photo, so I saved it.  Then I checked the datestamp.

I use this feature to organize my mushroom photographs.  Sometimes I download them and label them incorrectly.  I suspect you might have done that as it is easy to do.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9256684 - 11/16/08 07:44 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Wow it works on my computer too!  Thats pretty cool. I guess you are right i must have miss labled the whole folder.  Good stuff to know.  Thanks Senor Hongos!

So i do have the first verified picture of this species?


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9256798 - 11/16/08 08:05 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

There is no way to know that unless all the Cyans in previous photos were examined.  I would say yours is the first in a sense.

Nice job!  :thumbup:


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9256905 - 11/16/08 08:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

:grin:


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9257047 - 11/16/08 08:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I believe Joshua has been finding them since 2003 if I'm not mistaken.

Also they have been documented as far back as the 70's I believe.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #9257101 - 11/16/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


I believe Joshua has been finding them since 2003 if I'm not mistaken.

Also they have been documented as far back as the 70's I believe.




Why have they taken so long to get recognition then?  I think it is kinda funny that me and quankus both first found them within a week apart from each other.

Can i see the pics?  Do you have any references i could read from back in the 1970's?

Edit: what i really don't understand is why cyanofibrillosa has been recognized and named by the scientific community with next to no finds , but this friscosa has been known about supposedly since the 1970's and still has no name or scientific recognition, with multiple posts and pictures of gatherings.  I know people have sent samples to MSSF.  Why are the fibs named but friscosa is not?


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

Edited by pscyanescens (11/16/08 09:02 PM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9257768 - 11/16/08 11:32 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pscyanescens said:
Quankus: That's funny.  What people here are telling me is this picture i took is not cyanofibrillosa.


What they are telling me is that they are firscosas.  I took this picture January 3rd 2006.  So if this is true, even though you unofficially named the species it looks as if i was the first to find and take pictures of it :laugh:


I took it to the Santa Cruz fungus fair in 2006 and the people at the ID booth dubbed this mushroom Psilocybe Cyanofibrillosa, that is the only reason for the caption.

Quote:

Curecat is right, when you have some experience with this mushroom you become more accustomed to its varying cap shapes and colors.




I thought that she was arguing moisture content and micro climate conditions while i was the one arguing genetic variations and individuality's?




-you definitely weren't the first to find or take pictures of these mushrooms. Suimush found some before I did and I'm sure auwiea has been finding em in the bay area for a long, long time now.

-your mushrooms look like cyanofriscosas to me too

-the cap's appear different from one another within the same patch because certain mushrooms are drying out moreso than others. the difference in cap size and shape/wavyness next to cyans is what I believe are genetic mutations/evolution and adaption to its environment.

-I do agree with you on the lack of official documentation on these mushrooms. We've all been wondering why nothing has come out recently stating its offical status or name.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Quankus]
    #9257804 - 11/16/08 11:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Still does anyone have any pictures that prove it? :smile:  I know i am probably not the first but so far i have the earliest pictures posted to porve it , at least to my knowledge.

Quote:

the cap's appear different from one another within the same patch because certain mushrooms are drying out moreso than others




I thought Curecats water test proved that wrong?  And my pictures of dry striated caps? I am pretty sure water content doesn't have anything to do with the striation at this point. I would much rather call it a individuality if not a genetic variation.

PS> where is Auweia? I figured he would have something to add to this thread.


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

Edited by pscyanescens (11/16/08 11:43 PM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9264236 - 11/18/08 01:28 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

SO my mushroom mentor, whom i do all my active hunting with (and sometimes edibles too) has brought to my attention something that Paul Stamets mentioned to us at a lecture he gave last year at the Oakland fungus fair.  He said at the exact same museum that he was giving the lecture at, that David A. (i blieve) planted and sucessfully cultivated Psilocybe Cyanofibrillosas all around the oakland messuem in the wood chipped garden beds.  And for years they couldn't stop the spread of this species.

