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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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.
    #9224999 - 11/11/08 03:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

.


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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 11:27 PM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9225028 - 11/11/08 03:35 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think the universe follows logical rules.  They may not makes intuitive sense, but the universe has been shown to follow them 100% of the time.

Most of these questions your asking are not in science's domain, so I can see why you would be disconcerted with science if you expect it to answer them for you.

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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: DieCommie]
    #9225049 - 11/11/08 03:39 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

.


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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 11:28 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9225050 - 11/11/08 03:39 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

No you don't have to resort to god. Unless this all scares the shit out of you.

We are just to small (finite) to get a handle on the infinite.

Refocus your efforts on having a good, fun time during your short stay.

Really the only reason you need to know everything is if you are afraid of being out of control (dying etc.). And the fact is you can know almost nothing. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: Icelander]
    #9225061 - 11/11/08 03:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 11:28 PM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9225099 - 11/11/08 03:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The foundation of logic is causality?  Ive never heard of that.  I thought the foundation of a logical structure was its axioms.

Im not sure what gravity has to do with it, just because we cant model and predict every phenomenon doesnt mean its not following logical rules (or other aspects of the universe follow logical rules).  I dont think any of these logical rules have been shown to not be followed, that is they have always been observed to be followed:  The schrodinger equation, thermodynamic equations, maxwell equations...

Now they cant explain inflationary universe, but they never claimed to do that.  They are however 100% consistent with what they can explain.  Their logical rules have always been observed to be followed.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9225110 - 11/11/08 03:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

1. Nothing exists.
2. Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it.
3. Even if something can be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: deCypher]
    #9225114 - 11/11/08 03:51 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

If 1. is true, why even state 2. and 3.?

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9225128 - 11/11/08 03:53 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

A good philosophy is one that attempts to cover all its bases.

Blame Gorgias for being verbose.  :shrug:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: deCypher]
    #9225167 - 11/11/08 03:59 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

So by 'cover all its bases' you mean that 1. may not be true.  Not a very convincing argument.  :shrug:

(I dont know who gorgias is, but if that 3 point argument is his Id say he better try again.  Maybe if he can come up with a paradigm where 2/3 of it doesnt require that the first 1/3 is false, Ill be interested )

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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: DieCommie]
    #9225224 - 11/11/08 04:06 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

.


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.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 03:25 PM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9225239 - 11/11/08 04:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The schrodinger equation conflicts with relativity.




Conflicts? How so?  Give me specifics for your examples, I am interested.

Quote:

Seems to me nothing is true 100% of the time.


That sounds like an impossible paradox.  Kind of like "this sentence is a lie".

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9225253 - 11/11/08 04:09 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
The schrodinger equation conflicts with relativity.

Thermodynamics equations are far from being resolved, especially with black holes.

Maxwell equations had paradoxes of their own, that were resolved by special relativity.

But now special relativity has problems on quantums cales.


Seems to me nothing is true 100% of the time.




"Everything you know is wrong" -Firesign Theater


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineDiaboleros
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9225255 - 11/11/08 04:10 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I'm extremely interested in science, I have read a lot of books, done a lot of research and also realized theres something not right.. that something doesnt' make sense. For example, according to science, light waves move on nothing, vacuum, which is just impossible. Waves need a medium to move on. Vacuum is the biggest lie ever.

This guy figured it all out, this thoery explains everything. Nothing new really, but now it all makes sense. If you're interested in science like me, you shouldn't definately read this, and a lot of things will clear up for you.
http://www.glafreniere.com/matter.htm

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OfflineTrippinNinjaBuddha
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9225274 - 11/11/08 04:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think it's very cool that you have realized that you don't have any idea what the fuck is going on :thumbsup:  This is a step surprisingly few make it to.

Life's purpose, specifically YOUR life's purpose, is up to you.  Take a look at the world and decide what idea/philosophy/energy you wish to be an expression of.  For me, it's love and interconnectedness.  What sounds good to you?