Quote:

You can think whatever you want, but the fact of the matter is that I don't know of any verified Ps. cyanofibrillosa finds in California.  I don't even know of any verified finds at all, anywhere, since the type collection from Washington.
Soooo, you can think that's what they are, but it would be a very rare find.




Curecat: correct me if I am wrong,  I know you were there at the lecture, i saw you.

So in the case of the Cyanofibrillosas not being present at all in the Bay Area i think that we can put an end to that myth.  I don't know anyone more credible then Paul Stamets himself.

I am not saying these mushrooms are fibs, but i don't think that it should be totally discredited for all psilocybe mushrooms in our area.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9264350 - 11/18/08 02:18 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Not to speak for CureCat but:

Quote:

CureCat said:
I showed up a bit later than i had intended today, on account of falling asleep before i could set my alarm clock.  Never the less, I had fun.  Showed up around 2:30-3pm, just in time for Pauls presentation on Hallucinogenic Mushrooms.
It was a very amusing lecture, though much of the info was familiar. 
One comment he made (and subsequently referred to later into the speech) had alan, suimish, peter and i squirm a little.  I wrote down what he said right away, so that I would not forget and accidentally misrepresent what he said.  I am confident that this quote is an accurate dictation.  If peter, suimish, alan, or laska disagree, please speak up.

He was showing a photo of his hat with Ps. cubensis spore printing on the brim, and explaining the purpose of dispersing Psilocybe spores in this manner, when taking long trips such as those that would require an airplane.

"To this day 10 years ago, I came to the Fungus Fair after having hunted cyanofibrillosa  in Washington State.  In 2002 someone found cyanofibrillosa growing here at the Oakland Museum, and it has since spread all over the Bay Area, and is quite common."

We stuck around for the audience questions.  Accordingly, Peter raised the fact that the mushrooms recently being found in the Bay Area are NOT Ps. cyanofibrillosa as originally suspected.  Paul interrupted with "Yes, but you said they were semilanceata", Peter said that he never said that, and Paul insisted that he did.  Peter was interrupted with "Yes, and you told me that they looked like semilanceata" about 5 or 6 times while he was trying to explain to Paul his reasons for concluding that they were not Ps. cyanofibrillosa, and was finally able to include that microscopically, they resemble Ps. cyanescens.
Needless to say, Paul was surprising terse and almost hostile in his response, in contrast with how he addressed other audience members.

As expected, the fibs looking like semis deal stemmed from a misunderstanding or foggy memory of what Peter had communicated to Paul, mentioning that he noticed at least a superficial similarity between the microscopic characteristics of Ps. semilanceata and Ps. cyanofibrillosa (the real one, relative to the type specimens).

It was suggested that the discourteous counter most likely resulted from being questioned/disputed publicly.  However, I excuse that as irrelevent, as anyone should be able to back up the assertions they make publicly, ESPECIALLY when they are in a position of high regard and influence.  I worry that we will be hearing this unsettled Psilocybe species increasingly described as Ps. cyanofibrillosa in the Bay Area, as a result of this anecdote.

:rolleyes:
It's frustrating.




As a former business associate of Paul's and some familiarity with Peter (if she's referring to Werner), I decline to comment other than to say there are two sides to every story.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9264377 - 11/18/08 02:27 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Pscyanescens, I re-posted this for weiliiiiiiii , now I will re-post it for you.  The original post was made in last year's Bay Area thread after Paul's presentation at the Oakland Museum last year.


Quote:

weiliiiiiii said:
Quote:

CureCat said:
Quote:

drama said:
I am reading Paul Stamets' book Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms and he actually used the term ejaculation in the context above.  And, well, Paul Stamets can do no wrong ;-)   



OH.  Well that's your problem right there. 

I shouldn't get started on a rant right now, suffice to say I've met Paul and we don't see eye to eye on matters of scientific validity.




I would love to hear about that, seriously

Im sure you dont want to but PM me the story, im very interested in what was said

ive heard several people say that about him, thats why





Quote:

CureCat said:
Well that is because it is true.  I'm not holding a grudge, I just don't like hippies masquerading as scientists.

My friend who worked for him was all "Oh yeah, if you move up to Olympia let me know and I'll hook you up with a job with Paul".  My reply was along the lines of "Eehehehe....  Yeeeaaah, I don't know if that is such a good idea.  You see, Paul has a hard time with scrutiny.  He lets his ego get in the way of his objectivity.  I think the guy is extremely creative and I really admire his work and ingenuity in the field, but I don't think I could work with him."
After explaining, my friend was something like "Oh.  Yeah, sounds like you have a grasp of his disposition...  You probably wouldn't want to work with him, it might drive you crazy."

Let me dig up a post from last year....


Quote:

CureCat said:
I showed up a bit later than i had intended today, on account of falling asleep before i could set my alarm clock.  Never the less, I had fun.  Showed up around 2:30-3pm, just in time for Pauls presentation on Hallucinogenic Mushrooms.
It was a very amusing lecture, though much of the info was familiar. 
One comment he made (and subsequently referred to later into the speech) had alan, suimish, peter and i squirm a little.  I wrote down what he said right away, so that I would not forget and accidentally misrepresent what he said.  I am confident that this quote is an accurate dictation.  If peter, suimish, alan, or laska disagree, please speak up.

He was showing a photo of his hat with Ps. cubensis spore printing on the brim, and explaining the purpose of dispersing Psilocybe spores in this manner, when taking long trips such as those that would require an airplane.

"To this day 10 years ago, I came to the Fungus Fair after having hunted cyanofibrillosa  in Washington State.  In 2002 someone found cyanofibrillosa growing here at the Oakland Museum, and it has since spread all over the Bay Area, and is quite common."

We stuck around for the audience questions.  Accordingly, Peter raised the fact that the mushrooms recently being found in the Bay Area are NOT Ps. cyanofibrillosa as originally suspected.  Paul interrupted with "Yes, but you said they were semilanceata", Peter said that he never said that, and Paul insisted that he did.  Peter was interrupted with "Yes, and you told me that they looked like semilanceata" about 5 or 6 times while he was trying to explain to Paul his reasons for concluding that they were not Ps. cyanofibrillosa, and was finally able to include that microscopically, they resemble Ps. cyanescens.
Needless to say, Paul was surprising terse and almost hostile in his response, in contrast with how he addressed other audience members.

As expected, the fibs looking like semis deal stemmed from a misunderstanding or foggy memory of what Peter had communicated to Paul, mentioning that he noticed at least a superficial similarity between the microscopic characteristics of Ps. semilanceata and Ps. cyanofibrillosa (the real one, relative to the type specimens).

It was suggested that the discourteous counter most likely resulted from being questioned/disputed publicly.  However, I excuse that as irrelevent, as anyone should be able to back up the assertions they make publicly, ESPECIALLY when they are in a position of high regard and influence.  I worry that we will be hearing this unsettled Psilocybe species increasingly described as Ps. cyanofibrillosa in the Bay Area, as a result of this anecdote.

:rolleyes:
It's frustrating.







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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9264383 - 11/18/08 02:31 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Oh...  Thanks Senor.

Yes, Peter Werner.  :smile:

pscyanescens - I have a Friscosa cap which was not striate when collected (totally tan) soaking in water right now....  It has been in water for 15 minutes and the margins are already showing striations.  :confused:

I'll do it again with another cap for a before and after shot.

Edited by CureCat (11/18/08 03:38 AM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9265703 - 11/18/08 12:34 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So in the case of the Cyanofibrillosas not being present at all in the Bay Area i think that we can put an end to that myth.




The mushrooms that Paul was talking about are clearly Psilocybe cyanofriscosa.  He may or may not have brought them, but if he did bring them he didn't know what he was bringing. 

Paul's insistence that they are Psilocybe cyanofibrillosa is rather disturbing. 

Quote:

I don't know anyone more credible then Paul Stamets himself.




Paul is a great mycologist and a cool guy but he is no Psilocybe expert.  He has not worked on Psilocybe at all in the ten years since he wrote his book.  Paul is tired of being called a hippie and peer pressure is one of the reasons he doesn't care to study Psilocybe any more. 