--------------------
Jumped in a river, what did I see?
Black eyed angels swimming with me
Moon full of stars and astral cars, all the figures I used to see
All my lovers were there with me
All my past and all my futures
We went to heaven in a little rowboat
There was nothing to fear and nothing to doubt

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9225276 - 11/11/08 04:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
So by 'cover all its bases' you mean that 1. may not be true.  Not a very convincing argument.  :shrug:

(I dont know who gorgias is, but if that 3 point argument is his Id say he better try again.  Maybe if he can come up with a paradigm where 2/3 of it doesnt require that the first 1/3 is false, Ill be interested )




:confused:  It's not really a three point argument, but instead an analysis of all possibilities.  Perhaps a more condensed version to your liking would be:

If anything exists, and if anything can be known about it, we still can't communicate our knowledge of it to others.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: deCypher]
    #9225291 - 11/11/08 04:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

At least that one is internally self consistent.  (of course I dont buy it, but whatever..)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9225296 - 11/11/08 04:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Why dontcha buy it?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: deCypher]
    #9225310 - 11/11/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Not a very good sales pitch.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9225317 - 11/11/08 04:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It's a philosophical statement--surely you have some reason to disagree with it other than that you don't like the way the idea was presented?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Posts: 29,258
Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: deCypher]
    #9225354 - 11/11/08 04:23 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Yea, I have a reason.  But I dont have time (or want) to research the alternative definitions for words in philosophical statements and come up with some foolproof wording to express the reason.  So, using my preexisting definition of communicate, its not consistent with what it is in fact doing (communicating about something, something being the philosophical statement).

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9225368 - 11/11/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

:lol:.  The most irrefutable argument is that which is not spoken.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: deCypher]
    #9225444 - 11/11/08 04:35 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

:shrug: What can I say... Im not very smart and you know that anything I post would just promptly picked apart.  I like debate, and dont agree with the original post so I posted my ideas on it.  But I find your statement and the prospect of debating it wholly uninteresting.

Im a simpleton, go easy on me.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9225448 - 11/11/08 04:36 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said: But I find your statement and the prospect of debating it wholly uninteresting.




Ouch.  :cryariver:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9225488 - 11/11/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Im not very smart

Hey that's my line. Not nice.:mad2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: Icelander]
    #9225522 - 11/11/08 04:46 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry, but youll have to share it with the ~3bill. people it applies too.  :tongue:

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9225696 - 11/11/08 05:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Don't panic on go easy on lucy. Take the time to prepare a nice meal. Take the time to enjoy it. Hug a friend, give some love, smile to a stranger, express yourself in creative ways. Sense is found when you relate mindfully with your environment. Remove yourself from the equation, ask why's for why's for why's, and it all falls apart doesn't it ?

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OfflineNonstop_Shroomin
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: deCypher]
    #9225723 - 11/11/08 05:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

this is why all other animals do not know of their existence. all other animals except humans just use instincts. humans are the flaw of the universe and there is no such thing as logic. it is a man-made word/concept. everything is nothing. and i am okay with that i would rather wonder than be apathetic about everything. the meaning of life....here it comes.... IS WHATEVER YOU MAKE OF IT. enjoy it and dont fall into more bullshit than you can handle. life, to me, is meant to be enjoyed to the fullest.


--------------------
:mushroom2:This just is and that's okay.:mushroom2:

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OfflineSatChitAnanda
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: deCypher]
    #9225995 - 11/11/08 06:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I came across a Zen monk who said Science will prove itself wrong in a couple hundred years, who knows, but certainly worth a good laugh. I guess it depends on how one interprets science.

I too struggled with these questions. There was a time where I rested comfortably in what I thought to be an accurate and reliable view on life. It was a very beautiful and rational point of view that was easy to hold my ground on. Then came the entheogens and Kali to crash the party. Clearly this shook the ground beneath my feet and and became increasingly less solid. Stepping outside the box is a very heroic move...

These bouts of confusion are very necessary, at least from my experience and perspective. The Dark Nights, as they have been called. To crush old thought patterns, habits, pride, the ego etc.

What I would suggest, and only a suggestion, is to lay off the Exalted states for a while. Reorient yourself with your new found knowledge... or lack of knowledge... so you can be able to clearly and effectively express these deeper truths to the world. Otherwise no one will take you seriously and this can lead to a very misanthropic and reclusive lifestyle.

Chasing only the sensual sweetness that the highs, fireworks and exalted states offer eventually leaves a bitter aftertaste. It is important to know that the exalted states are just little rehearsals or previews, opening the curtain and closing it again. This has its usefulness, but should not be abused. Once you have seen the top of the mountain, the trick is to realize where you actually are on that mountain, and not confuse yourself with actually being at the top simply because you have seen it. There is work to be done, there must be a practice.. this is the real challenge.

Perhaps take a look at Ken Wilbers work. It has helped me significantly out of my neurotic, pessimistic, anti-social state of being. He manages to bring it all together by simply stating that there is partial truth in everything. To not completely deny or buy into anything and that the universe is composed of perspectives. The work is about reowning yours.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9226482 - 11/11/08 07:17 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
Now I'm discovering that not only are all of those classical theories wrong, but there are hundreds of competing theories, all with flaws, all with reliable explanations for certain events.




Welcome to Postmodernity. Drinks are $5.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #9226598 - 11/11/08 07:32 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Two drink minimum per set?


--------------------

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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: deCypher]
    #9227781 - 11/11/08 10:49 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

.


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.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 11:28 PM)

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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9228451 - 11/12/08 01:33 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
The worst thing is, some of the most important answers to questions of origin and meaning are inherently unanswerable.




Your mistake is thinking that questions of origin and meaning are important, IMO.  The universe will work the way it is supposed to work whether you understand it or not.  Why question it?

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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9228590 - 11/12/08 02:58 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

maybe start reading something a bit more meaningful than theoretical physics. 


Here's a good one, endocrine disrupting contaminants. :wink:


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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OfflineBooby
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #9228658 - 11/12/08 03:58 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Here's a good one, endocrine disrupting contaminants.

Maybe because it's all simple chemistry is why pot can be so highly regulated. I once drank gallons of water only to make a mess in the ER. The disturbance I attributed to a strict regimen of high daily consumption of water.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: Booby]
    #9228761 - 11/12/08 05:33 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

well, if you wanna get to the nitty gritty root of EVERYTHING, physics is it.


and pot or drinking a ton of water isn't exactly what I was talking about....

http://e.hormone.tulane.edu/learning/wildlife-effects.html


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9228794 - 11/12/08 06:02 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
Diecommie, the universe has certainly not been shown to follow logical rules 100% of the time.
...
And to make matters worse, we realize that dark energy isn't enough. Dark matter is needed as well to explain how galaxies are shaped the way they are.





But that doesn't mean the universe isn't 100% logical! It just means we haven't figured out what's going on. Once we figure it out, it'll be as logical as the thermoelectric effect, or any other phenomena which seemed illogical at first. Fret not, science is still as awesome as ever :wink:


Quote:

Diaboleros said:
For example, according to science, light waves move on nothing, vacuum, which is just impossible. Waves need a medium to move on.



WHAT


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9238696 - 11/13/08 04:58 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
We pretty much know nothing. That much I have gathered from all of my research on and offline.




The only knowledge science can tell you, is which hypotheses have been demonstrated wrong.  Our best theories and models probably are wrong.  Some of them could be right, but we'll never be able to know.  The only real knowledge you can get from science is which statements about the universe are wrong.  Hypotheses and theories are not knowledge: they are statements which, to the best of our abilities, are known to be consistent with the universe.

Quote:

Every time we think we know something based on the scientific method, fundamentals that should make that something up are obscured.




Can you give an example?  You're being really vague.  I'm not sure what "fundamentals" you're talking about.  Are you sure that you're reading science articles, because usually they're pretty well written and have excellent introductions to the subject at hand.

Quote:

Why do they operate in totally different ways macroscopically and microscopically?




Who cares?  What does this have to do with how we know nothing?  You're trying to say that we know nothing while discussing the different interactions of energy and matter at macroscopic and microscopic levels.  So do we know something or not?  Just because you can't wrap your own head around it doesn't mean that it's just been made up on the spot by a monkey with a type-writer.

Quote:

What is time, and why does it pass? What is this universe, why should it exist, why not merely nothingness and nonexistance?