Four people who actually do study Psilocybe and are much more credible on the subject are Jan Boravica, Workman, Gaston Guzman and Peter Werner.

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9265814 - 11/18/08 12:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Wow i am shocked!  So all you guys don't think Paul is a credible source. I mean that was the long and short of that huge post right? I am not saying your wrong, i am just saying I am shocked. And disapointed in Paul if thats all true.

Quote:

pscyanescens - I have a Friscosa cap which was not striate when collected (totally tan) soaking in water right now....  It has been in water for 15 minutes and the margins are already showing striations. 

I'll do it again with another cap for a before and after shot.




So i don't see why you think my collection and yours is exactly the same just because you found some mushrooms that you call friscosas.  I mean the whole point was that mine were individuals out a group of 100.  I don't know how or why you think you have the same odd balls as me.  I mean the water test i conducted clearly shown in the pictures that they dried striate and when other caps were remoistened the did not become striate even after 36 hours!  So why would you doing a test have anything to do with my type collection? It isn't relevant to my specific find.

And i never said your test doesn't work ever, i just said it failed for my collection.

I would like to see the pics though.  Especially if you have caps that are miost and striate and moist but not striate like my caps. And i would epecially like to see a dry striated cap in your collection as well.  Then it might hold a little more validity. But still two different collections = two different mushroom genetics. I don't see how it could be the same.


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

Edited by pscyanescens (11/18/08 12:57 PM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9266243 - 11/18/08 02:28 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Wow i am shocked!  So all you guys don't think Paul is a credible source. I mean that was the long and short of that huge post right? I am not saying your wrong, i am just saying I am shocked. And disapointed in Paul if thats all true.




I didn't say that at all.  I just said he was wrong about this one cyanofibrillosa thing.  And that he doesn't actively study Psilocybes anymore and hasn't shown much interest in them recently.  The talk he gave on Psilocybes last year was excellent. 

99% of the stuff Paul Stamets says is completely correct and really interesting.  Everyone says the wrong thing at least 1% of the time.

All his books are excellent, including Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World.  I hope he revises it in a few years after the dust settles from the Guzman monograph.


There are no mycologists that I always agree with 100% except for ToxicMan.

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9266382 - 11/18/08 02:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I thought you handled that diplomatically and deftly.  Well said and well done.  (not that you need my approval)


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9266482 - 11/18/08 03:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pscyanescens said:
Wow i am shocked!  So all you guys don't think Paul is a credible source. I mean that was the long and short of that huge post right? I am not saying your wrong, i am just saying I am shocked. And disapointed in Paul if thats all true.

Quote:

pscyanescens - I have a Friscosa cap which was not striate when collected (totally tan) soaking in water right now....  It has been in water for 15 minutes and the margins are already showing striations. 

I'll do it again with another cap for a before and after shot.




So i don't see why you think my collection and yours is exactly the same just because you found some mushrooms that you call friscosas.  I mean the whole point was that mine were individuals out a group of 100.  I don't know how or why you think you have the same odd balls as me.  I mean the water test i conducted clearly shown in the pictures that they dried striate and when other caps were remoistened the did not become striate even after 36 hours!  So why would you doing a test have anything to do with my type collection? It isn't relevant to my specific find.

And i never said your test doesn't work ever, i just said it failed for my collection.

I would like to see the pics though.  Especially if you have caps that are miost and striate and moist but not striate like my caps. And i would epecially like to see a dry striated cap in your collection as well.  Then it might hold a little more validity. But still two different collections = two different mushroom genetics. I don't see how it could be the same.




The relevancy comes from the fact that both collections are Friscosa, beyond that there is none in my opinion.  As I said in your variation thread, the only way to test whether this is a qualitative or quantitative variation is to grow them and test for the specific, obvious morphological differences.  With a population as large as yours it is more probable it would yield some anomalous variations.  As an example, when a large fruiting of specimens occurs, either in the wild or in culture, the higher the odds for anomalous forms.  Sporeless mushrooms and other anomalies have regularly come from large fruitings in the wild.  My company used to market a sporeless WineCap culture that was captured from a large fruiting.

I encourage you to grow them out and look for the anomaly.  That is the only way to know with relative certainty.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9268126 - 11/18/08 06:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

So what you are saying is in my case it is more likely to be an anomaly or a variation rather then a moisture content factor right?

And i will do my best to grow them out.  But unfortunately like you seen in my pictures the caps are dry so i am pretty sure sterile cloning is no longer an option.  I will keep the caps separate however and do my best. I will give some of those striated caps back to my friend A1 who has a lot more knowledge and success in the past with this sort of thing then I.

EDIT:>

Curecat: If we do the same test with the same species and end up with different results then what does that mean?  I mean your directions seem simple enough. 
I think it means our collections differ from each other, unless there is another variable we are not considering?  Tap water, spring water, mineral water, altitude, atmospheric pressure, etc...?  To me it sounds like our collections being different would be the most probable answer to us coming up with different results. What do you think?

Our find was unique in one aspect.... Nobody has claimed to find these mushrooms as far south as San Jose until my post.  Why couldn't they be unique in other aspects?

Wouldn't a change in this mushrooms geography encourage the speed of its evolution as well?


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

Edited by pscyanescens (11/18/08 07:55 PM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9268880 - 11/18/08 08:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Not to speak for CC and myself but I would answer yes to all of your questions.  I am sorry to hear you didn't take a print from the striate ones.  I print everything I find for that reason, especially anomalies.

:goodluck:


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9269021 - 11/18/08 09:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Good to hear. Thanks again Senor_Hongos you have proven to be quite helpful.

And they were printed of course, but i didn't think far enough to saperate them from the others.:sad:  So i have no idea which prints belong to the striated ones.  Can't you still obtain spores from the dried mushroom caps? 

Just another thing that my good friend A1 mentions is that he specifically remembers Paul Stamets taking credit for the cultivation of the fibs outside the museum in Oakland.  I don't quite remember but he seems pretty confident.  Does anyone else remember this?


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

Edited by pscyanescens (11/18/08 09:05 PM)

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9270553 - 11/19/08 01:40 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Curecat: If we do the same test with the same species and end up with different results then what does that mean?  I mean your directions seem simple enough.
I think it means our collections differ from each other, unless there is another variable we are not considering?  Tap water, spring water, mineral water, altitude, atmospheric pressure, etc...?  To me it sounds like our collections being different would be the most probable answer to us coming up with different results. What do you think?



I think the difference is phenotypic.  I have brown eyes, reddish hair, and pale skin.  Some people have dark skin, blue eyes, or black hair.  The impression I'm getting from you is that you think that the striation represents some durastic genetic inconsistency from the mushrooms without striation. 

Considering the range of variation among the human race, dogs, and numerous other species, is the striation or lack there of, within a "patch" that significant to suspect a separate, distinct organism???




Quote:

Our find was unique in one aspect.... Nobody has claimed to find these mushrooms as far south as San Jose until my post.  Why couldn't they be unique in other aspects?

Wouldn't a change in this mushrooms geography encourage the speed of its evolution as well?



They could be unique in some aspects, but I doubt they are fruiting bodies from a separate organism, much less a separate species.

Geography in and of itself does not usually encourage evolution.  There are many, MANY factors which may contribute to an evolutionary divergence.  Just being isolated from distant populations for many generations can cause divergence, along with environmental factors.




Quote:

Just another thing that my good friend A1 mentions is that he specifically remembers Paul Stamets taking credit for the cultivation of the fibs outside the museum in Oakland.  I don't quite remember but he seems pretty confident.  Does anyone else remember this?




YES.  I do remember this, and it made me bristle.
He claimed that he must have somehow brought Ps. cyanofibrillosa spores over with him from Washington, and that the first Bay Area finds were made at the Oakland Museum, and spread like wild fire since. 

And you know, since he is certainly the only person from Washington who visits the Bay Area, he must have been responsible for introducing Fibs here.