So what's the point of all this?  We can't answer some questions, ergo we know nothing?

Quote:

This universe seems absurd to me.




Your rambling here is absurd.

Quote:

Truth is meaningless because it seems that there is absolutely nothing that is 100% true on all scales at all times.




I don't think that there is no such thing as absolute truth.  I just think that science can't produce models of physical reality that can ever be proven 100% true.  There is no demonstrable truth in science.  Scientific theories can never be verified.  That's a limitation of how humans can go about learning.  It's not necessarily a reflection on the inherent properties of the universe.

Quote:

What is true for my situation may be false for somebody else's situation or from someone elses perspective.




No.  That's completely wrong.  Completely absolutely wrong.  Something is either true or false, not both.

Quote:

I thought on the terms of all of the classical theories behind the universe.




And let me guess, you thought that dropping acid would kill your ego and clarify the universe?  Gee how many people have believed that for no good reason whatsoever and then gone on the angrily insist that LSD and other psychedelics are wonderful learning tools?  But I digress. . .

Quote:

Is this a fruitless, absurd search for meaning? Is there ANY logic to this universe?




I really don't know.  I am happy to go on with the assumption that the universe is a logical and ordered place.  I'm not ready to accept miracles.

Quote:

What do you guys believe makes this universe what it is?




The universe, duh.

Quote:

Do I have to resort to some idea of God?




You are allowed to say that you don't know what to believe.

Quote:


I wish the universe followed logical rules.




I don't think you have a good reason for thinking that it doesn't.  Just because we haven't figured them out (if they exist) doesn't mean that there are no rules.

Quote:


We really don't know jack, it seems. We build up these awesome equations and statements of science on, quite literally, nothing




Equations and theories are not built on nothing. 

Why is it so easy for you to be in such a state of doubt that you can make these supreme proclamations that are along the lines of, "SCIENCE IS DEAD."  Absolute bullshit.  Criticize science all you want, but it's the best way we have of building working models of the world.  If science is nothing, then we may as well give up on hopes of improving the world rationally.  You take your statements too far.  Is it for dramatic effect?

Science is built ENTIRELY on experience.  That's it.  Science is about what you, me and everyone can experience.  If you want to call that "nothing" then I don't know what else there is that we should care about as a society.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: Plasmid]
    #9238716 - 11/13/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Good post.


Supernovasky, have you read anything by Karl Popper? If not, I suggest you do. Most of the confusion you seem to have about science has been addressed by Karl Popper in one way or another.

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Invisibletwo_rivers
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9251781 - 11/15/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

a logical universe... ick.. how boring.

wishing that the universe would be logical is like wishing Beethoven would have played chopsticks rather than his ninth symphony.


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Offlinehalo
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Registered: 11/01/07
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: two_rivers]
    #9252572 - 11/15/08 11:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

As far as thinking that science can't explain shit, and that we as humanity have no logical model for anything. I can only tell you that humans have been thinking that thought for quite some time now.

In fact, the Greek Philosopher Socrates once said, "True knowledge exists in knowing you know nothing."

Congratulations, you're a smart dude :smile:

If you want my opinion though I think we will figure it all out. Maybe not today or tomorrow, maybe not for a couple hundred or thousand or hundred thousand years. But eventually, at some time (if humans or whatever we are by then even operates or acknowledges time) we will understand it.

Sure we might not get it now, but we certainly have a better understanding of the universe today than the greatest and most intelligent scientific minds of 500 years ago.


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All drugs should be legal

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Registered: 10/05/08
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Re: Science is so disconcerting... Why does nothing make sense? [Re: halo]
    #9296009 - 11/23/08 05:24 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Science will never reach its goal because it is based on making measurements, and measurements cant be made infinitisimally small, or large. Thus, whatever science we do will never be able to encompass changes that occur in the whole universe.

But we can still know a lot more than we do now.

especially when it comes to understanding the brain and the mind.

Just remember that science is not the pursuit of truth - it is the pursuit of control. We wish to be able to predict how things will occur, and we also want to know how to influence the world to make it do what we want. This is what science is for, primarily.


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