That is bad reasoning anyway, not to mention the fact that they are in no way Ps. cyanofibrillosa.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9270758 - 11/19/08 03:14 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pscyanescens said:
Good to hear. Thanks again Senor_Hongos you have proven to be quite helpful.

And they were printed of course, but i didn't think far enough to saperate them from the others.:sad:  So i have no idea which prints belong to the striated ones.  Can't you still obtain spores from the dried mushroom caps? 






Spores are often taken from the stem just underneath the cap for examination.  The spores in my green staining Pholiota were obtained from there.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9272928 - 11/19/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pscyanescens said:

Our find was unique in one aspect.... Nobody has claimed to find these mushrooms as far south as San Jose until my post.  Why couldn't they be unique in other aspects?

Wouldn't a change in this mushrooms geography encourage the speed of its evolution as well?




dude, I'm in Monterey, 60 miles south of San Jose. I've been finding em ever since I got here in 05.


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Quankus]
    #9272967 - 11/19/08 03:44 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

:lol:


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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: CureCat]
    #9273115 - 11/19/08 04:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

when i was living in santa cruz i was finding them from 04-07, and had no clue they were another kind of mushroom, i just thought they looked like dried out cyans and attributed it to being in a drier location than my other santa cruz cyan patches.

and santa cruz is south of san jose too...


the only thing that makes this find so "unique" is not that they were found "south", but that they were found in san jose of all places :lol:
san jose is flat, hot, dry, and UGLY.
if i were a mushroom i would rather skip an evolutionary cycle than grow in san jose.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: CptnGarden]
    #9273741 - 11/19/08 05:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

the only thing that makes this find so "unique" is not that they were found "south", but that they were found in san jose of all places :lol:
san jose is flat, hot, dry, and UGLY.
if i were a mushroom i would rather skip an evolutionary cycle than grow in san jose.




QFT.

I have heard one other report from san jose, a cube grower at UCSC had a friend that would pick "cyans" on wood chips in san jose.

I have a completely baseless theory that cyans/friscosas do a lot better by the ocean and don't extend inland very far at all. 

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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: CureCat]
    #9273897 - 11/19/08 06:28 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Off topic but, Happy Birthday!  :happybday:


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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: Quankus]
    #9275991 - 11/19/08 11:39 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quankus said:
dude, I'm in Monterey, 60 miles south of San Jose. I've been finding em ever since I got here in 05.




Wow!  I am very glad to hear this.  It gives me much hope in cultivation.  As far as Cyans go I have been told that they don't extend much further south then San Francisco.  Well apparently who ever told me this was uninformed.  My friend in Santa Cruz just had success with growing Cyans and this was the furthest south i have heard them growing.  So i somehow figured that this new species was the somewhat similar geography wise?

Have you found cyans in Monterey as well?


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

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InvisibleCureCat
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: pscyanescens]
    #9276268 - 11/20/08 12:25 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Alan - I don't think the idea is baseless.  Observation of the species range confirms that they don't extend very far inland, so inferring that the reason is because the species prefer something about the coast doesn't seem "baseless" to me.

Senor Hongos - Thanks!  I'm 22 today!

pscyanescens - Ps. cyanescens has also been documented in Los Angeles this year, and I have heard first hand anecdote from a pretty reliable source that they were once found in San Diego during El Nino.


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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Cyanofibrillosa or Friscosa? If there fibs they sure look potent! [Re: CureCat]
    #9276416 - 11/20/08 12:56 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Wow.  I wouldn't think it would support the right temps down there.  But then again you never know. I heard the year El Nino was around there were Cyans found in San Francisco in massive numbers and record height. Also an increase in potency was reported by my good friend A1. From about 6-8" tall if i remember correctly. He compared 5 mushrooms back then to 10 or more of the cyans we find now a days.

EDIT:

Oh yea and Happy Birthday.  I thought you were older?  But i guess that is a good thing. I think it was your age where i began to wish i would stop getting older. Creeping up on this thirty is starting to scare me. :stoned:


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

Edited by pscyanescens (11/20/08 01:00 AM)

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